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post #17611 of 22164 Old 08-18-2014, 11:30 AM
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Hey guys, how were these measurements taken? I can't find any mention of the method used.
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post #17612 of 22164 Old 08-18-2014, 12:10 PM
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Hey guys, how were these measurements taken? I can't find any mention of the method used.
This explains the whole methodology of the rankings and the basics of the measurements that were developed by maxmercy and are posted both there and here:

http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.p...mes-music-etc/

If you have additional questions, feel free to make a post over there on the other threads detailing the SpecLab software usage.
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post #17613 of 22164 Old 08-18-2014, 12:21 PM
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Thank you. What I'm not finding is whether this is a line level measurement of the program content, or an acoustic measurement with a mic, etc..
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post #17614 of 22164 Old 08-18-2014, 12:31 PM
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Thank you. What I'm not finding is whether this is a line level measurement of the program content, or an acoustic measurement with a mic, etc..
I think it's all discussed over there, but it's no longer done either of the ways you mentioned. The old way was line level measurement to see what frequencies were recorded in the program content, and sometimes (for comparison's sake) an acoustic measurement with a mic to see how well your system was reproducing said content.

The new way, however, which everything at the Data-Bass.com site is based on, is to measure the digital program content directly off the discs themselves.

The bottom of the first post I linked you to, right below the last ranking of program content, says this specifically:

Quote:
The old ranking system is at the bottom of this post. It used a lengthy (and lossy) signal chain (BluRay Player, Receiver, Soundcard in) to get the measurements which were then compensated afterwards for rolloff. Now there is no signal chain, all analysis is fully digital with no signal chain
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post #17615 of 22164 Old 08-18-2014, 12:54 PM
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Thanks again. Even reading that, I'm not sure I would have understood it to be what it really is.


In looking at most of these I see what is common to all mixes where a big impression is to be made with bass. The 30 Hz to 50 Hz range is where we really get the hitting power we hear and feel. That is where the mixers have appropriately mixed the highest amplitude in the event. My question to all, and I'd certainly like to see Filmmixer and others ring in on, is how much content below 30 Hz is intentional; not just stuff that falls down there because it's not even being monitored that low? In other words, is it a happy surprise for those who want to mine it, but otherwise unintended?


It makes me wonder why there is such passionate pursuit of subs that reach into the teens when there is so little there (content and amplitude).


Just askin'
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post #17616 of 22164 Old 08-18-2014, 01:14 PM
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It is just accuracy. Low stuff happens all the time.
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post #17617 of 22164 Old 08-18-2014, 01:42 PM
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Why buy a ferrari that can go 200 when the speed limits are 65?
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post #17618 of 22164 Old 08-18-2014, 01:56 PM
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Why buy a ferrari that can go 200 when the speed limits are 65?
I'd rather be seen in a nice Ferrari cruising 65 than flooring it just to make 65 in a Kia.
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post #17619 of 22164 Old 08-18-2014, 02:00 PM
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post #17620 of 22164 Old 08-18-2014, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post
Thanks again. Even reading that, I'm not sure I would have understood it to be what it really is.


In looking at most of these I see what is common to all mixes where a big impression is to be made with bass. The 30 Hz to 50 Hz range is where we really get the hitting power we hear and feel. That is where the mixers have appropriately mixed the highest amplitude in the event. My question to all, and I'd certainly like to see Filmmixer and others ring in on, is how much content below 30 Hz is intentional; not just stuff that falls down there because it's not even being monitored that low? In other words, is it a happy surprise for those who want to mine it, but otherwise unintended?


It makes me wonder why there is such passionate pursuit of subs that reach into the teens when there is so little there (content and amplitude).


Just askin'
You're hitting on a debate that has been ongoing here for at least 10 years, and is completely settled. I'll boil down the salient points so you don't have to wade through this and other threads' thousands of posts on the subject, although I feel like I've done this within even the last few months.

1) The content is intentional in almost all cases. Because we experience a huge amount of reasonably high-amplitude sounds below 20Hz in our daily lives (as proven in a whole slew of posts by bossobass, maxmercy, FOH, myself and others), it makes sense that these sounds are recorded and utilized in foley, sound design and mixing, especially to add a sense of realism and immersive quality to the mix.

The best of the best mixers and designers know this, and it is from these Academy Award-winning sound professionals that we have tons of content in these octaves. At this point in the march of technological progress, it is only when they are filtered out by design that we take note. There are a number of mixing studios that either do have or have had the capability to reproduce content significantly below 20Hz, most notably Skywalker.

Thusfar, out of over 300 movies maxmercy and I have measured, some 80% have a -10dB point below 20Hz, 62% have a -10dB point below 16Hz, and 50% have a -10dB point below 12Hz, and an astonishing 46% have a -10dB point below 10Hz. There is no possible way that's unintentional noise, especially when you look at graphs of the spectral content in most of these very low effects.

2) The range of 25-35Hz is where most of the resonant frequencies that excite objects (and our bodies) exist, but the octaves below that are what excite our home and home theater structures. This is part of the reason why content below 20Hz reproduced in rooms with suspended floors creates such an amazing effect. Above that, or in rooms on concrete slabs, not so much.

To your point, though, the Fletcher & Munson Equal Loudness Contours show that high-amplitude stuff in the bandwidth you noted will likely sound louder, and further research dictates that it may be perceived as "better" simply because of that apparent loudness.

3) I made a post a couple months ago about the limitations of presentations that cannot reproduce all of the content on the disc, no matter the amplitude. It informs some of your questions and supports some of my assertions. Please do read through it and all of the supporting links. It can be found here:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/187-of...l#post25261937

4) Look up posts by bossobass on this and the Data-Bass.com forums, and specifically the keyword "intentional." You'll find a wealth of information and proof that has helped inform my own research on the subject.

Please read through all of the supporting material. Your inquiries and assertions have been addressed multiple times in the past, and if you fully immerse yourself in the supporting documentation I've pointed you to, you'll find that you won't have to ask this again, and you might even be able to educate the professionals you interact with in related areas of professional and personal interest.

Good luck!
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post #17621 of 22164 Old 08-18-2014, 02:59 PM
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First ... let me compliment you on the content and style of your post/response. It reminds me of posts back when I first joined AVS in 2000 and you might have considered this a "gentlemen's" forum. Styles do change.


I'll study your response and the references you made to your research and findings. I find it pretty interesting already. Further, I will share it with some colleagues in the industries who will also be very interested. Most of my background is in production rather than post-production, but I have a few folks who I wouldn't be surprised if they also have questions. Is the Data-bass.com forum or here the best place to ask those?


I will also save this post as a reference. Kinda like a sticky. Maybe it should be one.


Regarding Skywalker, I attended the THX training in 2002 when it was a full week up there. We had the pleasure of joining the Lucasfilm employee Friday night screening of Fellowship of the Ring in The Stag that week. Memorable!


Thanks again for the tremendous effort you have undertaken. That alone would be darned impressive.


Cheers
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post #17622 of 22164 Old 08-18-2014, 03:20 PM
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Why buy a ferrari that can go 200 when the speed limits are 65?
you'd be surprised how fast a Kia can go
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post #17623 of 22164 Old 08-18-2014, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post
First ... let me compliment you on the content and style of your post/response. It reminds me of posts back when I first joined AVS in 2000 and you might have considered this a "gentlemen's" forum. Styles do change.


I'll study your response and the references you made to your research and findings. I find it pretty interesting already. Further, I will share it with some colleagues in the industries who will also be very interested. Most of my background is in production rather than post-production, but I have a few folks who I wouldn't be surprised if they also have questions. Is the Data-bass.com forum or here the best place to ask those?


I will also save this post as a reference. Kinda like a sticky. Maybe it should be one.


Regarding Skywalker, I attended the THX training in 2002 when it was a full week up there. We had the pleasure of joining the Lucasfilm employee Friday night screening of Fellowship of the Ring in The Stag that week. Memorable!


Thanks again for the tremendous effort you have undertaken. That alone would be darned impressive.


Cheers
Hey it's my pleasure. Glad to hear of your experience with some of the best in the business. I'm betting that was fun and informative!

In the future, I think the signal-to-noise ratio here is pretty poor, so asking questions at Data-Bass is probably the best choice - though don't expect super quick responses because it's a much smaller forum. However, for its size, it has a lot of experienced posters. FilmMixer and a slew of other industry folks are members there.
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post #17624 of 22164 Old 08-19-2014, 06:23 AM
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you'd be surprised how fast a Kia can go
that's the equivalent of the 16 Polk sub set-up of cars.
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you'd be surprised how fast a Kia can go
My grandson has a Hot Wheels just like that!

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post #17626 of 22164 Old 08-19-2014, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post
First ... let me compliment you on the content and style of your post/response. It reminds me of posts back when I first joined AVS in 2000 and you might have considered this a "gentlemen's" forum. Styles do change.


I'll study your response and the references you made to your research and findings. I find it pretty interesting already. Further, I will share it with some colleagues in the industries who will also be very interested. Most of my background is in production rather than post-production, but I have a few folks who I wouldn't be surprised if they also have questions. Is the Data-bass.com forum or here the best place to ask those?


I will also save this post as a reference. Kinda like a sticky. Maybe it should be one.


Regarding Skywalker, I attended the THX training in 2002 when it was a full week up there. We had the pleasure of joining the Lucasfilm employee Friday night screening of Fellowship of the Ring in The Stag that week. Memorable!


Thanks again for the tremendous effort you have undertaken. That alone would be darned impressive.


Cheers
nube and everyone else who has contributed to the understanding and promotion of full-bandwidth audio content receive my full and hearty support

I am a mere noob on here and my knowledge is limited, but I do fully appreciate the difference between feeling the added 'weight' that is present in a full bandwidth mix, versus the lightweight (but usually mixed unbearably loud) filtered mixes.

A prime and easily demonstratable example of this is to watch two films from the same franchise back-to-back, one with a full bandwidth presentation and one where they have filtered the content. If you have access to a system that can play reference to under 10Hz, I would recommend watching the latest two Star Trek movies or the two Percy Jackson movies - in both cases the first movie was unfiltered and the second movie filtered. In both cases I have re-watched the first films many, many times because the audio is so enjoyable (even if the film is cheesy lol), whereas I have watched the second films perhaps twice at most, simply because the filtered mixes give me a headache!


Anyway, it would be great to see you over on the DB forum and I will be very interested to see what your colleagues in the industry have as their views on the subject. What would be awesome is if you could get some influential people together to visit any one of the gents who has a system that can play at Reference all the way down, so they can experience what a full bandwidth mix actually sounds and feels like on a system that is fully capable!
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post #17627 of 22164 Old 08-19-2014, 11:13 AM
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nube and everyone else who has contributed to the understanding and promotion of full-bandwidth audio content receive my full and hearty support

I am a mere noob on here and my knowledge is limited, but I do fully appreciate the difference between feeling the added 'weight' that is present in a full bandwidth mix, versus the lightweight (but usually mixed unbearably loud) filtered mixes.

A prime and easily demonstratable example of this is to watch two films from the same franchise back-to-back, one with a full bandwidth presentation and one where they have filtered the content. If you have access to a system that can play reference to under 10Hz, I would recommend watching the latest two Star Trek movies or the two Percy Jackson movies - in both cases the first movie was unfiltered and the second movie filtered. In both cases I have re-watched the first films many, many times because the audio is so enjoyable (even if the film is cheesy lol), whereas I have watched the second films perhaps twice at most, simply because the filtered mixes give me a headache!


Anyway, it would be great to see you over on the DB forum and I will be very interested to see what your colleagues in the industry have as their views on the subject. What would be awesome is if you could get some influential people together to visit any one of the gents who has a system that can play at Reference all the way down, so they can experience what a full bandwidth mix actually sounds and feels like on a system that is fully capable!
I can almost already predict what the responses from industry professionals I've reached out to on this will be. Yes, there is the occasional film where the creators specifically want the designer to use infrasonic content, but not many.


I can also predict that they will say that if there is not such a requirement from the designer/creators, they don't monitor down that low, and that they will filter below 20Hz because they want to preserve headroom.


Finally, I bet that there will also be some who say that they don't filter it, but they also don't monitor it below 20Hz; that what goes down there is a coincidence.


It will be interesting to see if I'm right. I don't have a dog in the race either way. I don't actively seek content that low, although my system will render it to about 20Hz.


BTW, I did hear from one source describing a situation where LF content can end up in the LCR channels that was totally unintended. It was described as happening on mixing stages where the LCR stacks ran out of any reproduction capability at about 35Hz. Directors would holler for more bass from the LCR channels rather than the LFE, so mixers would start pumping a lot of <35Hz EQ on those channels that could very well be terrible if it could be monitored. I would suspect that this could be heard when we don't want to. I'll see if I can find any titles that might be affected by this. I got the feeling that this is somewhat old news; that most mixing systems are more capable now.
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post #17628 of 22164 Old 08-19-2014, 12:53 PM
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My grandson has a Hot Wheels just like that!
My son has one too.

And what's up Cam, Tucson in the house.
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post #17629 of 22164 Old 08-19-2014, 06:35 PM
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Any takers on what this sounds like on your system with BASS ?? The Amazing Spider-Man 2.
Finished Noah and was pretty pleased overall with the bass. Outstanding acting in that one!!!
Finished Transcendence barely !!! Once and done, maybe not the right time as I was fatigued and dosing off.

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post #17630 of 22164 Old 08-20-2014, 06:08 AM
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Watched Titan AE for the first time last night. Mediocre flick at best, but lots of great bass. Worth watching.
Just watched this yesterday and enjoyed the bass. As you stated mediocre, not the best story line and a little cheesy. Boy how animation has come a long way since 2000, if this movie was made today I'm sure it would have looked great.
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post #17631 of 22164 Old 08-21-2014, 09:27 AM
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Gotta long wait as HTTYD2 is slated for December. I am looking forward to the entire summer catalog myself. Godzilla is at the top of the list.
I have to correct this, as HTTYD2 looks to be available November 11th. They must have moved it up.
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post #17632 of 22164 Old 08-21-2014, 10:08 AM
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Any takers on what this sounds like on your system with BASS ?? The Amazing Spider-Man 2.
Finished Noah and was pretty pleased overall with the bass. Outstanding acting in that one!!!
Finished Transcendence barely !!! Once and done, maybe not the right time as I was fatigued and dosing off.
You can check out the graphs for TASM2 on data-bass
http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.p...scussion-poll/
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post #17633 of 22164 Old 08-21-2014, 10:18 AM
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I have to correct this, as HTTYD2 looks to be available November 11th. They must have moved it up.
I'm completely out of touch - are the indications good at the cinema re: bass?

I think I will re-enact the scene of the dragon crash in the first one, with me being the dragon, if they mess the sound up on this sequel... lol
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post #17634 of 22164 Old 08-21-2014, 11:30 AM
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I'm completely out of touch - are the indications good at the cinema re: bass?

I think I will re-enact the scene of the dragon crash in the first one, with me being the dragon, if they mess the sound up on this sequel... lol

+1
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post #17635 of 22164 Old 08-21-2014, 04:12 PM
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You can check out the graphs for TASM2 on data-bass
http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.p...scussion-poll/
Thanks for the info. I'll be picking up my BD copy this weekend !!!

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post #17636 of 22164 Old 08-22-2014, 06:10 AM
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TASM2 not a bad bass flick but lacks in variety. A couple of scenes like when Gwen is falling could have been a great opportunity for an Oblivion like rope break bass sweep.

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Just watched this yesterday and enjoyed the bass. As you stated mediocre, not the best story line and a little cheesy. Boy how animation has come a long way since 2000, if this movie was made today I'm sure it would have looked great.
Regarding Titan AE, it was a movie that cost over $100 million to make and the original studio went broke. A second studio picked up the project half way through. I've seen this movie over 50 times because the sound is so incredible. My daughters loved watching this movie growing up. Great bass in the ice scene and great surrounds for a DTS movie.
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post #17638 of 22164 Old 08-22-2014, 11:06 AM
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Most of the bass in the new Godzilla movie is at 30-50hz. There is some 20hz content but not very loud.

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post #17639 of 22164 Old 08-22-2014, 11:09 AM
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post #17640 of 22164 Old 08-22-2014, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post
Most of the bass in the new Godzilla movie is at 30-50hz. There is some 20hz content but not very loud.
:conf used:

Pacific Rim all over again?
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