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post #15661 of 21757 Old 03-27-2014, 07:05 AM
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Re: MOS. Number don't lie. As I said at the time, the most disappointing bass flick of 2013, although not the worst.

Man of Steel (7.1 DTS-HD MA)


Level - 5 Stars (113.0dB composite)
Extension - 2 Star (23Hz)
Dynamics - 4 Stars (25.3dB)
Execution - 3 Stars (by poll)
Overall - 3.5 Stars

Steep filter at 30 Hz, and then another at 20. It's down about 20 dbs from 20 Hz to 10 Hz. Don't see how cranking up the volume changes that. And the mix is really bad, IMO. As others have pointed out, the parts where there should have been heavy bass, there was none. Where no bass should have been, they included it. Piss-poor execution, IMO. But everyone is entitled to like what they like.
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post #15662 of 21757 Old 03-27-2014, 07:36 AM
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People like loud content from 30Hz on up. They often mistake that for "deep" or "good" bass. It's in evidence all the time in this thread, being implied several times in the last 20 posts. That's OK, but folks need to realize that our brain is wired to think louder is better. Yet, as you say, playing it louder doesn't change the content at all, as long as all levels stay the same in relation to each other.

This is not to say that a 30Hz+ movie can't be good. I love The Fifth Element, but it's a 30Hz movie that I first watched on a computer years ago, and it's not really a bass movie. At this point, I'm spoiled and need those extra couple/few octaves in action/adventure/thriller movies to really like it.

And, last thing, not everyone's a critic - thank god! They might try to sound critical with flowery language, but, often, all they're saying is "I liked it" or "I didn't like it," in so many words. I think the critics here can spot those types of posts a mile away.
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post #15663 of 21757 Old 03-27-2014, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by buddhamus View Post

I'm pretty sure the Triax has the same cut off at 7hz as the Submersive/Caps....as they are both using the same brand amp Speaker power. The Triax does have abit more output in the lower octaves but I'm pretty sure it doesn't go below 7hz.

Mine do, maybe it wasn't setup optimally?

audysseyxt32nosmoothing_zps712ae35c.jpg

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post #15664 of 21757 Old 03-27-2014, 08:13 AM
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^^ is that one Triax or three Triaxes, Ray?
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post #15665 of 21757 Old 03-27-2014, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post

^^ is that one Triax or three Triaxes, Ray?

That is 2 collocated. I couldn't find the graph with 3 on my phone.

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post #15666 of 21757 Old 03-27-2014, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post

Mine do, maybe it wasn't setup optimally?

audysseyxt32nosmoothing_zps712ae35c.jpg

Do you run Audyssey, or use a Mini DSP on those? The response should be much flatter with two subs!! Still, hits hard and low...
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post #15667 of 21757 Old 03-27-2014, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by McStyvie View Post

Do you run Audyssey, or use a Mini DSP on those? The response should be much flatter with two subs!! Still, hits hard and low...

They're collocated, so there won't be much "natural" FR flattening going on. With a 3rd, as he indicates he has, that can change.
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post #15668 of 21757 Old 03-27-2014, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by McStyvie View Post

Do you run Audyssey, or use a Mini DSP on those? The response should be much flatter with two subs!! Still, hits hard and low...

Audyssey XT32, that is an older graph. I was able to flatten it more. Also have a 3rd sub now.

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post #15669 of 21757 Old 03-27-2014, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Mongo171 View Post

If it wasn't for the x-ray frequencies, then we would never know we had a broken bone.

Fwiw, while X-rays operate in a designated area of the spectrum, X-rays themselves are actually man-made by bombarding electrons against a tungsten anode. The energies released when the electrons change direction are the actual X-rays.
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post #15670 of 21757 Old 03-27-2014, 10:02 AM
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Audyssey XT32, that is an older graph. I was able to flatten it more. Also have a 3rd sub now.

Nice! I bet they sound awesome...
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post #15671 of 21757 Old 03-27-2014, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

People like loud content from 30Hz on up. They often mistake that for "deep" or "good" bass. It's in evidence all the time in this thread, being implied several times in the last 20 posts. That's OK, but folks need to realize that our brain is wired to think louder is better. Yet, as you say, playing it louder doesn't change the content at all, as long as all levels stay the same in relation to each other.

This is not to say that a 30Hz+ movie can't be good. I love The Fifth Element, but it's a 30Hz movie that I first watched on a computer years ago, and it's not really a bass movie. At this point, I'm spoiled and need those extra couple/few octaves in action/adventure/thriller movies to really like it.

And, last thing, not everyone's a critic - thank god! They might try to sound critical with flowery language, but, often, all they're saying is "I liked it" or "I didn't like it," in so many words. I think the critics here can spot those types of posts a mile away.

Is this not subjective?
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post #15672 of 21757 Old 03-27-2014, 01:30 PM
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That's the whole point. People mistake loud for deep or good, simply because it's loud. There's even been scientific research conducted that proves people think louder sounds better.

Not sure I can clarify it any more than that...
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post #15673 of 21757 Old 03-27-2014, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by nube View Post

That's the whole point. People mistake loud for deep or good, simply because it's loud. There's even been scientific research conducted that proves people think louder sounds better.

Not sure I can clarify it any more than that...

I think what he is saying goes something like this...Is "good bass" not subjective? It reads like you are saying all those people are wrong. But if it's subjective, they aren't. They just have different preferences than you do.

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post #15674 of 21757 Old 03-27-2014, 01:41 PM
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So whether a movie has lots of 10-25 Hz bass, or has all 25 Hz and up, if someone really likes a movie and thinks it has great bass, they are correct.  What matters is perception.   That's not to say someone with a Bose Acoustimass does not know what they are missing out on, but anyone on these forums with decent ID subs most likely is able to enjoy 99% of the content in movies.

 

So whether a movie would be rated 4, 4.5, or 5 star on paper for whatever reason, everyone will have a different perception of how good any particular movie is for bass, and in the end, they are correct.  Granted some movies definitely stand a better chance of being a great bass movie for most than others.

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post #15675 of 21757 Old 03-27-2014, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by nube View Post

That's the whole point. People mistake loud for deep or good, simply because it's loud. There's even been scientific research conducted that proves people think louder sounds better.

Not sure I can clarify it any more than that...

True! and something the vast majority equate with better indeed! One thing I've noticed over the years of listening is that every recording has a level at which it will sound good , add too much volume and the balance is loss to little and the same result occurs. I've posted on tracks( that for me at least) that have excellent tracking down to reference volume of 0 on a calibrated system, such examples are" Oblivion " which doesn't appear to lose fidelity ( or dynamic range) at any given volume and can be very enjoyable at 0. My original viewing of MoS was the exact opposite and I found it difficult to find the right volume for playback (rare) The second viewing I had different results as it may be due to a few minor adjustments one being volume and crossover settings . So yes to some louder may be better but to someone as myself ( considered the same by many) who has a very nice collection of what I consider reference recordings and a late night listening habit of very low levels wink.gif With respect for the material being played back, there are occasions when louder can be better and sometimes its an ear curdling mess but in the end if it helps to give more enjoyment of the material being played back then I'm all in smile.gif
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post #15676 of 21757 Old 03-27-2014, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

So whether a movie has lots of 10-25 Hz bass, or has all 25 Hz and up, if someone really likes a movie and thinks it has great bass, they are correct.  What matters is perception.   That's not to say someone with a Bose Acoustimass does not know what they are missing out on, but anyone on these forums with decent ID subs most likely is able to enjoy 99% of the content in movies.

So whether a movie would be rated 4, 4.5, or 5 star on paper for whatever reason, everyone will have a different perception of how good any particular movie is for bass, and in the end, they are correct.  Granted some movies definitely stand a better chance of being a great bass movie for most than others.

+1 As I learn and grow with this hobby I know my perception will still dictate how I enjoy the movie or music. Getting my first HTIB system with a sub I thought that was good bass. smile.gif

Watched a lot of the 5 star bass movies with that system WOTW, Oblivion, MOS, ect. Now watching them all over again and thinking I was missing some Great Bass. biggrin.gif

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post #15677 of 21757 Old 03-27-2014, 02:21 PM
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Today we watched Frozen, and are currently re-watching Finding Nemo (first time since new gear). 

 

I am very impressed with Finding Nemo. Given the audio upgrade vs TV speakers it's like a whole different movie, and it is using bass quite well (and often). Frozen...not so much IMO. Probably won't be putting that one back in. 


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post #15678 of 21757 Old 03-27-2014, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Farley1 View Post

Today we watched Frozen, and are currently re-watching Finding Nemo (first time since new gear). 

I am very impressed with Finding Nemo. Given the audio upgrade vs TV speakers it's like a whole different movie, and it is using bass quite well (and often). Frozen...not so much IMO. Probably won't be putting that one back in. 

I thought Frozen, in general, didn't have much of an LFE track. However there were times where I was very pleased. The scenes with the snow monster did a pretty decent job of shaking my room.

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post #15679 of 21757 Old 03-27-2014, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Farley1 View Post

I think what he is saying goes something like this...Is "good bass" not subjective? It reads like you are saying all those people are wrong. But if it's subjective, they aren't. They just have different preferences than you do.

Yeap!

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post #15680 of 21757 Old 03-27-2014, 03:53 PM
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Finding Nemo at 1:18:40 to 1:18:50 is awesome for bass. Seriously. Somebody mentioned it recently, and I see why. 

 

To hell with Frozen, my go-to for an animated kids movie is now set to Finding Nemo.


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post #15681 of 21757 Old 03-27-2014, 03:55 PM
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Oldie but. Goodie

It's my #1 demo scene for guests. It's kid friendly and really gets the true wow factor

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post #15682 of 21757 Old 03-27-2014, 04:00 PM
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High level 30hz will certainly get anyone's attention.

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post #15683 of 21757 Old 03-27-2014, 04:10 PM
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True. But for those who don't know any better. To just plain wow them. Clean 30hz loud as in the darla scene gets em everytime.

Of course if I'm out to impress my buddies. Out come TIH

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post #15684 of 21757 Old 03-27-2014, 04:14 PM
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Guys, it's not just a subjective-preference-therefore-nobody-is-right thing. I'll be brief for simplicity's sake.

The Equal Loudness Contours (ELC) from Fletcher & Munson in 1933, limitations below 20Hz notwithstanding, show that hearing sensitivity changes at higher levels. Because of this, we perceive louder to sound better up until our ears are overloaded, and this is especially true in the bass frequency range. Gabrielsson, et al, "Perceived sound quality of reproductions..." (1990) showed this via statistical analysis of empirical testing in a peer-reviewed academic journal.

Unfortunately, the PDF from the Journal of the Acoustical Society of America is paywalled unless you have access through your university or business. However, its results are summarized in the abstract, and cited by any number of other pieces of research into hearing, mostly dealing with perceptions of speakers, headphones, and hearing aids. Floyd Toole also noted this phenomenon in some of his empirical testing on why different speakers/systems are subjectively rated more favorably.

Further, louder sounds excite parts of the ear and related structures that, as the sounds get louder, trigger a release of endorphins that creates a more positive impression of the sound.

Here are a couple of online articles describing how the ELC (and other things) predict this:

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/audiofool/archive/2007/02/07/louder-sounds-better.aspx?Redirected=true

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_why_louder_sounds/
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post #15685 of 21757 Old 03-27-2014, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

True. But for those who don't know any better. To just plain wow them. Clean 30hz loud as in the darla scene gets em everytime.

Of course if I'm out to impress my buddies. Out come TIH


I still love the Darla scene. Feels like you are in the fish tank! tongue.gif

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post #15686 of 21757 Old 03-27-2014, 04:34 PM
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For demo, I just play those demo discs I downloaded here. They have ELF, ULF, mid bass clips, you name it.
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For demo, I just play those demo discs I downloaded here. They have ELF, ULF, mid bass clips, you name it.
I just got it yesterday and you're right. There's some surprises in there too. The train wreck in Super 8 and the robot in T S. But the Cloverfield scene is just utterly visceral, I got to play it at reference today and Oh My... smile.gif
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post #15688 of 21757 Old 03-27-2014, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torqdog View Post

I take back what I said a while back........this was not the worst soundtrack of 2013. Haven't given much thought to which one was.

Hint: it rhymes with "Mobbit"
Or "Bobbit", as in they both had the good part down low cut off.


Max
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post #15689 of 21757 Old 03-27-2014, 06:14 PM
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Isn't the lightning strikes at 5-10hz? I don't think many people are able to playback that scene at a high enough level.

According to the graph it's 7-60Hz. Haven't listened to it for a while. I seem to recall that it had some serious umph.

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/weezR/media/Waterfalls/WotW_ch4_lightning_LFE.jpg.html
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Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torqdog View Post

I take back what I said a while back........this was not the worst soundtrack of 2013. Haven't given much thought to which one was.

Hint: it rhymes with "Mobbit"
Or "Bobbit", as in they both had the good part down low cut off.


Max

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