The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts - Page 688 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #20611 of 22154 Old 04-10-2015, 08:33 AM
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Finally got around to watching the first two Hobbit movies. Boy, you guys were right about lack of bass. I think the deepest part of the 2nd movie was Smaug's baritone voice. I'm not even sure what I think of the movies because they wander away from the book so far in places. All in all, nothing like LOTR.
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post #20612 of 22154 Old 04-10-2015, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by galonzo View Post
...I've never had any issues with dialogue using my current RC10 (it's been surprisingly capable for its size); I'll typically use Audyssey MultEQ RC (Room Correction, it sets the center to -3), listen at around -18 to -20MV with Audyssey dynamic on. Even when I turn off all processing (leaving all RC trim levels exactly where Audyssey set them) and listen at around -12MV, everything is crystal clear.

My main motivation for upgrading the center was simply because it looks puny under the 78" (dual 4" cones, MTM design), so mainly aesthetics. The new, single (vertical) monitor will at least match my LR mains aesthetically, as well as sonically. Again, 99.8% movies, all channels crossed over at 80Hz. So we'll see
Update: got the new speaker(s), time for some comparisons. I watched the first half of the movie (Interstellar) with the old center, and didn't have any issues with dialogue (except for some possible intentional mumbling); I'll watch the rest later, then get the new center set up and watch with the fam (see if they are able to understand everything).
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UN78HU9000FXZA || Onkyo TX-NR616 (7.1; sub= HSU VTF-3 Mk 5, fronts= Klipsch R-3650-WIIs, center= RP-160M, surrounds= R-2650-Cs, rear surrounds= Polk RC80is) || Panny DMP-BD60 || Sony PS3 || AppleTV
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post #20613 of 22154 Old 04-10-2015, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post
Yea the S1 will go into the single digits. The frequency response listed on the JTR website is not in-room response. I use to have the S2 and sold it a couple of months ago and it was hitting single digits. The chart is actually on the first post of my theater thread in my signature. The s1 will do exactly the same as the s2 but just a few db's quieter. This is all room depended obviously.
Wow, you sold the S2 !, may I ask what you replaced it with and what did you find that you wanted to improve? I guess by adding a second S1 , that I will only accomplish more volume and not deeper, but if the S1 is already in the single digits deeper becomes less relevant?
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post #20614 of 22154 Old 04-10-2015, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galonzo View Post
Update: got the new speaker(s), time for some comparisons. I watched the first half of the movie (Interstellar) with the old center, and didn't have any issues with dialogue (except for some possible intentional mumbling); I'll watch the rest later, then get the new center set up and watch with the fam (see if they are able to understand everything).
So you are running two bookshelves as your center? How are they wired?

Edit: Just saw your explanation in the Klipsch thread

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post #20615 of 22154 Old 04-10-2015, 12:31 PM
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LOL. I'm sure you're not ignorant! Everyone hears stuff differently, which is clear from the range of opinions on this movie. I'm usually not sensitive to it, either--I didn't notice most of the clipping on Tron, either. Until it was pointed out and I listened for it on the second go-round.
Watch the scene in the beginning once he enters the grid, once the transporter flies overhead, clipping city. Now, with that said, I don't see it as an accident. Any of you fellas attended a race of the top fuel dragsters? Im not talking about our local 1/4 mile saturday night testosterone fest, Im talking about Tony Shumacher, John Force, alcohol fueled brutality. How about watched a turbine jet take off from (relatively) close quarters? Or even taken a ride in a helicopter and walked up to board while the rotors are still spinning. All these events make the same type "clipping" sound, but wait? There aren't even speakers reproducing the sound to clip! So why does it sound like that? It's JUST HOW IT SOUNDS. It is how it is SUPPOSED to sound. I think a vast majority of the clipping or hard limiting people hear and see in movie clips is 100% intentional, and with a budget and crew like Tron, Interstellar, etc have, I can't imagine engineers are dumb enough to miss the entire soundtrack so badly, and from a critic's (Us) standpoint, I for one just tend to accept most of it as part of the overall plan....

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I think Elysium suffers from a low level mix which is fixed by bumping it up a bit on the LFE channel. It's also renowned for a lot of content under 20Hz.
LOTS of good sub 20hz on elysium. I love that soundtrack.



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Wow, you sold the S2 !, may I ask what you replaced it with and what did you find that you wanted to improve? I guess by adding a second S1 , that I will only accomplish more volume and not deeper, but if the S1 is already in the single digits deeper becomes less relevant?

Perhaps deeper. The nice thing about sealed is, the more you add, the more efficient the sub system gets across the entire bass range. Ported will never go as low as sealed, but sealed will sacrifice more output down to the port tuning. The entire reason for porting commercial subs is to get more out of a single unit, as most folks will only ever have just one. Not the nuts around here, but the vast majority. Sealed effectively needs multiples, to get usable extension into the single digits. I am not sure how big your room is, but I needed 8 sealed 18's to get the amount of headroom I needed for my tastes before I could conceivably get to usable single digit output...
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post #20616 of 22154 Old 04-10-2015, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by jlanzy View Post
Wow, you sold the S2 !, may I ask what you replaced it with and what did you find that you wanted to improve? I guess by adding a second S1 , that I will only accomplish more volume and not deeper, but if the S1 is already in the single digits deeper becomes less relevant?

Beastaudio explain it good so I don't need to touch on any more except that adding subs does not make them play "deeper". It only makes them louder with proper power. Adding a second S1 will get you a smoother fq response across more seats, which is more important, while adding a few db's in spl.

I replaced the S2 with four UXL-18's and a peavy IPR2 7500 amp. I basically got all of that for the price that I sold the S2 for and I should get more than twice the output of the S2 across the entire bandwidth. I already have 8 diy 1260w's nearfield plus the four UXL18's will have a very clean sound all the way to 5 hz.

Here is a chart with the S2 and 8x 1260w's


I didn't scale the chart right by doing 10db increments on the SPL axis instead of 5db increments, but you can see the response the S2 and 1260w's get in my room. If I recall correctly, this chart was at -20MLV.
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post #20617 of 22154 Old 04-10-2015, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post
Beastaudio explain it good so I don't need to touch on any more except that adding subs does not make them play "deeper". It only makes them louder with proper power. Adding a second S1 will get you a smoother fq response across more seats, which is more important, while adding a few db's in spl.

I replaced the S2 with four UXL-18's and a peavy IPR2 7500 amp. I basically got all of that for the price that I sold the S2 for and I should get more than twice the output of the S2 across the entire bandwidth. I already have 8 diy 1260w's nearfield plus the four UXL18's will have a very clean sound all the way to 5 hz.

Here is a chart with the S2 and 8x 1260w's


I didn't scale the chart right by doing 10db increments on the SPL axis instead of 5db increments, but you can see the response the S2 and 1260w's get in my room. If I recall correctly, this chart was at -20MLV.
There's no point in scaling the graph when the line is dead flat..... Holy moly I bet that sounds clean!!!!
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post #20618 of 22154 Old 04-10-2015, 01:08 PM
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Watch the scene in the beginning once he enters the grid, once the transporter flies overhead, clipping city. Now, with that said, I don't see it as an accident. Any of you fellas attended a race of the top fuel dragsters? Im not talking about our local 1/4 mile saturday night testosterone fest, Im talking about Tony Shumacher, John Force, alcohol fueled brutality. How about watched a turbine jet take off from (relatively) close quarters? Or even taken a ride in a helicopter and walked up to board while the rotors are still spinning. All these events make the same type "clipping" sound, but wait? There aren't even speakers reproducing the sound to clip! So why does it sound like that? It's JUST HOW IT SOUNDS. It is how it is SUPPOSED to sound. I think a vast majority of the clipping or hard limiting people hear and see in movie clips is 100% intentional, and with a budget and crew like Tron, Interstellar, etc have, I can't imagine engineers are dumb enough to miss the entire soundtrack so badly, and from a critic's (Us) standpoint, I for one just tend to accept most of it as part of the overall plan....
Good point however, you are comparing sound in a fictional environment to sound in a real world environment and they are not the same thing.

We don't know how a transporter flying overhead really sounds because it doesn't exist in the real world so the clipping is most likely an intentional design.
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post #20619 of 22154 Old 04-10-2015, 01:12 PM
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There's no point in scaling the graph when the line is dead flat..... Holy moly I bet that sounds clean!!!!

Thanks! There is a little bit of smoothing on it but not much. The chart that I have done this week without the s2 and with some si HT18's is scaled better and I have a serious house curve on it! To me, this is way more fun.



When those UXL's arrive, that ULF should come up a few db's and I am really looking forward to that.

Those si HT18's are getting about 1200w each and are taking it just fine too.

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post #20620 of 22154 Old 04-10-2015, 01:27 PM
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Good point however, you are comparing sound in a fictional environment to sound in a real world environment and they are not the same thing.

We don't know how a transporter flying overhead really sounds because it doesn't exist in the real world so the clipping is most likely an intentional design.
No way. I have been around them since 83. At least a couple times a year, so I know exactly how they should sound

In all seriousness tho, you see on the transporter's "feet" it looks like two turbines in afterburn. I HAVE heard that and the sound is very similar. My point is, the engineers have to work from sounds they have derived in real life, thus the sounds you hear in the reproduction of the movie are their interpretations and experiences from the real world.

I think some of the engineers have done some really cool things for sound effects to create NEW types of sounds, like alien voices, ray guns, etc. but the majority of it they hinge on naturally occurring effects.

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Thanks! There is a little bit of smoothing on it but not much. The chart that I have done this week without the s2 and with some si HT18's is scaled better and I have a serious house curve on it! To me, this is way more fun.



When those UXL's arrive, that ULF should come up a few db's and I am really looking forward to that.

Those si HT18's are getting about 1200w each and are taking it just fine too.
See? I have been feeding mine over 1000 watts for a couple years now. No problemo! They are a beast of a speaker for the $$$ I couldn't be happier honestly

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post #20621 of 22154 Old 04-10-2015, 01:35 PM
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See? I have been feeding mine over 1000 watts for a couple years now. No problemo! They are a beast of a speaker for the $$$ I couldn't be happier honestly
I wonder if the people that have had issues with them have been feeding them clipped signals? That definitely could be an issue.

Yes, for the money, they can't be beat. I bought both of mine for 159 each and free shipping in January. I couldn't pass that deal up even though I was trying to get the UXL's and wasn't sure if I was going to be able to. Luckily, I'm in on the first list in the group buy.
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post #20622 of 22154 Old 04-10-2015, 02:55 PM
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Pain, your graphs are amazing. I can only imagine how great your theater sounds right now. Nice job.
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post #20623 of 22154 Old 04-10-2015, 03:53 PM
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Pain, your graphs are amazing. I can only imagine how great your theater sounds right now. Nice job.
Thank you sir!
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post #20624 of 22154 Old 04-10-2015, 06:17 PM
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What your describing is a different issue than what is being discussed at data-bass from my reading, but someone else more familiar with the topic can speak better to this.
So there was also a second issue? ...With the multichannel analog connection of the Oppo 103 and 105.
1. Speaker's distances (delay) was resolved with a firmware update, much later on.
2. Now a clipping issue with loud moments (bass)? ...And that one is unresolved.
...But it happens only with flicks that have those loud moments; am I reading this correctly or is there more to it?
Is it an issue with some Blu-ray discs or with some Oppo BR players?

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post #20625 of 22154 Old 04-10-2015, 06:29 PM
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It's crazy how many people did not like Godzilla. I liked it, but then again I'm easily entertained. Most of the people that didn't like it liked the old remake better. I hated that one.
'Godzilla' was truly terrible, mushy, and not entertaining. ...Grey, sad, boring acting. ...Picture nothing to get too excited, story even less, and sound has its moments, and that is all really. Yeah, those new "squared" monsters they had it coming; I don't blame poor godzy for that.

That's what I saw and felt. ...And I just said it.

* Bass was on certain spots.

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post #20626 of 22154 Old 04-10-2015, 06:35 PM
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If you are going to mix ported and sealed, you will need to understand how to tune if you don't already. External dsp is a must. Audyssey alone will not tune the bass correctly.
Could you please elaborate on that; mixed ported (vented) and sealed subwoofers? ...And Audyssey? ...And external DSP EQs? ...And a must?

Brief; corrected, balanced bass tuning and the requirements...thank you very much.

* Edit: I just saw your graph above; WoW! ...5 clean Hertz!

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post #20627 of 22154 Old 04-10-2015, 06:39 PM
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Ha! ALL movies fall into the category you mention!

On that note, me and the GF watched Whiplash last night and that IMO is one of the best movies I have seen in the last few years and she felt the same way. Not a bass movie, but the kick drum is recorded reasonably well (Ive certainly heard better on various multichannel music and stereo discs) and the music in general sounds fantastic.
♦ I agree with you, and with your girlfriend.
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post #20628 of 22154 Old 04-10-2015, 06:43 PM
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'Godzilla' was truly terrible, mushy, and not entertaining. ...Grey, sad, boring acting. ...Picture nothing to get too excited, story even less, and sound has its moments, and that is all really. Yeah, those new "squared" monsters they had it coming; I don't blame poor godzy for that.

That's what I saw and felt. ...And I just said it.

* Bass was on certain spots.
Tough crowd

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post #20629 of 22154 Old 04-10-2015, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by galonzo View Post
Update: got the new speaker(s), time for some comparisons. I watched the first half of the movie (Interstellar) with the old center, and didn't have any issues with dialogue (except for some possible intentional mumbling); I'll watch the rest later, then get the new center set up and watch with the fam (see if they are able to understand everything).
Your Sammy TV looks totally gorgeous! Sorry for the OT.
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post #20630 of 22154 Old 04-10-2015, 06:46 PM
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Could you please elaborate on that; mixed ported (vented) and sealed subwoofers? ...And Audyssey? ...And external DSP EQs? ...And a must?

Brief; corrected, balanced bass tuning and the requirements...thank you very much.
Sure....Audyssey sucks at sub calibration all together, and it doesn't even get the distance (delay) setting completely correct, but somewhat close. Mixing ported and sealed requires tuning because of the phase shift around port tune. Setting delays will help but still can require more tuning to get it to work together seamlessly. Relying on audyssey alone to do this is a recipe for disappointment. This is why an external dsp like the minidsp is required.
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post #20631 of 22154 Old 04-10-2015, 07:04 PM
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Tough crowd
Hey, life it is, and I just tell it so. ...Those are my ears and eyes, and this is my brain.
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post #20632 of 22154 Old 04-10-2015, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post
Sure....Audyssey sucks at sub calibration all together, and it doesn't even get the distance (delay) setting completely correct, but somewhat close. Mixing ported and sealed requires tuning because of the phase shift around port tune. Setting delays will help but still can require more tuning to get it to work together seamlessly. Relying on audyssey alone to do this is a recipe for disappointment. This is why an external dsp like the minidsp is required.
Only the MiniDSP?

* As for phase shifts between ported and sealed subs; I agree. ...Not only around the tuning port frequency but also around the cut off low pass filter.

♥ Your graph sure do look Perfect. I'm all in.
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post #20633 of 22154 Old 04-10-2015, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Only the MiniDSP?

* As for phase shifts between ported and sealed subs; I agree. ...Not only around the tuning port frequency but also around the cut off low pass filter.

♥ Your graph sure do look Perfect. I'm all in.
Thanks! Yes around crossover, audyssey has issues as well and I adjust that area too.

Any dsp that has time delay will work. I was mentioning the minidsp as an example. The minidsp only has 7.5ms of delay max, so take that into consideration if purchasing it. Really that is the only downfall of the minidsp. Other than that, it is wonderful.
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post #20634 of 22154 Old 04-11-2015, 08:21 AM
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Ha! ALL movies fall into the category you mention!



On that note, me and the GF watched Whiplash last night and that IMO is one of the best movies I have seen in the last few years and she felt the same way. Not a bass movie, but the kick drum is recorded reasonably well (Ive certainly heard better on various multichannel music and stereo discs) and the music in general sounds fantastic.

Wish I'd read this ... I used my free Google Play movie rental (from Chromecast offers) for JOHN WICK, and though it entertained, I'd have loved to hear more great surround effects....

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post #20635 of 22154 Old 04-11-2015, 10:02 AM
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Post Horizontal vs. Vertical Center Design Comparison

RC-10, horizontal center (MTM), rated at 75w cont/300w peak @ 8 Ω, MultEQ consistently sets to -3, 70Hz
RP-160M, vertical monitor, rated at 100w cont/400w peak @ 8 Ω, MultEQ consistently sets to +2, 40Hz

I had previously posted that my normal setup is to run Audyssey MultEQ(room correction), go back in and set all channels to 80Hz (since they all get set to ~50Hz +/- 10Hz).

The RP-160M has a more natural sound, but this could be due to the newly updated, rubbery Tractrix horn design. It sounds less harsh, hence the discrepancy in the trim levels set by Audyssey.

After I watched the first half of Interstellar with the old center, using Direct (all sound processing turned off, only sub trim +3, main volume at -12db), I then re-ran MultEQ with the new center, did the exact same setup and re-watched the movie (this time with the fam, same volume).

Like I had previously mentioned, the first time through there was some not-so-easy to understand “mumbling and/or whispering” dialogue; but I didn’t go back and re-listen (knowing I would re-watch anyway). With the new, vertical center, any mumbling that I didn’t quite get the first time was definitely easier to make out. I suppose it’s possible that this may be the case hearing it once before, but my 17 year old (who typically hangs on every word) never once asked for a rewind. The wife wasn’t interested, but on the 17 year-old’s recommendation, she will join the next viewing and we’ll get another set of ears on it…

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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Your Sammy TV looks totally gorgeous! Sorry for the OT.
Thanks

UN78HU9000FXZA || Onkyo TX-NR616 (7.1; sub= HSU VTF-3 Mk 5, fronts= Klipsch R-3650-WIIs, center= RP-160M, surrounds= R-2650-Cs, rear surrounds= Polk RC80is) || Panny DMP-BD60 || Sony PS3 || AppleTV

Last edited by galonzo; 04-11-2015 at 10:05 AM.
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post #20636 of 22154 Old 04-11-2015, 09:29 PM
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Just finished the The Hobbit BO5A and came away very impressed as the bass had some good moments were it was digging pretty low! This was a far cry from the previous two which had more than a few obvious moments of "hey were's the bass" A special nod should be given to the overall sound mix, as it was a very enveloping mix and just kept me completely engaged with the movie. In the end there's no way to make up for the first two's bass (not as a movie) but if your thinking its like them you may be in for a surprise, first class all the way

Gets 4 stars in my book
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Last edited by audiofan1; 04-11-2015 at 09:33 PM.
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post #20637 of 22154 Old 04-12-2015, 06:35 AM
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Are we heading into a BASS drought or what ? I have looked at Blu-Ray.com and don't see anything new until May-19 when American Sniper will be released and I don't know if it will have bass or not !!
Please post up if I'm missing something. I'm waiting on Exodus: Gods and Kings to arrive from "slow" Netflix to give that a spin on BD. I did give TRON a re-spin last night and the bass in that one is very, very impressive !! WOW !!

MY 7.4 SET UP. Not Perfect But Let's Just Say I'm Happy !!
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post #20638 of 22154 Old 04-12-2015, 08:23 AM
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Watched Exodus last night at -10MV and was not that impressed with bass. The last movie I watched that impressed me was the maze runner.
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post #20639 of 22154 Old 04-12-2015, 09:38 AM
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The Maze Runner is an excellent flick and is one of the better releases that truly utilize all surround speakers. It really put you inside the Glade and the creaks and groans from the maze itself were pretty awesome.
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post #20640 of 22154 Old 04-12-2015, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post
Just finished the The Hobbit BO5A and came away very impressed as the bass had some good moments were it was digging pretty low! This was a far cry from the previous two which had more than a few obvious moments of "hey were's the bass" A special nod should be given to the overall sound mix, as it was a very enveloping mix and just kept me completely engaged with the movie. In the end there's no way to make up for the first two's bass (not as a movie) but if your thinking its like them you may be in for a surprise, first class all the way

Gets 4 stars in my book
That's good to hear because I finally got around to watching the first two Hobbit films in the past week or so and was sad to see just how weak the bass was (and I already knew from this thread that they were weak). Good the hear you find the the third movie strong.
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