The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts - Page 505 - AVS Forum
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post #15121 of 19207 Old 02-27-2014, 04:56 PM
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I tried to be clear, but I think I failed to be obvious that I actually do want to hear all the critiques you guys have about the D-B.com testing methodology. I know its a great project, and I'm glad to be part of it. But, I've seen a fair number of people say it's not perfect, yet never really articulate their complaints about it. I am welcoming the criticism because I think that's the only way something like this gets both properly understood and enhanced.

Thanks for the comments so far. I'll think about them and reply later. :-)
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post #15122 of 19207 Old 02-27-2014, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

The problem is that not everyone would agree and then becomes a popularity contest because after all the most popular vote wins. People like movies I hate and vice versa which has always been the case. The objective data set is new and most welcomed. As for Finding Nemo, you will always find flaws but they are the exception rather than the rule. I am sure in the future something will be discovered to fix that, Maxmercy is a smart guy!

Well, it is a popularity contest, that's kind of the point. It's a popular vote on how effectively the bass was utilized. I really, really like having the objective data there, but I also really like the voting system... although I think it might work better as an average of all votes rather than just going with the popular vote. In any case, it's much better than trying to come to a consensus in this thread. biggrin.gif

As for Finding Nemo, it was just an example that there can be exceptions and a subjective rating can mitigate those somewhat when they occur. The vote can also be used to improve the objective ranking system by identifying anomalies. I agree with you that the objective data set is very valuable, but I don't want to discount the voting system as it too is valuable (and implemented better than before).

I would be all for creating a sortable chart with columns for individual scores, including totals both with and without the execution score. That way the user is free to browse the movies according to whatever criteria they choose.
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post #15123 of 19207 Old 02-27-2014, 07:49 PM
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Thor 2 is also an amazing bass mix. Completely different presentation than gravity. But outstanding

Man we are off to a great start to bass movies in 2014!!
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post #15124 of 19207 Old 02-27-2014, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

Thor 2 is also an amazing bass mix. Completely different presentation than gravity. But outstanding

Man we are off to a great start to bass movies in 2014!!

Agreed! I just finished up watching Thor 2 and I though it was much better then the first!! Looking forward to Thor 3 now smile.gif

Gravity is next up on the list. Hopefully tomorrow night...2014 is kicking arse in Bass Movies that are actually watchable.
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post #15125 of 19207 Old 02-27-2014, 09:10 PM
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I just finished watching Gravity about an hour ago and I will echo the sentiments of others by saying the audio mix was STELLAR! The LFE was amazing, even the more subtle moments (i.e. low rumble). Someone (I think it was Brian Fineberg) stated that this "digs down to about 18 Hz" and that just happens to be where my SVS PC12 starts rolling off, so I was able to get the full effect of this title. Action in the surrounds was also superb, with such accuracy and precision that it really did put you right into the middle of it. The dialogue was crisp, for the most part, though at times I had a hard time hearing them (most notably in the opening scene when Clooney was walking, at a distance, towards Bullock). And lastly, the musical score was PERFECT.

If I were to rate the bass after this initial viewing, I'd say it merits, at the very least, 4.5 Stars. cool.gif
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post #15126 of 19207 Old 02-28-2014, 12:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

Thor 2 is also an amazing bass mix. Completely different presentation than gravity. But outstanding

Man we are off to a great start to bass movies in 2014!!

Hmm in the theaters (atmos) I thought the overall mix was ok. Will have to check it out at home
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post #15127 of 19207 Old 02-28-2014, 01:18 AM
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This was pretty unexpected I must say... usually films like this have the usual 20/30hz HPF in place.

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post #15128 of 19207 Old 02-28-2014, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

I tried to be clear, but I think I failed to be obvious that I actually do want to hear all the critiques you guys have about the D-B.com testing methodology. I know its a great project, and I'm glad to be part of it. But, I've seen a fair number of people say it's not perfect, yet never really articulate their complaints about it. I am welcoming the criticism because I think that's the only way something like this gets both properly understood and enhanced.

Thanks for the comments so far. I'll think about them and reply later. :-)



How about the actual waterfalls are not an accurate representation of what is going on.
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post #15129 of 19207 Old 02-28-2014, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Follz20 View Post

This was pretty unexpected I must say... usually films like this have the usual 20/30hz HPF in place.

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post #15130 of 19207 Old 02-28-2014, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Follz20 View Post

This was pretty unexpected I must say... usually films like this have the usual 20/30hz HPF in place.

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You beat me to it. And with graphs! lol. I was very impressed with this movie, both from an LFE perspective and the movie itself. This really has been the best start to a year for bass movies that I can remember.
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post #15131 of 19207 Old 02-28-2014, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Follz20 View Post

This was pretty unexpected I must say... usually films like this have the usual 20/30hz HPF in place.

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Nice.

Hmm. That has to be quite an event around 13hz to put that kind of mark on both the peak and average.

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post #15132 of 19207 Old 02-28-2014, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Nice.

Hmm. That has to be quite an event around 13hz to put that kind of mark on both the peak and average.

^^Agreed... especially on the average trace... kind of reminds me of the Star Wars PvA's that had a very similar spike at 18Hz & 36Hz, iirc, from the THX logo..
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post #15133 of 19207 Old 02-28-2014, 11:32 AM
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Thanks to those of you who replied about the D-B.com Low Frequency Content Thread. smile.gif All input is honestly welcome and encouraged. This is my (long) opinion on things, based on conversations with maxmercy and others over there. Fair warning: it's possible I've misspoken or exaggerated/misunderstood things in my responses below. maxmercy's super busy these days with work, but I'm hoping he'll weigh in on these points as well.

It seems that some of the issues are related to misunderstanding or misconceptions about the ratings scheme and the calculations. It prolly wouldn't hurt to re-read the first post here:

http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/12-the-low-frequency-content-thread-films-games-music-etc/

Hopefully we're all on the same page to begin with. That said, I think the critiques/issues raised about the Data-Bass.com low frequency content measurements and methodology can be boiled down to these legitimate issues, with my comments italicized under each:

1) The extension rating includes possibly dubious/superfluous content that "games" the rating system for some movies that would otherwise be more poorly rated.

The extension rating is a measure of the -10dB point of what's on the disc, from either the Peak or the Average trace - whichever results in a better rating. If we create an arbitrary cutoff point below which we argue the content is superfluous or of dubious nature (not intended) and, thus, not included in the extension rating, we run the risk of the rating scheme being future-proof. Remember just ten years ago when nobody but maybe one or two people in the world could reproduce below 16Hz, and actually measure it? What about five years ago when 10Hz became the final frontier for the 1%ers? And 3Hz for the single guy in the world who could do it? At some point in the future, it's reasonable to think that lower frequency reproduction will become both more common and less expensive due to the constant march of technological progression.

I don't see a clear way to create a cutoff frequency below which content is deemed superfluous and unrateable without it being arbitrary and capricious. Where do we draw the line? For this reason, why not just rate it as what's encoded on the disc? Plus, as milkfat wisely noted, this is already taken into consideration to some degree: the execution score allows you to penalize a movie that doesn't "earn" its extension rating, in your mind. I actually think most people rate the execution too highly in movies, so please feel free to utilize this method to weigh your displeasure with the extension rating.


2) Some movies are penalized in the Dynamics score for having "too much bass."

As maxmercy has explained it to me, this was a conscious decision in the design of the ratings scheme. Movies must have both the loud and long bass content. However, the difference between the loudest and the quietest moments is what helps our perception define "loud." We perceive huge dynamics as louder overall. maxmercy can probably explain this in a simpler way.

EDIT: there's not a whole lot of difference between the 4.75 category and the 5.0 category. So, if it helps you, consider the 4.75 category to all be actual 5 star movies. To reach 5 stars, you need the perfect combination, and very, very few movies can do that. One of the big criteria is you need quiet scenes and loud scenes, and the difference between them must be large enough to get the 5 stars. If not, you're outta luck! Dynamics are critical to presentation! wink.gif


3) Each rating subcategory should be weighted differently, instead of the current 25% of the score for each subcategory.

What weighting scheme would be better, and why? Convince us! smile.gif What would be the logical reasoning for your changes to the existing methodology? Each category being weighted the same was not an arbitrary or capricious design decision. What's your critique of the way it's currently weighted?

4) Bass content duration across the entire movie should be factored into the calculation.

This is related to complaints about 2) above, I think. Bass content duration is already factored into the calculation of the level ratings subcategory. It comes in the form of average RMS levels across the entire mix, and might be considered to be part of the consideration in dynamics as well.

5) Subjective execution scores are unnecessary and should be kept out of the calculation.

The reasons they were included are numerous. For one, this thread we're on now is all subjective. There's value in people's opinions, but it's not a good tool for comparisons. Thus, to have an objective comparison of bass content in movies/music/etc., maxmercy came up with the objective tools we're discussing. However, he didn't want to completely eliminate the subjective because it's an important component that can be used to account for anomalous scores in other categories, overcome a reviewer's bias in notes/commentary about the film (like mine! wink.gif), and penalize a mix for things that don't show up in the measurements, but do show up in the presentation - such as clipping or excessive limiting.

6) Make the subjective execution category an average of all votes.

This is a really solid recommendation, and I agree. If adopted, we'd prolly round to the nearest whole number value for a movie's final execution score.

7) The top movie mixes frequently exhibit clipping in your comments and measurements. Why? I don't understand?

If a movie is really loud, or has explosions, crashes, or other "bombastic" effects, it's likely that some of the content is clipped (square waves) or limited. That's just the nature of the beast. You'll notice that the best of the best mixes really minimize the clipped content to only what is probably intentional effects that we expect to sound clipped (due to our ear's sensitivity). Sometimes, it seems the sound designers/mixers make a conscious design decision to employ lots of clipping or limiting, as well as bandwidth limiting (filtering) in the design of the effects, so as to push the overall apparent loudness of their mixes. This isn't necessarily a value judgment as much as it is commentary on what are perceived to be industry practices and/or trends. This is what we're talking about when we refer to the "loudness wars." Without many more of the designers/mixers commenting on this exact deduction, we'll never know.

8] Upgrade the presentation of the rankings in a more user-friendly way.

Working on it! We'll see what we can come up with, but stay tuned.

Thanks for the comments so far, fellas. Keep it coming. I take no offense to anyone who brings up reasonable issues in a manner that isn't just picking fights. wink.gif
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post #15134 of 19207 Old 02-28-2014, 02:24 PM
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Thanks Nube, I never really looked at the subjective part as a way to penalize a movie like Nemo. I bet bias of one's system has a huge roll meaning if one loves 50hz they would rate Avengers better than say Elysium which has 10-20hz stuff because they really don't get 10-20hz. It is all good just giving my opinion and I took my subjective opinion out of the subjective ratings and always vote the average of the others and round to the closet whole number.
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post #15135 of 19207 Old 02-28-2014, 02:46 PM
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Thanks for the great post Nube. I am guessing that I am just not fully understanding all the details of the grading system after reading what you just wrote. redface.gif Sorry. Off to do some reading.....
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post #15136 of 19207 Old 02-28-2014, 08:58 PM
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Just finished Gravity...great Bass mix! Movie was too short, but that is not for this thread. Loved the low end rumbles while the rest of the track was fairly quiet. I would rate 4.5 stars.
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post #15137 of 19207 Old 03-01-2014, 03:07 AM
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I also just finished Gravity. That movie gave me a headache. No1, the spining scenes almost made me nauseous. No2, the bass was there is just about every scene, although not the really low stuff, but enough to make a droning effect. Not impressed at all, although the sound effects were quite good IMO.

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post #15138 of 19207 Old 03-01-2014, 05:16 AM
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Watched Finding Nemo Darla scene (fish tank tap) today on a Triax. What a great bass scene that is. I know its not the longest scene but wondering why it's not mentioned that much here? Maybe I've missed the comments as its an older movie?

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post #15139 of 19207 Old 03-01-2014, 06:09 AM
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first of all nube, i think data-bass is a terrific site...

i became aware of its existence only about a month ago, and have since joined and participated in several polls...

personally, i would leave things as they are

that said...it seems, as it always is, that most suggestions for change concern the SUBJECTIVE input...pardon the pun, but why subject your site to subjectivity period...?

take a look at the execution poll for "escape plan"...

23% rate it a 5 star movie

31% rate it a 4 star movie

46% rate it a 3 star movie

the voters are respected members whose opinions i value...but c'mon whose to say who is right or wrong here?

i guess the point is...you have the hard numbers concerning bass measurements...they are not disputable

why bring subjectivity into the equation...?

after all...the site is DATA-bass
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post #15140 of 19207 Old 03-01-2014, 06:47 AM
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I am basing this on the audio portion only for these 2 movies. I thought Gravity was amazing! Totally original sound mix. I watched the newThor movie and Just walked away with the same old been there done that feeling.
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post #15141 of 19207 Old 03-01-2014, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

I also just finished Gravity. That movie gave me a headache. No1, the spining scenes almost made me nauseous. No2, the bass was there is just about every scene, although not the really low stuff, but enough to make a droning effect. Not impressed at all, although the sound effects were quite good IMO.
Ditto. Not a bass demo for me.
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post #15142 of 19207 Old 03-01-2014, 09:43 AM
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Watched Gravity on Wednesday night and I will agree Overall sound presentation was perfectly executed(5.0), bass was (3.0) in my rankings.

Watched Thor 2 last night and Overall sound presentation was a (2.5-3). I felt that the center channel mix was lacking throughout the movie? Bass was a (4-4.5).

Put metallica through the never on again. Overall 5.0, bass 4.5(no ULF going on but this is my first go to disc before demoing scuba Steve or super Leo discs for ULF).

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post #15143 of 19207 Old 03-01-2014, 10:09 AM
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I watched Through the Never a few nights ago, what an awesome audio track! that bass drum was hitting nicely.

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post #15144 of 19207 Old 03-01-2014, 10:11 AM
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I agree, gravity bass was so so but then again there arent too many situations where bass was appropropriate. Most of the movie was from the helmet sounds and the inside of spaceships. Outside the ship with all the action going on it should be almost completely quiet since there is no air...
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post #15145 of 19207 Old 03-01-2014, 11:22 AM
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You guys ever watch trailers off hdtrailers.net? A lot of trailers on there have some really deep bass. The trailer for 300 and Godzilla have some pretty deep sweeps, well deep for me at least.
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post #15146 of 19207 Old 03-01-2014, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kong View Post

Watched Gravity on Wednesday night and I will agree Overall sound presentation was perfectly executed(5.0), bass was (3.0) in my rankings.

Watched Thor 2 last night and Overall sound presentation was a (2.5-3). I felt that the center channel mix was lacking throughout the movie? Bass was a (4-4.5).

Put metallica through the never on again. Overall 5.0, bass 4.5(no ULF going on but this is my first go to disc before demoing scuba Steve or super Leo discs for ULF).

Did you feel the "Thor 2" soundtrack to not match the on screen content? And I take it you meant the dialog wasn't as clear or loud in level as the rest of the mix? Or is this mostly in comparison to "Gravity"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CheYC View Post

I watched Through the Never a few nights ago, what an awesome audio track! that bass drum was hitting nicely.

There seems to be conflicting reports on "Thor 2" from ho! hum! to awesome! I'm hoping for the latter tonight when I watch it! If it's remotely anything like the first it should be killer cool.gif
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post #15147 of 19207 Old 03-01-2014, 01:27 PM
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Thor 2 is good, not great. Much like Ender's Game, although it's a little less powerful than that.

How nice has this thread been since that one loudmouth took an early retirement? smile.gif
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post #15148 of 19207 Old 03-01-2014, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kong View Post

Watched Thor 2 last night and Overall sound presentation was a (2.5-3). I felt that the center channel mix was lacking throughout the movie? Bass was a (4-4.5).

I was just talking about this on it's AVS review thread, I felt the sound was decent, clear to understand and distinguished but it was on the quiet side. However, I think the dialogue was fine and that the sound effects and music didn't match the action on screen.

The bass was pretty good, particularly in the beginning when Thor brings his hammer down. It wasn't a disappointing mix by any means just not too involving IMO besides the bass and dialogue.

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post #15149 of 19207 Old 03-01-2014, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by nube View Post


5) Subjective execution scores are unnecessary and should be kept out of the calculation.

The reasons they were included are numerous. For one, this thread we're on now is all subjective. There's value in people's opinions, but it's not a good tool for comparisons. Thus, to have an objective comparison of bass content in movies/music/etc., maxmercy came up with the objective tools we're discussing. However, he didn't want to completely eliminate the subjective because it's an important component that can be used to account for anomalous scores in other categories, overcome a reviewer's bias in notes/commentary about the film (like mine! wink.gif), and penalize a mix for things that don't show up in the measurements, but do show up in the presentation - such as clipping or excessive limiting.

6) Make the subjective execution category an average of all votes.

This is a really solid recommendation, and I agree. If adopted, we'd prolly round to the nearest whole number value for a movie's final execution score.

Thanks for the comments so far, fellas. Keep it coming. I take no offense to anyone who brings up reasonable issues in a manner that isn't just picking fights. wink.gif

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Originally Posted by lefthandluke View Post

first of all nube, i think data-bass is a terrific site...

i became aware of its existence only about a month ago, and have since joined and participated in several polls...

personally, i would leave things as they are

that said...it seems, as it always is, that most suggestions for change concern the SUBJECTIVE input...pardon the pun, but why subject your site to subjectivity period...?

take a look at the execution poll for "escape plan"...

23% rate it a 5 star movie

31% rate it a 4 star movie

46% rate it a 3 star movie

the voters are respected members whose opinions i value...but c'mon whose to say who is right or wrong here?

i guess the point is...you have the hard numbers concerning bass measurements...they are not disputable

why bring subjectivity into the equation...?

after all...the site is DATA-bass

I believe that subjective voters should have to submit a FR from the LP to become eligible. Then, the voting can be tabulated by F3 or some such qualifier.

Invariably, the subjective comments go something like this...

"Man, I don't see what all the fuss is about with that scene... I think it's not even one star." rolleyes.gif

That' sort of comment will get a pass under "IMO". But, when you see the scene graphed and the commenter's FR:



The comment is no longer a valid opinion because the commenter didn't experience the scene at all.

In other situations, a poster may have a +10dB hump at 40 Hz and the movie he's raving about has all of its low end effects centered at 40 Hz with a steep filter just below that.

Without a qualifier, subjective opinions are just plain confusing.
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