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post #1501 of 26105 Old 10-27-2011, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiGBADDABOOM View Post

TF1 and TF2.

Establishing that, what's the practical application in knowing in what channels the ULF originates?


For most of us that have well bass-managed and well calibrated multi-channel systems, there is no practical application. Unless you are down-mixing to stereo or running without a sub, who cares what channels the bass originates in? As long as the deep bass winds up coming out of the sub or subs, that's all that matters.
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post #1502 of 26105 Old 10-27-2011, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

There was plenty of high level infra in Transformers 1. There is no infra on the LFE channel.

Left side is LFE channel.

Right side is L, C and R channels combined.

Time period near 39 1/2 or so minutes. A little bit after the falling microwave tower scene in desert.






For a comparison, here is a spectrogram of TF-2. Runs of of gas at near 30 hz. Infra is very weak.

Left side is LFE.

Right side is L, C, and R channels combined.

Time period near 1hr 55 min 30 seconds, fighting in the desert.



Quote:

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post #1503 of 26105 Old 10-27-2011, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

For most of us that have well bass-managed and well calibrated multi-channel systems, there is no practical application. Unless you are down-mixing to stereo or running without a sub, who cares what channels the bass originates in? As long as the deep bass winds up coming out of the sub or subs, that's all that matters.



Translation - You do not care what the sound mixer did when he mixed the movie.

I bet you the sound mixer cares what channel he places the bass on!
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post #1504 of 26105 Old 10-27-2011, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Translation - You do not care what the sound mixer did when he mixed the movie.

I bet you the sound mixer cares what channel he places the bass on!


I only care about the end results in my house. The sound mixer should care if he is considering what kind of results many folks get when they down mix to stereo or if they use no sub. For us folks who hang out here, it should make very little difference. The sub either plays ULF that originates from one or more of 8 channels or it does not.
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post #1505 of 26105 Old 10-27-2011, 02:35 PM
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post #1506 of 26105 Old 10-27-2011, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

I only care about the end results in my house. The sound mixer should care if he is considering what kind of results many folks get when they down mix to stereo or if they use no sub. For us folks who hang out here, it should make very little difference. The sub either plays ULF that originates from one or more of 8 channels or it does not.




Can you reproduce bass at reference level down to 3 hz "in your house"??

As far as "The sound mixer should care if he is considering what kind of results many folks get when they down mix to stereo or if they use no sub". Filmixer covered that already on this thread. For the most part they do not care!
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post #1507 of 26105 Old 10-27-2011, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Can you reproduce bass at reference level down to 3 hz "in your house"??

Nope, but what does that have to do with where the ULF originates from?
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post #1508 of 26105 Old 10-27-2011, 02:53 PM
 
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I thought we did this 10 pages ago already. And a few times before that.
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post #1509 of 26105 Old 10-27-2011, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Mixers and directors have very large rooms and do not use bass managed sytems, so what you hear in a relatively small room home bass managed setting is not going to be the same thing that they hear.

Bass management isn't relevant. All that bass management does is redirect some of the bass from one speaker to another (sub) so that it can be replayed more easily. It's the same bass. If you mean something do to with LFE, that is different of course but it isn't what you said.

Kind Regards,

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post #1510 of 26105 Old 10-27-2011, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Nope, but what does that have to do with where the ULF originates from?


Output levels. Any bass recorded on 1, 2, 3 or 4 channels produces different output levels when combined.

Regardless, you can't reproduce the infra anyhow.

Previous discussion here on bass origination point.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post21025608
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post #1511 of 26105 Old 10-27-2011, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Bass management isn't relevant. All that bass management does is redirect some of the bass from one speaker to another (sub) so that it can be replayed more easily. It's the same bass. If you mean something do to with LFE, that is different of course but it isn’t what you said.

Kind Regards,

Keith



Bass management is not used in film mixing. Show me a mixing room where the mains play flat down to 3 Hz at reference level when measured at the listening position!
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post #1512 of 26105 Old 10-27-2011, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiGBADDABOOM View Post

I thought we did this 10 pages ago already. And a few times before that.


Who is "we"?
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post #1513 of 26105 Old 10-27-2011, 03:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Who is "we"?

The collective that enjoys reading this thread; presently having deja-vu reading a debate they remember taking place just 10 pages back.
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post #1514 of 26105 Old 10-27-2011, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiGBADDABOOM View Post

The collective that enjoys reading this thread; presently having deja-vu reading a debate they remember taking place just 10 pages back.


I saw a few charts of TF-3, but that is about it.

I don't own TF-3, so I can't show how it is mixed any different than TF-2.
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post #1515 of 26105 Old 10-27-2011, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

The charts that show those peak and LT average graphs don't really tell you much at all about how any particular sound effect fits into the big scheme of things.

MMmmmmkkaaaayyyyy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

There is more to sound track output levels than peak and average bass levels!

You're right about that. The occasional treble hit and sizzle is fun. Likewise, midrange is highly underrated.



BROUGHT TO YOU BY:

AVS FORUM'S 'The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts' "discussion" thread



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post #1516 of 26105 Old 10-27-2011, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

MMmmmmkkaaaayyyyy.



You're right about that. The occasional treble hit and sizzle is fun. Likewise, midrange is highly underrated.



BROUGHT TO YOU BY:

AVS FORUM'S 'The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts' "discussion" thread







Run your subwoofer without any other speakers active and tell me how great your system sounds.
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post #1517 of 26105 Old 10-27-2011, 03:58 PM
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I do that without having to turn off the others. It's no contest these subs of mine against the rest of my system. That's kind of why I'm working on what I am working on but I know what you mean.


Okay. Now you go the next step further and disconnect the woofers and tweeters in your system. Just run the midrange.


THE SUBWOOFER FORUM
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post #1518 of 26105 Old 10-27-2011, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post


Okay. Now you go the next step further and disconnect the woofers and tweeters in your system. Just run the midrange.


THE SUBWOOFER FORUM


I do that sometimes. It's called watching television with the factory speakers. Sounds better than listening to a subwoofer by itself. At least I can hear music, sound effects and dialogue!
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post #1519 of 26105 Old 10-27-2011, 04:13 PM
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How bad do you want to meet the guy who only listens to his subwoofer and no other speakers?

One might think most of the basshead's around here are like that but.... I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt.
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post #1520 of 26105 Old 10-27-2011, 04:14 PM
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Just wondering why there were never big complaints about TF-2. Seems to be mixed similar to Terminator Salvation - next to no high level infra!

Can't see how much worse TF-3 can be as compared with TF-2!
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post #1521 of 26105 Old 10-27-2011, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

How bad do you want to meet the guy who only listens to his subwoofer and no other speakers?

One might think most of the basshead's around here are like that but.... I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt.


I did try that a few times. That's why I know what it sounds like.

Sometime you should try to set your LFE channel gain control to OFF and see what that does to the audio even when all of the infra is recorded on the main channels.
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post #1522 of 26105 Old 10-27-2011, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

As far as "The sound mixer should care if he is considering what kind of results many folks get when they down mix to stereo or if they use no sub". Filmixer covered that already on this thread. For the most part they do not care!


Aye. And there's the rub!


Ian

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post #1523 of 26105 Old 10-27-2011, 04:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Another movie I have a problem with being rated too high on the list is ninja assassin which while good and a good amount of bass there is nothing memorable or system test worthy on that track. I think it's 4.5 star (I think it is) should be rescinded and the movie getting a lower ranking.

Yeah, i might drop it to 4 star, wasn't that good what i remembered: Those two scenes where that ninja rised from shadows did have some good room shaking bass in dvd version, but now when i watched blu-ray those scenes where pretty lame or then i just remember it wrong.

As a whole I don't even think anything below a 3 star rating should be mentioned and we should switch from numbered star ratings to a letter grade system and actually decide a numerical value system for things like depth, quantity, overall appeal and effect, emotion, movie quality, timing and many other things should go into how we decide these things. The rankings should be handled just like a teacher would grade a paper.
90-100 = A
80-89 = B
70-79 = C
And so on...anything below 60 doesn't get a spot on the list. This way we could actually have some rhyme or reason on how we make these ratings rather than just how we feel that particular day. I hope this post doesn't anger the masses as this is my favorite thread on all of avs. If the group democratically decides to adopt this rating system I will volunteer myself to develop it.

Hmm, i have think something similar...like reference-tier4 kind rating system(what is used in new audio tier thread), but that what you suggest may seems too difficult, but you can sure to develop it and give us some new ideas if you get any.

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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Report back. Curious to hear about this one.

Watched X-Men First Class a week back or so and agree with the praise here as far as LFE. There was something missing from the overall sound though.......not sure what it was and would have to listen again to pinpoint it. LFE wise though, this is a reference track IMO.

Yep, something is missing, that is in 5 star movies.

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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Good call on Emily Rose as I forgot about that one and remember it having some great lows. Just put it in the que.

To me not very good demo material, those cursing and screaming are not very pleasant to listen in reference. But yeah some good scenes, especially end scene " i choose to stay" Nice.
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post #1524 of 26105 Old 10-27-2011, 06:37 PM
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Changing my vote for Machete to four stars.
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post #1525 of 26105 Old 10-27-2011, 06:44 PM
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Just finished watching True Legend on bluray and really enjoyed the bass in this movie and the movie itself. The fighting sequences were incredible so were the scenery and special effect. The story was not bad either. The only down side is that the English track is in stereo so I choose to watch it with the Chinese 5.1 track with English subtitles. I usually hate reading my movies but this one, IMO, was worth it.
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post #1526 of 26105 Old 10-27-2011, 07:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiGBADDABOOM View Post

Can you spell it out for us, JPC? All I'm getting here is that you're saying when ULF exists it's in the main channels and not the LFE channel.

Not true always. Wotw examble have ulf in lfe too, but majority it is in lcr and surrounds. Like scene where those trucks pass front of tom that 16hz info is only on right and left channels what i remember and when tom wakes up in basement in those flashes, bass is in surrounds or atleast majority of it in this scene. I actually remember some time ago that i watched that basement flashes scene and wondered where did all that bass go and then i realised that my surrounds where large mode, huge difference when you put your surrounds in large in this scene, the bass just dissapears.
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post #1527 of 26105 Old 10-28-2011, 03:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Bass management is not used in film mixing. Show me a mixing room where the mains play flat down to 3 Hz at reference level when measured at the listening position!

I think we have different understandings of the term 'bass management'. WRT to HT setups, bass management means taking the low frequency signals from the satellites, bookshelf speakers, or bass-limited directional speakers, and combining them with the LFE signal to be played through the subwoofer. That's it. It's the same bass but played through alternative speakers (the subwoofer usually) that are better able to handle it. It has nothing to do with mixing room speakers 'playing flat down to 3Hz'. That's why I said it was irrelevant.

Kind Regards,

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Well i got to watch early copies of the blurays of Kung Fu Panda 2 and harry Potter and the Deathly hallows Part 2.

Kung Fu panda 2 seemed to be a good amount. 4 stars or so. im not good at the ratings myself but compared to what else has been rated im tossing mine out as more of "what to expect" area. The end battle might have some good low end (im HPF @ 18hz)

harry potter and the Deathly hallows Part 2 really blew me away. I've seen the other HP movies but never on my system with my sub on. Anyways the movie had tons of bass. 4.5 stars for me.I didnt seem to be filtered and seemed to go lower (again cant be 100% sure with charts). The scene 52 minutes into the movie....i want to see a waterfall of that as it really got the room shaking. The bass was also well used. Plentiful. And overall i enjoyed it a lot.


Anyways two movies with decent bass at the least to look forward too!

PSN- Velillen
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post #1529 of 26105 Old 10-28-2011, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velillen View Post

Well i got to watch early copies of the blurays of Kung Fu Panda 2 and harry Potter and the Deathly hallows Part 2.

Kung Fu panda 2 seemed to be a good amount. 4 stars or so. im not good at the ratings myself but compared to what else has been rated im tossing mine out as more of "what to expect" area. The end battle might have some good low end (im HPF @ 18hz)

harry potter and the Deathly hallows Part 2 really blew me away. I've seen the other HP movies but never on my system with my sub on. Anyways the movie had tons of bass. 4.5 stars for me.I didnt seem to be filtered and seemed to go lower (again cant be 100% sure with charts). The scene 52 minutes into the movie....i want to see a waterfall of that as it really got the room shaking. The bass was also well used. Plentiful. And overall i enjoyed it a lot.

Anyways two movies with decent bass at the least to look forward too!

Potter was good...are you talkin about when voldermont uses the elder wand on the shield?
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post #1530 of 26105 Old 10-28-2011, 11:22 AM
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Anyone check out the Jurassic Park Blu-ray's? I know the JPIII DVD had some good LFE but I don't own any of the DVD's so I might pick this up.

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