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Old 06-14-2015, 04:34 PM
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Cueing it up in about 30 mins. I'll post my thoughts after
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Old 06-14-2015, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by GPBURNS View Post
I started Monsters the other day - only about 1/2 hour in. got called out. Will finish later.
Man - loudest movie ever for sure - when I heard opening gun shots- was thinking this will be fun but I had to turn dial down from reference by about
4-5 DB after few minutes - was not a pleasing loud at all - badly compressed.
Exactly! Track definitely seems compressed and even though I enjoyed it for the most part, I would not call it quality audio.

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Originally Posted by Emaych View Post



Just an isolated example, .....
Yep and doesn't prove anything for numerous reasons. Not to mention Monsters is mastered at a considerably LOUDER level vs Oblivion and louder is commonly perceived as better. Oblivion is the type of mix that keeps begging you to turn it up it sounds so good and clean while Monsters just has that compressed type quality to my ears and is just not in the same league as far as general audio quality goes.

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I also have to say that I find this most curious: "One of the absolute loudest tracks I have ever listened to in my HT I would have to say which is usually not a good sign of the audio quality in general." I seem to have pretty good success with tracks which up the ante some -- I can adjust downward with fair contentment and little sacrifice, but turning up when the track is low, is really unappealing to me -- rarely pays off, and induces unfortunate collateral aspects. And as to wanting to know how the sound measures out -- just plain weird to me. My ears tell me if I'm hearing the "quality" (or qualities) I'm listening for, but just another difference between us, I suppose.

...

You make absolutely ZERO sense here. It's very simple to turn the volume knob a few clicks up on a well mixed and non compressed track to get to your desired volume level, but you cant get back missing info on a highly compressed track and tweak out the harsh quality this type of mastering brings.


Also, I agree that movies can be good for many reasons, I just did not find Monsters good enough past a fun Fri night rent, but that is just me. Glad you enjoyed it more than me. When talking about just the film itself (acting, plot, etc....like you were talking about in the post I responded too) and putting aside the technical merits, I always ask myself if I would still enjoy it without the HT factor and Monsters for me was a clear NO. I do agree though that once the technical merits are accounted for that this can be a reason for a movie to be good, I just did not find enough of that in Monsters to overshadow the weak points past a fun one time Fri night rent, but again, glad you enjoyed the experience more.
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Old 06-14-2015, 05:03 PM
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Umm, false equivalence is still false.

Are the dogs present in the same space, situation, and relation to each other?

As you have admitted you prefer poor quality audio in favor of loudness and more distortion at the sacrifice of true real dynamics and compelling deep bass.

Compressed tracks certainly sound exciting but they all lack depth and nuance with nothing to truly anticipate and enjoy.

Take for example TDK versus TDKR, even though both are rather compressed mixes TDK sounds vastly superior and provides more fully body bass thanks to the extra headroom for some transients. Whereas TDKR is just loud and distorted. I have seen the waveforms and the dynamic ranger numbers and TDKR is a bricked mess.

The best mixed tracks that have true transients, dynamics, and thrilling deep full body bass usually have lower volume level in order to ensure all those awesome qualities are present.

Both of the bands of my handle have had their earlier work 'remastered' and if one does a direct comparison initially the remaster sounds better due to the higher gain but have sacrificed many things to achieve that increased volume.

KMFDM's album Angst has a great cross section of sounds but one of the first things lost in the compressed remaster is the deep full bodied bass. The newly mastered bass lines are louder but lack resonance, depth; simply does not dig as deep. Vocals are squished into everything else resulting in really no difference, everything is effectively the same level. Never mind the extra distortion that destroys the original vocals qualities, especially with the less voxed ones.

DR: Album Average = 13dbs for the original 1993 release.
DR: Album Average = 6dbs for the remaster 2006 release.

It is all about trade offs and the pursuit of louder average volume sucks the life out of things.

Recently heard the vinyl rip of one song from their newest album and the same issue was present. The vinyl master was several decibels more dynamic with actual transients and the bass much better in comparison to the CD master.

The only good 'comparable' sound effect I can suggest for comparison in a movie in regards to bass is the Warp sound effects in Star Trek 2009 versus the ones in ST:ID. ST09 has deeper fuller bass whereas STID is loud but very flat and lacks any resonance.

Another is listening to the big T-rex reveal in Jurassic Park, the original 2D BR release has a more compressed mix than the original DTS or the new mix on the 3D BR. I did a comparison of the LD-DTS, DVD-DTS, 2D-BR-DTSMA, and the 3D-BR-DTSMA last year and the 3D mix is the best version of the bunch.

Best regards,
KvE
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Old 06-14-2015, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post
Exactly! Track definitely seems compressed and even though I enjoyed it for the most part, I would not call it quality audio.



Yep and doesn't prove anything for numerous reasons. Not to mention Monsters is mastered at a considerably LOUDER level vs Oblivion and louder is commonly perceived as better. Oblivion is the type of mix that keeps begging you to turn it up it sounds so good and clean while Monsters just has that compressed type quality to my ears and is just not in the same league as far as general audio quality goes.
Well, there it is again -- somehow enjoying it is different from it having quality? So you obviously can have non-quality, but enjoyable audio, does that mean you can have quality audio that is not enjoyable too? What would be the purpose of labeling things that way? I'm looking for that quality of audio which provides my enjoyment, but maybe that really is just me.

And I agree, dog example PROVES nothing, just a curious anecdote which I think still does convey something along the lines of comparison of two experiences.
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Old 06-14-2015, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Emaych View Post
Well, there it is again -- somehow enjoying it is different from it having quality? So you obviously can have non-quality, but enjoyable audio, does that mean you can have quality audio that is not enjoyable too? What would be the purpose of labeling things that way? I'm looking for that quality of audio which provides my enjoyment, but maybe that really is just me.

And I agree, dog example PROVES nothing, just a curious anecdote which I think still does convey something along the lines of comparison of two experiences.

So I cant still enjoy something that is flawed to some degree? Yes, I can still enjoy the audio while acknowledging that it has issues and could and should have been better. Another example is the chicken I am eating right now......I am enjoying it greatly, but I cooked it too long (similar to the audio track on Monsters ) and it is a bit dry/burnt so it could and should have been better.
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Old 06-14-2015, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya View Post
Umm, false equivalence is still false.

Are the dogs present in the same space, situation, and relation to each other?

As you have admitted you prefer poor quality audio in favor of loudness and more distortion at the sacrifice of true real dynamics and compelling deep bass.

Compressed tracks certainly sound exciting but they all lack depth and nuance with nothing to truly anticipate and enjoy.

Best regards,
KvE
Dogs were not same species. Dogs were not in same space. Dogs were not recorded the same. Dogs were not mixed the same. Dogs were not in the same movie, or did I make that clear? And the sound was not equivalent either. One sounded real to my ear, the other did not. As I've suggested, make of that anecdote what you will.

Seems you want to invent for yourself my half of any communication, so perhaps it will be a failed endeavor and utterly without point to provide POV from my end in attempted exchange, but whatever properties make a track sound exciting, yeah, I'd probably like that. You say above that compressed tracks sound exciting, but then it seems you want to backtrack on that and impose a whole set of standards that will, if you are not careful, deprive you of that excitement, or being able to appreciate the excitement for what it is.

I think I generally tend to choose to be content when I'm excited about a track, and I have all kinds of varieties to amuse myself...
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Old 06-14-2015, 05:45 PM
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So I cant still enjoy something that is flawed to some degree? Yes, I can still enjoy the audio while acknowledging that it has issues and could and should have been better. Another example is the chicken I am eating right now......I am enjoying it greatly, but I cooked it too long (similar to the audio track on Monsters ) and it is a bit dry/burnt so it could and should have been better.
OK, that's totally fair, just don't let the overseer preclude the fun!
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Old 06-14-2015, 06:00 PM
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You make absolutely ZERO sense here. It's very simple to turn the volume knob a few clicks up on a well mixed and non compressed track to get to your desired volume level, but you cant get back missing info on a highly compressed track and tweak out the harsh quality this type of mastering brings.


Also, I agree that movies can be good for many reasons, I just did not find Monsters good enough past a fun Fri night rent, but that is just me. Glad you enjoyed it more than me. When talking about just the film itself (acting, plot, etc....like you were talking about in the post I responded too) and putting aside the technical merits, I always ask myself if I would still enjoy it without the HT factor and Monsters for me was a clear NO. I do agree though that once the technical merits are accounted for that this can be a reason for a movie to be good, I just did not find enough of that in Monsters to overshadow the weak points past a fun one time Fri night rent, but again, glad you enjoyed the experience more.
I've just rarely had success turning up a movie to get to where I want to be. Got plenty of older films on blu that feature 5.1 audio -- even were I to go through elevating all the channels for the loudness I desire, I somehow don't think I'm going to get to something pleasurable, so I usually bail -- just the way it works for me.

And I'm right with you on evaluating a movie minus the A/V experience -- would I want to watch without those technical merits accounted for? The answer is for me ALWAYS no -- I won't be watching it if it does not exhibit awesomeness there -- when it is there, that is a "good" film. I won't say the other is bad, just that it doesn't matter -- I won't be watching on my home theater...
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Old 06-14-2015, 06:33 PM
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Dogs were not same species. Dogs were not in same space. Dogs were not recorded the same. Dogs were not mixed the same. Dogs were not in the same movie, or did I make that clear? And the sound was not equivalent either. One sounded real to my ear, the other did not. As I've suggested, make of that anecdote what you will.
Then if you acknowledge that your anecdote does not represent sufficient similarity for reasonable comparison for the premise, that I will surmise as such, "A hot mix reproduces more 'realistic' audio cues than a more dynamic lower volume mix." then what was the purpose of bringing it up?

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... You say above that compressed tracks sound exciting, but then it seems you want to backtrack on that and impose a whole set of standards that will, if you are not careful, deprive you of that excitement, or being able to appreciate the excitement for what it is.
Perhaps I should have phrased 'exciting' as "physiological shock response from over stimulation of the auditory senses which often skews the listeners perception of what constitutes quality dynamic audio," but for the sake of brevity I used exciting instead.

It is no different than if one attempts to listen to different audio equipment and demo is not level matched if comparing two different speaker systems. The louder one is going to sound better even if in fact it is not as good.

Case in point Bose systems are often demoed in a manner where it is difficult for the average listener to discern the lack of fidelity the cubes systems produce. Since they are always played at a louder volume than other systems they fool many people into believing those tiny speakers are high fidelity systems.

Anther comparison to draw from is a calibrated display versus one set to torch mode, some prefer torch mode over the less 'exciting' but accurate and consistent high fidelity visuals of a calibrated setting.

My listening criteria is quality over quantity and if distortion is all too prominent and audible then I am going to turn off that garbage. My time and system requires better.

I realize some folks simply prefer and enjoy certain aspects more than others. Such as several here will slog through various films with terrible narratives but have compelling visuals and audio.

Myself I desire a balance of all those aspects in a film but I cannot subject myself to really dumb movies just for eye and ear candy. YMMV.

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I think I generally tend to choose to be content when I'm excited about a track, and I have all kinds of varieties to amuse myself...
That is fine and your prerogative, enjoy what pleases you.

My earlier post was not specifically directed towards you but rather in the broader sense that I have found that other posters share similar preferences as you, in that favoring loud mixes over true dynamic mixes. I hate overly compressed mixes and it is annoying to read positive reviews for mixes that I then discover to sound rather unimpressive and lacking in the aspects of quality high fidelity mixes.

Louder is not necessarily better.

Oblivion was a great mix and refreshingly engaging audio experience, in light of many other mixes, that has great dynamics and some excellent bass. I personally feel the mix could have used a smidge less compression for the top end but overall it was well done. Also found Chappie to be a pretty nice mix for dynamics and bass for a recent title.

I simply would appreciate better distinction and clarity between compressed mixes versus dynamic mixes.

Best regards,
KvE

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Old 06-14-2015, 07:46 PM
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Then if you acknowledge that your anecdote does not represent sufficient similarity for reasonable comparison for the premise, that I will surmise as such, "A hot mix reproduces more 'realistic' audio cues than a more dynamic lower volume mix." then what was the purpose of bringing it up?
As I noted, probably a doomed enterprise to offer my perspective, as you are deciding for yourself what I'd like to say, but just this last: of course I did not say my anecdote did not represent "sufficient" similarity. It was one recording of a dog versus another recording -- one sounded real to me, the other not so much -- not only was that sufficient for my purposes, it very aptly illustrated that whatever irrelevent pontification you muster concerning good versus bad sound, the "bad" mix of MONSTERS came closer to fooling my ear, than the "good" mix of OBLIVION. That is all -- do with that as you will.

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Perhaps I should have phrased 'exciting' as "physiological shock response from over stimulation of the auditory senses which often skews the listeners perception of what constitutes quality dynamic audio," but for the sake of brevity I used exciting instead.
Good enough. Yeah, yeah, like that --"physiological shock response" -- sounds like that could definitely be exciting. Over-stimulation of audio senses, yeah, probably exciting. Skewing perception that you are listening to good audio, yeah, I'd say check again, probably exciting -- if I'm really fooled, fooled completely, oh yeah, every bit as good as when it is "real."

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My listening criteria is quality over quantity and if distortion is all too prominent and audible then I am going to turn off that garbage. My time and system requires better.

Myself I desire a balance of all those aspects in a film but I cannot subject myself to really dumb movies just for eye and ear candy. YMMV.
Sounds like you have some real specific ideas of what suits you in the audio realm -- best advice I might give is look around, test some tracks, I think you might find some that conform to what you are looking for, or maybe not...

As to dumb movies -- here is where I sit: mounting a film production is a dream enterprise -- drawing sometimes hundreds of persons from disparate fields together for a season of laying down record of the best your talents can bring to bear. Intended to entertain -- just aimed to bring people some measure of happiness and enhance our American economy in the process. Stands for all time. Don't know about you, but I dare say putting forth the production which is MONSTERS, probably beats the heck out of any of my efforts on the job for the last year, so I have great admiration for the enterprise. If a particular movie is not too stimulating outside of AV, I have no trouble amusing myself by mentally rewriting it -- imagine myself the better filmmaker. I happen to like the films I rewrite, so...but whatever.
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My earlier post was not specifically directed towards you but rather in the broader sense that I have found that other posters share similar preferences as you, in that favoring loud mixes over true dynamic mixes. I hate overly compressed mixes and it is annoying to read positive reviews for mixes that I then discover to sound rather unimpressive and lacking in the aspects of quality high fidelity mixes.
I'm beginning to think you should steer clear of MONSTERS -- might not be your cup of tea.
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Old 06-15-2015, 04:03 AM
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Turned MONSTERS. Off after an hour because I was exhausted from a busy day. But the bass better pick up cause so far it's pretty lame. And the movie and sound are awful.
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Old 06-15-2015, 04:25 AM
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Turned MONSTERS. Off after an hour because I was exhausted from a busy day. But the bass better pick up cause so far it's pretty lame. And the movie and sound are awful.
I did the same...and I wasn't exhausted!

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Old 06-15-2015, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya View Post

Another is listening to the big T-rex reveal in Jurassic Park, the original 2D BR release has a more compressed mix than the original DTS or the new mix on the 3D BR. I did a comparison of the LD-DTS, DVD-DTS, 2D-BR-DTSMA, and the 3D-BR-DTSMA last year and the 3D mix is the best version of the bunch.

Best regards,
KvE
With all the Jurassic Park excitement this weekend, I fired up the original DTS version. After watching the tv versions so many times, I forgotten how sweet this mix really is The T-rex scene is totally immersive, real monster stomp and real monster roar
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Old 06-15-2015, 06:20 AM
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Turned MONSTERS. Off after an hour because I was exhausted from a busy day. But the bass better pick up cause so far it's pretty lame. And the movie and sound are awful.
So that's a wrap. I'm thinking we can call the gamut fully fleshed out at this point -- testimonials now stand at possibly best of all time, to enjoyable but flawed, to so awful it hurts. All is as it should be, cosmos in perfect alignment after another weekend of movies.

Particularly delightful weekend for me with that new multichannel -- thought I might sell my other amps, but....might just go ahead and keep them all and rotate to taste of the moment! -- I like certain properties of each, and variety is the spice of life -- bliss to have choices....
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Old 06-15-2015, 09:03 AM
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... Another example is the chicken I am eating right now......I am enjoying it greatly, but I cooked it too long (similar to the audio track on Monsters ) and it is a bit dry/burnt so it could and should have been better.
Phone rang last night when I was cooking on the grill. I made the mistake of answering. Dumb move. We ended up with something sort of like chicken jerky. Tasty, but chewy.

Made it upstairs in time for Game of Thrones, which has decent bass for a tv show, but the way they keep killing off characters there may be nobody left but the White Walkers next season.
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Old 06-15-2015, 09:37 AM
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How does the new SpongeBob movie rate? Watching it with my daughter and the bass seems very impressive!

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Old 06-15-2015, 10:01 AM
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Phone rang last night when I was cooking on the grill. I made the mistake of answering. Dumb move. We ended up with something sort of like chicken jerky. Tasty, but chewy.

Made it upstairs in time for Game of Thrones, which has decent bass for a tv show, but the way they keep killing off characters there may be nobody left but the White Walkers next season.
Funny as that is pretty much what happened to me, except it was an email. Got distracted and next thing I know my chicken is part jerky.
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Old 06-15-2015, 11:42 AM
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I've just rarely had success turning up a movie to get to where I want to be. Got plenty of older films on blu that feature 5.1 audio -- even were I to go through elevating all the channels for the loudness I desire, I somehow don't think I'm going to get to something pleasurable, so I usually bail -- just the way it works for me.

And I'm right with you on evaluating a movie minus the A/V experience -- would I want to watch without those technical merits accounted for? The answer is for me ALWAYS no -- I won't be watching it if it does not exhibit awesomeness there -- when it is there, that is a "good" film. I won't say the other is bad, just that it doesn't matter -- I won't be watching on my home theater...
You are severely limiting yourself, IMO. There are some really great movies out there that don't necessarily excel in the "A/V experience".

Some that I've watched recently and really enjoyed (and with a couple, I'm not too embarrassed to say...cried my eyes out):

Still Alice
You're Not You
Wild
The Theory of Everything
The Imitation Game

Those are just some in recent memory that didn't necessarily excel in the audio department, but were very enjoyable and engaging none the less....and movies I could watch with just the TV speakers and still be engaged (although, being the HT enthusiast I am, I never would ).

To me, what separates a "good" movie from a "great" movie is not the technical merits of the A/V but the emotional engagement. If I'm not emotionally invested in the characters, I can not in good conscience rate any movie as "great".


Now, back to your regularly scheduled Movies with Bass!
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Old 06-15-2015, 11:58 AM
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You are severely limiting yourself, IMO. There are some really great movies out there that don't necessarily excel in the "A/V experience".

Some that I've watched recently and really enjoyed (and with a couple, I'm not too embarrassed to say...cried my eyes out):

Still Alice
You're Not You
Wild
The Theory of Everything
The Imitation Game

Those are just some in recent memory that didn't necessarily excel in the audio department, but were very enjoyable and engaging none the less....and movies I could watch with just the TV speakers and still be engaged (although, being the HT enthusiast I am, I never would ).

To me, what separates a "good" movie from a "great" movie is not the technical merits of the A/V but the emotional engagement. If I'm not emotional invested in the characters, I can not in good conscience rate any movie as "great".


Now, back to your regularly scheduled Movies with Bass!
Thank you, good brother, for your thoughtful post. I know what you say is true -- and often enough there really is a somewhat appalling derth of human connection in sci-fi/action oriented fare -- no doubt on that point. Problem is, I just can't justify firing up the big rig if the AV is not going to blow me away -- I lose interest, too much else to watch, expecially with a new amp crying out to be fed.

I can think of one example lately that was not all crash and bang for audio, but still very pleasant, and quite a nice track within its own domain -- I think it was free through REDBOX or something, so watched it: GONE GIRL. Had some pretty sweet audio though didn't hit you over the head with it.

Some of my posts are at least a little somewhat facetious to make a point, but for practical purposes, I really don't watch the type of movies you list (and never saw any of those), but be assured, I am vaguely aware that makes me something of a cultural churl.
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Old 06-15-2015, 12:00 PM
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To me, what separates a "good" movie from a "great" movie is not the technical merits of the A/V but the emotional engagement. If I'm not emotional invested in the characters, I can not in good conscience rate any movie as "great"
Exactly...it's the people that matter. The booms and bangs are great and can add to the experience but only have secondary importance for me.
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Old 06-15-2015, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by mnc View Post
How does the new SpongeBob movie rate? Watching it with my daughter and the bass seems very impressive!
Never seen Spongebob but here's a few with good bass ones that I've enjoyed with the kids

Big Hero 6
Turbo
Planes: Fire & Rescue
Rio & Rio2
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Old 06-15-2015, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wpbpete View Post
Never seen Spongebob but here's a few with good bass ones that I've enjoyed with the kids

Big Hero 6
Turbo
Planes: Fire & Rescue
Rio & Rio2
No offense but that list is not good for bass at all

Kids movies with bass:

Finding nemo
Monsters inc
The incredibles
Horton hears a who
Ratatouille
Toy story 2

And the granddaddy

How to train your dragon
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Old 06-15-2015, 12:23 PM
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Add earth to echo to that list. I haven't seen it but the account of the ship scene at the end looks insane....
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Old 06-15-2015, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Add earth to echo to that list. I haven't seen it but the account of the ship scene at the end looks insane....
I haven't seen this either but my kids were watching it one day upstairs while I was in the basement and I heard a lot of bass coming throughout the floor.
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Old 06-15-2015, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
No offense but that list is not good for bass at all

Kids movies with bass:

Finding nemo
Monsters inc
The incredibles
Horton hears a who
Ratatouille
Toy story 2

And the granddaddy

How to train your dragon
No offense taken I like your list better imo BH6 and Turbo would hold their own... I would also include TMNT2
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Old 06-15-2015, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by wpbpete View Post
No offense taken I like your list better imo BH6 and Turbo would hold their own... I would also include TMNT2
Turbo isn't too bad. From databass.com
Turbo (7.1 DTS-HD MA)

Level - 2 Stars (106.9dB composite)
Extension - 3 Star (19Hz)
Dynamics - 5 Stars (30.91dB)
Execution - 3 Stars (by poll)

Overall - 3.25 Stars

Recommendation - Rent (by poll)

Notes: Decent track for bass, although I think I liked the original Cars better; will have to measure that one. This track is appropriately mixed with what I'd call a delicate touch. Nothing's very low or very loud, but it has good dynamics. Touted as being "from the makers of MADAGASCAR and KUNG FU PANDA" by the IMDb synopsis, Turbo is probably the dumbest plot I've ever seen. I wouldn't even rent this unless you have kids who beg for it.

PvA:

Turbo-PvA-HighRes.PNG

Big hero 6 was a disappointment for me
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Old 06-15-2015, 06:40 PM
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Admiral roaring currents

Now THIS is a movie with fantastic deep bass and excellent sound! It begs to be cranked up

Bad a$$ movie too
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Old 06-15-2015, 06:50 PM
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Brave is another kids movie with excellent bass and fantastic audio in general! Not to mention excellent 3d if your into that sort of thing.
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Old 06-15-2015, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
Admiral roaring currents

Now THIS is a movie with fantastic deep bass and excellent sound! It begs to be cranked up

Bad a$$ movie too
Well, alright then, good enough -- if you go back, or perhaps you recall, I think I was the one to first raise both MONSTERS: DC and ADMIRAL ROARING CURRENTS in this thread. So can I consider myself somewhat redeemed after this last viewing of yours?


Of course I thought they both rocked big time -- sounded completely different for sure, but told you I liked the variety which spices my life...do I need to ask if you ever got back to MONSTERS?
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Old 06-15-2015, 07:04 PM
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Well, alright then, good enough -- if you go back, or perhaps you recall, I think I was the one to first raise both MONSTERS: DC and ADMIRAL ROARING CURRENTS in this thread. So can I consider myself somewhat redeemed after this last viewing of yours?


Of course I thought they both rocked big time -- sounded completely different for sure, but told you I liked the variety which spices my life...do I need to ask if you ever got back to MONSTERS?
no I haven't. And not sure when or if I will. The sound was so thin from being compressed. It was obnoxious. But I may. We shall see
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