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Old 11-25-2011, 09:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Flageborg, do you have scandinavian blu-ray version of black hawk down. I'm interested that ****in irene scene because dvd version in here didn't have that strong 7hz info at all, so i wonder is the blu-ray taken from same master like that dvd....and little friendly advise, your charts are clipping pretty badly, so drop your recording volume a little bit.
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Old 11-25-2011, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lfe man View Post

Hmm weird, i just compared blu-ray dts ma and dvd DD track and found that dts ma is about 2db louder in amplitude than dvd dolby digital and overall better sounding in surrounds area and wow what a picture quality in blu-ray version have.

In those wotw charts that i made the 2db difference is very hard to see, but if you look that amplitude bar you can see little bigger energy in dts dvd chart(that first big 5-40hz info in bottom).



Not always louder, but what i have now compared some dvd dts and dd tracks to blu-ray ones, seems that some dvd audio track are about 2-4db louder in amplitude(like wotw, district 9, rare exports). Most shocking example what i have found is The Shawshank Redemption region 2 scandinavian sony/columbia(opening credits) dvd 224kps DD 5.1 track which have 13db louder bass than warner 664kps DD blu-ray version, but it seems that dvd have different mix than blu-ray.





Did you check on what Dialnorm value was used on each track? Bluray DTS can also use Dialnorm, so you have to check DTS on Bluray these days just in case Dialnorm was used.

On the Region1 WOTW DVD, the DTS track plays back 8 dB (DN = -23) louder than the DD track due to the use of Dialnorm. Which track plays back at "reference level"?
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Old 11-26-2011, 12:53 AM
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Just got done watching Hanna... I'm surprise it isn't in the bass list yet. I think this film deserves at least 4.5 stars and perhaps even a full 5. It would be nice to see some good graphs of this film as there are so many good quality bass scenes, but I don't have much idea of how low they go (it seemed there were at least a handful of scenes to keep you ultra-low guys happy). The Chemical Brothers covered the sound track, so there's no shortage of low end there.

It's also nice to have a unique genre to add to the bass list. A dark-thriller-comedy-fantasy-self-discovery film. It truly is refreshing to have something beyond the Transformers and Battle: LAs of late. Apparently it is a love-it or hate-it film... I loved it.
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Old 11-26-2011, 03:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lfe man View Post


Flageborg, do you have scandinavian blu-ray version of black hawk down. I'm interested that ****in irene scene because dvd version in here didn't have that strong 7hz info at all, so i wonder is the blu-ray taken from same master like that dvd....

Yes I do...

But first you may have a look at an analysis performed almost 4 years ago...
DVD version - Dolby sound track





And now the Bluray version

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Old 11-26-2011, 08:37 AM
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I thought Super 8 was ok as far as bass goes. Didn't seem to be much of anything below 25-30Hz but what was there was loud. I recall a couple of parts being very loud. At the end of the train crash when the creature is trying to escape the train car being one. There was a really loud upper bass slam on that part. I wasn't bothered by the high end being harsh either. Yes there were some very loud upper frequencies during the train crash and later on... Very loud. Glass exploding and steel twisting and ripping apart is going to be harsh and loud though so I see that as the mixer doing their job well. I do wish there would have been a little bit more extension and level from the bass overall but what was there wasn't bad at all IMHO. YMMV.
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Old 11-26-2011, 08:59 AM
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My vote goes to Harry Potter And The Deathly Hollows BD's!



Ian

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Old 11-26-2011, 10:40 AM
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Quote:


Originally Posted by ken wu
I do notice significant bass level difference in Saving Private Ryan although without checking them in speclab.
Compared them back to back using the end battle scene when the heroes are expecting an approaching tank in the crater,
the shaking bass level on DVD(R1, DD only) has bumped more than BD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lfe man View Post

Hmm weird, i just compared blu-ray dts ma and dvd DD track and found that dts ma is about 2db louder in amplitude than dvd dolby digital and overall better sounding in surrounds area and wow what a picture quality in blu-ray version have.

I took some time comparing SPR BD with DVD, placing the speclab results here.

The captures for the BD (DTS core) I made were set at volume 15 on pre-pro, 0-120Hz (SW output) and 200-2kHz (Center channel output) respectively.

As for R1 dvd (DD only) I took 3 captures for volume 15, 16, 17 for 0-120Hz and another 3 caps for 200-2kHz.

I'm not sure if dialnorm was applied, from the captures I notice some soundtrack discrepancies between BD and DVD, although they don't seem to be caused simply by level difference, the bass for the DVD has bumped prominently as I see (and hear) it.
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Old 11-26-2011, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

If you run the S-8 and Prince of Persia (I haven't seen it) and do a peak hold from 200-4000 Hz (instead of 0-120 Hz as we usually do) then the whole "I think" part of the equation would be irrelevant to what is actually the harsher track.

To me, I prefer the heads up through measurements. I know what I prefer as far as a movie I'd put in my library or not and the graphs narrow the contenders down quite a bit. Whether or not people like a mix doesn't help me at all and many times leads me to waste money on a flick I end up giving away.

Bosso

What kind of a system do you have? Speakers, subs, processor, amps, etc.

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Old 11-26-2011, 01:15 PM
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^^^^

He's prolly got something nice, like a multi CHT bas sub system, or if it's DIY, it's prolly a big Callas style LLT.

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Old 11-26-2011, 05:52 PM
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Hey, my LLT rocks the place quite appropriately.


Soooo... just got done with Super 8. Rented the Blu-ray from RedBox.

The 7.1 was pretty good! When the split surrounds were used, it was done very well. The bass was really ... not that great. What a let down. I honestly lol'd at the end of the train crash. I was like, "That's it?". All the commotion about this spectacular train crash. As a visual ... it as good. Aurally, kind fell flat. No harshness in my HT. Bass was loud but not extended. Didn't take me out of the movie or anything. I'm not that picky but this most certainly won't be a demo disk at all.
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Old 11-26-2011, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Hey, my LLT rocks the place quite appropriately.

Soooo... just got done with Super 8. Rented the Blu-ray from RedBox.

The 7.1 was pretty good! When the split surrounds were used, it was done very well. The bass was really ... not that great. What a let down. I honestly lol'd at the end of the train crash. I was like, "That's it?". All the commotion about this spectacular train crash. As a visual ... it as good. Aurally, kind fell flat. No harshness in my HT. Bass was loud but not extended. Didn't take me out of the movie or anything. I'm not that picky but this most certainly won't be a demo disk at all.

Exactly what I said but I enjoyed the movie. The bass was very loud as I put in some 5 star movies and it was the same except of course the 5 star pressurized the room and sometimes you felt like you were underwater.

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Old 11-26-2011, 10:37 PM
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Just finished super8- good movie but I would have to agree with bosso and some others..... Not super impressed- good surrounds and good movie overall... But when compared to some of my favs (flight of the Phoenix, wotw, battle of la) prob a four star at best
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Old 11-26-2011, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

I thought Super 8 was ok as far as bass goes. Didn't seem to be much of anything below 25-30Hz but what was there was loud. I recall a couple of parts being very loud. At the end of the train crash when the creature is trying to escape the train car being one. There was a really loud upper bass slam on that part. I wasn't bothered by the high end being harsh either. Yes there were some very loud upper frequencies during the train crash and later on... Very loud. Glass exploding and steel twisting and ripping apart is going to be harsh and loud though so I see that as the mixer doing their job well. I do wish there would have been a little bit more extension and level from the bass overall but what was there wasn't bad at all IMHO. YMMV.

A few scenes were a bit harsh for me but not bad at all- reminded me of that 2012 movie
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Old 11-27-2011, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Hey, my LLT rocks the place quite appropriately.


Soooo... just got done with Super 8. Rented the Blu-ray from RedBox.

The 7.1 was pretty good! When the split surrounds were used, it was done very well. The bass was really ... not that great. What a let down. I honestly lol'd at the end of the train crash. I was like, "That's it?". All the commotion about this spectacular train crash. As a visual ... it as good. Aurally, kind fell flat. No harshness in my HT. Bass was loud but not extended. Didn't take me out of the movie or anything. I'm not that picky but this most certainly won't be a demo disk at all.

Yeah. It could have been better for sure but I thought it was Ok. I'd give it 3 or maybe 3.5 stars for the bass. I think with all of the hype over it and the train crash that it ended up being a let down. Sort of like Avatar. Even though there is some bass there and it's not bad on some parts it just could have been so much more.

Lowered Expectations....
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Old 11-27-2011, 09:44 AM
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I watched X-men First Class again last night. Has anyone SL captured the scene at the end where the ships all fire at the beach and Magneto halts all of the ordinance? That part and a little bit later when Magneto chokes the female CIA operative with her necklace has some huge ULF. I'm just going from my gut here and what I felt in my room but I expect that there is a very large amount of sustained <16Hz there. Possibly some high level stuff near 10Hz.

5 stars for sure and probably bass movie of 2011 for me.

Bosso? Have you checked this part? I'd be interested to see what is actually occurring there. My room was breathing.
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Old 11-27-2011, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Yeah. It could have been better for sure but I thought it was Ok. I'd give it 3 or maybe 3.5 stars for the bass. I think with all of the hype over it and the train crash that it ended up being a let down. Sort of like Avatar. Even though there is some bass there and it's not bad on some parts it just could have been so much more.

Lowered Expectations....

Good point, especially wrt Avatar. I'd really like to understand the thinking used by the individuals involved with these major releases. When one considers the amount of investment involved, it's absolutely extraordinary. Taking it a few steps further, what valid reasons would the studio, a production team, director, sound designer, and engineering team possibly have to preclude them from utilizing world class extension, extension that truly imparts a more realistic sense of the action so expertly crafted on screen. Obviously capturing, recording, and post production techniques have diligently worked toward the realization of high resolution LF effects, and implementing them into the cinematic experience. Likewise, advancements in high resolution LF reproduction in the home cinematic experience have somewhat mirrored those from the studios.

That said, again,... why would anyone involved in these productions, knowingly limit the extension, and ultimate realism, associated with bringing these releases to the public?


We know;

1.) We encounter sounds that are well into the single digits, approaching DC, when exposed to our daily activities. Planes, trains, and automobiles, car doors, foot-falls, firearms, ordinance and explosions, percussive tools and instruments, you name it, it's all around and at varying levels of magnitude.

2.) When considering production efforts, including such encounters, with the associated extension is realistic.

3.) When considering production efforts, including such encounters, with-out the associated extension is un-realistic.

4.) Production efforts maximize these effects to heighten our level of excitement, impending sense of doom.

5.) Production efforts that minimize these effects, lower our level of excitement, and our impending sense of doom.

There should be no reason a big action, special effects blockbuster, should not possess state of the art extension. Now the magnitude, and the frequency of utilization of said extension is entirely an artistic one. Balance is key, just as spectral balance is. The skill-set of the design team should ultimately be the final arbiter, not a mis-applied HP filter somewhere between capture, and final dub stage mastering.

Similar to the bottom end, if the top two octaves were omitted, for whatever reason, an equal amount of disappointment, and outcry should also accompany a major release's acceptance.


Thoughts? Where am I wrong?

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Old 11-27-2011, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Ricci View Post


Bosso? Have you checked this part? I'd be interested to see what is actually occurring there.

Is a pigs a$$ pork?

Missiles:



Missiles halted and turned back:



Yeah, XMFC is the real deal. You're probably right about low end of the year.

The contenders for 2011:

Battle:LA
X-Men
Hanna

Bosso
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Old 11-27-2011, 01:01 PM
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Thanks Bosso.

Chart #2 = Eeeewwwww...

That looks about right. Seems the ULF was centered even lower than I thought. That is some rough stuff right there. I will have to try that with some "normal" subs and see how much of a difference there is.
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Old 11-27-2011, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Is a pigs a$$ pork?

Yeah, XMFC is the real deal. You're probably right about low end of the year.

The contenders for 2011:

Battle:LA
X-Men
Hanna

Bosso

I concur Bosso. I now own the first two and we recently rented Hanna. Will add that to the collection next year. I had at least a couple of wow moments with XMFC when we rented it so I ordered it during BF. Plus now I want to hear it with three ULS-15s in the house.

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Old 11-28-2011, 08:59 AM
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I have noticed that there are systems here that are heavily weighted toward bass or VLF . When you play a scene like the train crash in Super 8, you need to have a system (including the room itself) that is capable of producing the full frequency range at reference level without sounding "harsh". Only then do you get the full impact (pun intended). I believe that those who were disappointed in that scene are missing that balance. For the pure Holy ****e reaction, the Super 8 train crash and Knowing plane crash are really good HT demos regardless of the waterfall specifics of the content. I've got a neighborhood full of people who can attest to that.

Of course, those of you who have in-person experience with a locomotive crashing might, and likely will disagree.

Opinions are not facts.
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Old 11-28-2011, 09:30 AM
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Of course, those of you who have in-person experience with a locomotive crashing might, and likely will disagree.

My Uncle works at a rail yard now and I think he as seen and heard his fair share of derailments.

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Old 11-28-2011, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I have noticed that there are systems here that are heavily weighted toward bass or VLF . When you play a scene like the train crash in Super 8, you need to have a system (including the room itself) that is capable of producing the full frequency range at reference level without sounding "harsh". Only then do you get the full impact (pun intended). I believe that those who were disappointed in that scene are missing that balance. For the pure Holy ****e reaction, the Super 8 train crash and Knowing plane crash are really good HT demos regardless of the waterfall specifics of the content. I've got a neighborhood full of people who can attest to that.

Of course, those of you who have in-person experience with a locomotive crashing might, and likely will disagree.

Nonsense.

If you bump 1k-4k Hz, the Equal Loudness Curves tell you it will sound harsh. What speaker it comes out of is irrelevant.

Compared to the X-Men First Class-type effects, Super 8 is a 1980s boom box. As I said earlier, those (you included) who have systems that roll off at 20 Hz will not hear much difference from one movie to another, and that's cool, but to blame the difference on inadequate satellites is silly.

You have it bass-ackwards. Those of us who have wider bandwidth systems enjoy the full effect. A flat response to a lower F3 is not a weighted system. OTOH, a system that loses the 1st 3 octaves by early roll off is indeed a weighted system.

Bosso
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Old 11-28-2011, 09:49 AM
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I've played both scenes (Knowing plane crash) on my system with the same settings and Knowing sounds much better. Even though the sequences in Knowing do not extend much below 20hz. It just sounds better and much more dynamic, imo. In fact, I think other than the one in Cast Away, Knowing has the best sounding plane crash in a movie. However, I have not experienced a train or plane crash in person so maybe I have no say in this.

Heck, even with the seldom low extending Unstoppable train movie... those sure sounded a whole lot more robust and heavy than the huge train crash in Super 8.

EDIT: ahh, Mike and Bosso have the better response.
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Old 11-28-2011, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Nonsense.

If you bump 1k-4k Hz, the Equal Loudness Curves tell you it will sound harsh. What speaker it comes out of is irrelevant.

Compared to the X-Men First Class-type effects, Super 8 is a 1980s boom box. As I said earlier, those (you included) who have systems that roll off at 20 Hz will not hear much difference from one movie to another, and that's cool, but to blame the difference on inadequate satellites is silly.

You have it bass-ackwards. Those of us who have wider bandwidth systems enjoy the full effect. A flat response to a lower F3 is not a weighted system. OTOH, a system that loses the 1st 3 octaves by early roll off is indeed a weighted system.

Bosso

I'm thinking your ponytail is a little too tight Dave. It's not "satellites" that are often inadequate ... unless of course you consider all loudspeakers other than subs satellites ...

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Old 11-28-2011, 11:24 AM
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I liked Super 8 and the bass was OK, just not deep. I do like the Knowing much better and X-men is above both. It covers more frequencies and let's you feel and hear them. I would vote FOTP for best plane crash but the Knowing is very dynamic because it is super quiet right before it happens.

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Old 11-28-2011, 11:30 AM
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Oh, duh. Forgot about FotP. That's another one that is good.
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Old 11-28-2011, 11:44 AM
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Part of High Def Digests' take on Super 8 - "an audio presentation that's simply out of this world. The full-bodied 7.1 mix is sure to rumble your home's foundation."
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Old 11-28-2011, 11:48 AM
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Anyone could say that just by watching the trailer. The 7.1 was good when it was used but the mix was very front heavy. The bass was just average. Many members here have high standards when it comes to bass output and extension. Especially when there are so many others that do bass much better than Super 8. Hence the existence of this very thread.

The recent Dukes of Hazard remake had louder and deeper bass than Super 8. That should say something.
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Old 11-28-2011, 11:49 AM
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Oh, duh. Forgot about FotP. That's another one that is good.

Scott what movie is FotP, sorry for my ignorance

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Old 11-28-2011, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by centauro74 View Post

Scott what movie is FotP, sorry for my ignorance

Sorry. We're so used to abbreviating movies around here.

FotP = Flight of the Phoenix
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