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post #14671 of 22167 Old 02-18-2014, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

If you bump up the subs 6db with Elysium would that help? (This is an honest question btw)

Not only that but it may take away from this very well done surround mix may not be worth the bump in sub level! These kinds of tracks are rare these days and hard to come by. Now having said that rolleyes.gif I will try the bump to see if its indeed offenseive to the balance biggrin.gif But in the end it will not be ED wink.gif
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post #14672 of 22167 Old 02-18-2014, 03:35 PM
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I personally loved the Elysium lfe track. But hell if I could make it better. Why not lol

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post #14673 of 22167 Old 02-18-2014, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by nube View Post

You know what I'd really, really love to do? Have a data-bass like that of Ricci's data-bass.com sub measurements, but with movie PvA graphs all done digitally so the website could overlay measurements for on-the-fly comparisons like what MrKazador did in an image editor.

that would be awesome -
I was going to post something like that on your site if would be possible

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post #14674 of 22167 Old 02-18-2014, 03:38 PM
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^That would be cool and VERY interesting to see!


I take it there are no good bass films that hit today? I don't even know what came out........

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post #14675 of 22167 Old 02-18-2014, 03:38 PM
 
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FWIW, I spent the last six days exploring a "house curve." Recently, with the addition of XT32, I have been able to get an excellent flat graph but playing the volume at +/-dBfs was just too much for the wife and even a bit to loud for my needs. Hence the need for the house curve to adjust for this conundrum. I tested the house curve on her today and it was met with smiles and approval. Sounds better than a paid for movie theater.

Each of two subs are bumped +10dB over flat.

The center channel is bumped +6dB over flat.

The mains and surrounds are left at their initial flat settings.

MVC is held back to -17.5dBfs.

One sub is nearfield, three feet from the MLP and the second sub is on the equipment wall, ten feet from the MLP. Very nice.

When watching cable provided programming, the system is dialed back to each sub being bumped +3dB over flat and the center channel is bumped +3dB over flat. All other speakers have no level changes made and the MVC is usually set in the -40dBfs to -30dBfs range.

-
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post #14676 of 22167 Old 02-18-2014, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^That would be cool and VERY interesting to see!


I take it there are no good bass films that hit today? I don't even know what came out........

GPBURNS got in before I could delete my post. Not that I wanted to hide that stated desire, but I guess I didn't want to let the cat out of the bag on anything just yet. wink.gif

As for new movie measurements, I didn't get any discs for stuff releasing today.
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post #14677 of 22167 Old 02-18-2014, 03:44 PM
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Question. Doesn't panning effect sound terrible with it setup that way? If it goes from right to left it would be soft LOUD soft. That would be distracting to me. But just wondering why the necessity for a cc bump

A house curve is meant to be lfe only

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post #14678 of 22167 Old 02-18-2014, 03:45 PM
 
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post #14679 of 22167 Old 02-18-2014, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

FWIW, I spent the last six days exploring a "house curve." Recently, with the addition of XT32, I have been able to get an excellent flat graph but playing the volume at +/-dBfs was just too much for the wife and even a bit to loud for my needs. Hence the need for the house curve to adjust for this conundrum. I tested the house curve on her today and it was met with smiles and approval. Sounds better than a paid for movie theater.

Each of two subs are bumped +10dB over flat.

The center channel is bumped +6dB over flat.

The mains and surrounds are left at their initial flat settings.

MVC is held back to -17.5dBfs.

One sub is nearfield, three feet from the MLP and the second sub is on the equipment wall, ten feet from the MLP. Very nice.

When watching cable provided programming, the system is dialed back to each sub being bumped +3dB over flat and the center channel is bumped +3dB over flat. All other speakers have no level changes made and the MVC is usually set in the -40dBfs to -30dBfs range.

-


Not trying to be critical, but bumping just the center channel 6db (as far as your main 5 or 7 speakers go) and leaving the fronts and surrounds the same would severely collapse your front soundstage towards the center. That does not sound like a good thing to do at all as 6db is a huge difference to be bumping the center over your other main speakers! eek.gif

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post #14680 of 22167 Old 02-18-2014, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Thanks Nube and that all makes sense in relation to my experience. I will rent (or crack open my sealed copy redface.gif ) it again at some point and bump the level about 5-6db and I am sure this will make it a much more exciting bass film for me. cool.gif I still don't think I will be happy with the execution on a lot of the weapons sounds, but that will be a minor complaint most likely after watching this film with a sub level bump (or an overall level bump as you mention). I basically played back both EG and Elysium at the same level (Elysium was 1db louder overall volume which was just not enough to compensate for the lower bass level from what you are describing), so it makes sense looking at those graphs why I was overall much more impressed with EG. Thanks again though and great info.

The big thing is thou - there is academy standard ( not always followed) - Reference Level
and to have any kind of reference or rating system nothing can be changed
I'm not talking personal preference - which is total other ballpark
but ratings mean nothing if anything is changed
A lot a soundtracks could sound better if raise the bass -boost mid range - lower the treble - on and on
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post #14681 of 22167 Old 02-18-2014, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by nube View Post

GPBURNS got in before I could delete my post. Not that I wanted to hide that stated desire, but I guess I didn't want to let the cat out of the bag on anything just yet. wink.gif

As for new movie measurements, I didn't get any discs for stuff releasing today.

sorry
when can we delete posts ? was that recent change

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post #14682 of 22167 Old 02-18-2014, 03:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

Question. Doesn't panning effect sound terrible with it setup that way? If it goes from right to left it would be soft LOUD soft. That would be distracting to me. But just wondering why the necessity for a cc bump

A house curve is meant to be lfe only

Not being as smart as the rest of the world, I get to set our house curve anyway we want. Pretty cool when you think about it.

As to pan-n-scan, that's going depend on how far the mains and center channel are spread apart as being a transient response, our brains don't lock down the disparity but bumping the CC up this way, improves the viewer's ability to understand the dialogue much better. And FWIW, we don't notice any pan-n-scan disparity.

-
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post #14683 of 22167 Old 02-18-2014, 03:52 PM
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GPBURNS,

Yes, I agree on the reference level comment as a standard when comparing movies. However, for enjoyment, we do whatever the hell we want, and it often goes willy nilly, like boosting the LFE +10dB, etc. smile.gif

maxmercy said something important regarding this. To paraphrase him, he said he's less concerned about relative levels than he is about dynamics, extension, and execution, because the viewer can fix a levels disparity, but we can't change the rest.

As to deleting posts, it made it in sometime recently, say the last six or eight months or so, I think. It's that red X down by the edit button pencil icon.
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post #14684 of 22167 Old 02-18-2014, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by nube View Post

GPBURNS got in before I could delete my post. Not that I wanted to hide that stated desire, but I guess I didn't want to let the cat out of the bag on anything just yet. wink.gif

As for new movie measurements, I didn't get any discs for stuff releasing today.


Nice! cool.gif Lets just pretend that post never hit and if something like that just happens to happen one day, tongue.gif we will all be pleasantly surprised.


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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

Question. Doesn't panning effect sound terrible with it setup that way? If it goes from right to left it would be soft LOUD soft. That would be distracting to me. But just wondering why the necessity for a cc bump

A house curve is meant to be lfe only

Exactly. This would absolutely KILL your front soundstage!
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post #14685 of 22167 Old 02-18-2014, 03:54 PM
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Not being as smart as the rest of the world, I get to set our house curve anyway we want. Pretty cool when you think about it.

As to pan-n-scan, that's going depend on how far the mains and center channel are spread apart as being a transient response, our brains don't lock down the disparity but in bumping the CC this way, improves the ability to understand the dialogue much better. And FWIW, we don't notice anything.
All Snide comments aside, pan and scan is video FYI and if you can't hear a difference that's great. But your reasoning is wrong. We will definitely hear a difference especially a 6db difference. Why do you think the front three speakers need to be timbre matched.

But again by all means if you want to have a multi thousand dollar system and claim to be a purist, but yet completely skew what was intended. Who am I to "argue"

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post #14686 of 22167 Old 02-18-2014, 03:55 PM
 
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Not trying to be critical, but bumping just the center channel 6db (as far as your main 5 or 7 speakers go) and leaving the fronts and surrounds the same would severely collapse your front soundstage towards the center. That does not sound like a good thing to do at all as 6db is a huge difference to be bumping the center over your other main speakers! eek.gif

It works for us. Ain't that what it's all about?

FWIW, I purposely killed the sound stage a long time ago (sixteen years ago) and now have asymmetrically placed speakers to the MLP. The point, with a purposefully killed sound stage, with asymmetrically placed speakers that have been EQ'd flat, a whole new sound stage is created that can't be collapsed......unless you're in there with the purpose of collapsing the sound stage.
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post #14687 of 22167 Old 02-18-2014, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by GPBURNS View Post

The big thing is thou - there is academy standard ( not always followed) - Reference Level
and to have any kind of reference or rating system nothing can be changed
I'm not talking personal preference - which is total other ballpark
but ratings mean nothing if anything is changed
A lot a soundtracks could sound better if raise the bass -boost mid range - lower the treble - on and on


No doubt and agreed. I was talking more just from a personal enjoyment factor with that track. If bumping up the level (sub or overall) can give me a much more entertaining experience on that track, for me it is worth doing. I fully respect and understand though that some don't want to do this for various reasons including what you mention.

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post #14688 of 22167 Old 02-18-2014, 03:59 PM
 
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All Snide comments aside,

Nothing snide being posted. I'm just not a bright or clever person and the best I'll ever be considered is an incompetent old fool. Where's the snideness?
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post #14689 of 22167 Old 02-18-2014, 04:01 PM
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Nothing snide being posted. I'm just not a bright or clever person and the best I'll ever be considered is an incompetent old fool. Where's the snideness?



oh fer crissakes Bee...

at the zenith of his nadir...
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post #14690 of 22167 Old 02-18-2014, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

It works for us. Ain't that what it's all about?

FWIW, I purposely killed the sound stage a long time ago (sixteen years ago) and now have asymmetrically placed speakers to the MLP. The point, with a purposefully killed sound stage, with asymmetrically placed speakers that have been EQ'd flat, a whole new sound stage is created that can't be collapsed......unless you're in there with the purpose of collapsing the sound stage.



I have no idea what you are talking about here, sorry. If your front 3 speakers were all hitting the same level at your listening position and then you bump your center channel by a whopping 6db, you have absolutely killed and collapsed your front soundstage. If a plane flys across the screen from left to right, it will hit your FL speaker at one volume then hit your center speaker at THIS VOLUME then your front right at the same volume as the front left. Just one example, but again your front soundstage is extremely center focused at this point. 6db is a HUGE difference.

I can understand doing this for the occasional late night viewing (somewhat similar to DRC) so you don't disturb the rest of a sleeping house or something, but to run this way all the time makes no sense to me.

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post #14691 of 22167 Old 02-18-2014, 04:03 PM
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Nothing snide being posted. I'm just not a bright or clever person and the best I'll ever be considered is an incompetent old fool. Where's the snideness?
Nevermind. Unreal

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post #14692 of 22167 Old 02-18-2014, 04:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

All Snide comments aside, pan and scan is video FYI and if you can't hear a difference that's great. But your reasoning is wrong. We will definitely hear a difference especially a 6db difference. Why do you think the front three speakers need to be timbre matched.

But again by all means if you want to have a multi thousand dollar system and claim to be a purist, but yet completely skew what was intended. Who am I to "argue"

I don't claim to be a purist. I leave that jacket for others to wear. No argument. If you say my reasoning is wrong, then it must be wrong. I understand the need for timbre matching. The good news, XT32 fixes most of the discrepancies but in the meantime, I'm still able to hear mismatched timbre when using pink noise, matching speaker to matching speaker. I doubt many, if any will be able to hear a one-off timbre match on a well setup system. Maybe if doing repeated tests but if one is sitting and being distracted by the video in front of them, before they're able to go "HEY!", the video and sound track have moved on. Our memories just don't have that type of echo.

(yeppers, whiffed the use of pan-n-scan)
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post #14693 of 22167 Old 02-18-2014, 04:09 PM
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You flat out states in THIS thread you are a purist!!!

Man I don't want to ever get old if I have dementia like you

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post #14694 of 22167 Old 02-18-2014, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

You commented: "Maybe different subs and/or room would change things for me and then again maybe not."

What I'm not understanding, without standards, how can anybody know what anything is going sound like in anybody's listening venue?

"Act of Valor"

Boat Scene

Producers and Sound Engineers sit down and painstakingly work to master a noteworthy effort and then folks come along and mash it all up and it just makes no sense. I openly acknowledge that I've gone over to the dark side so pretty much, I've lost my impartiality when I read how people run their systems at a measured 10dB hot.


Come-To-The-Dark-Side-We-Have-Cookies_1921-l.jpeg

-

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post #14695 of 22167 Old 02-18-2014, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I don't claim to be a purist. I leave that jacket for others to wear. No argument. If you say my reasoning is wrong, then it must be wrong. I understand the need for timbre matching. The good news, XT32 fixes most of the discrepancies but in the meantime, I'm still able to hear mismatched timbre when using pink noise, matching speaker to matching speaker. I doubt many, if any will be able to hear a one-off timbre match on a well setup system. Maybe if doing repeated tests but if one is sitting and being distracted by the video in front of them, before they're able to go "HEY!", the video and sound track have moved on. Our memories just don't have that type of echo.

(yeppers, whiffed the use of pan-n-scan)
You couldn't be more wrong on the not being able to notice off timbre. Again stop trying to convey it as fact. When you are dead wrong

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post #14696 of 22167 Old 02-18-2014, 04:13 PM
 
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I have no idea what you are talking about here, sorry.

Sorry. I did the best I could to explain what I did.

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If your front 3 speakers were all hitting the same level at your listening position and then you bump your center channel by a whopping 6db, you have absolutely killed and collapsed your front soundstage. If a plane flys across the screen from left to right, it will hit your FL speaker at one volume then hit your center speaker at THIS VOLUME then your front right at the same volume as the front left. Just one example, but again your front soundstage is extremely center focused at this point. 6db is a HUGE difference.

I realized you think I'm unable to understand what is being posted, but what you're not getting, I've moved my thinking forward from traditional sound stage thinking. As I posted, I killed our traditional sound stage. There is no focused sound stage. With the eyes closed, it's now a forty to eighty foot wide sound stage. As I posted, I killed the traditional sound stage sixteen years ago and approach home theater sound from a different viewpoint from traditional home theater sound.

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I can understand doing this for the occasional late night viewing (somewhat similar to DRC) so you don't disturb the rest of a sleeping house or something, but to run this way all the
time makes no sense to me.

As I posted earlier, I don't listen to it like this all the time. After the movie, I dial the levels on the CC and the subs back and turn the volume down.

-
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post #14697 of 22167 Old 02-18-2014, 04:17 PM
 
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You flat out states in THIS thread you are a purist!!!

If you want to argue this point, go to PM, send me a link and I'll be happy to discuss anything you wish that I posted about being a purist in the context it was posted.
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post #14698 of 22167 Old 02-18-2014, 04:18 PM
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If you want to argue this point, go to PM, send me a link and I'll be happy to discuss anything you wish that I posted about being a purist in the context it was posted.
No I quoted your exact text here... I would like you to explain the complete hypocrisy here for all to see. Cause I know they are wondering as well

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the SadieMax HT build thread - my first build
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post #14699 of 22167 Old 02-18-2014, 04:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

Bee I might recommend you see a doctor

Yes, that is a cute sign. And I'm no longer of the mind which has been discussed in this thread. See post number 51 through 56. A thread that you participated in.
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post #14700 of 22167 Old 02-18-2014, 04:25 PM
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I know you have experimented in a house curve which again if you changed yor mind that's cool. But why post it in the first place that it's a travesty to mash up what the director intended. Not only lfe wise but entire soundstage.

Sorry I'm not buying that all of a sudden you go against everything you preached.

Next thing you know you will be telling people to ERASE their free copy if REW lol

Panasonic 65VT30 | Panasonic AE8000 HD PJ | Denon x4100 5.2.4 ATMOS | Emotiva XPA-5 gen |Emotiva XPA-200| PSA MT110 x 3 FL/C/FR | PSA MT110sur surrounds | 3 - PSA XS30 (1 SE) | OPPO 103 | MINIdsp 88a Dirac

the SadieMax HT build thread - my first build
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