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post #21871 of 25604 Old 07-12-2015, 08:27 AM
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Here's a few graphs I haven't seen yet...

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post #21872 of 25604 Old 07-12-2015, 08:31 AM
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post #21873 of 25604 Old 07-12-2015, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post
Here's a few graphs I haven't seen yet...

Survivor: Audio: English DTS MA 5.1 @1509 Kbps
Which scene is that 1hz spike?

I'm guessing the 10hz is
Spoiler!
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post #21874 of 25604 Old 07-12-2015, 08:53 AM
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The funny thing is even Maxmercy at data-bass who measured the track labeled Salvation as "demo material" referring to the gas station scene up through the capture which I agree with.

I think it's also important to note that while data-bass is the best bass measuring resource we have, it's certainly not perfect and can't ever tell the full story on any given bass track since you still need to actually watch the film in question to see how the bass that is there interacts with the on screen action. Not to mention data-bass can't account for personal preference since that will be different for everyone as some (like me and Fatshaft) prefer bass fest type tracks while others pefer more finesse or whatever. Data-bass is an excellent resource, but it's certainly not the bible and still needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

The other thing is just because a track rates objectively high does not mean all of us will have the same opinion on it after watching relative to other tracks for reasons mentioned above (personal preference). And while system and room variables can certainly account for a lot of the difference of opinion, that is not always the reason for it as we could squash all the variables and all be sitting in the same room and still all have a different opinion about what bass tracks are good, great and the best. A track like OHF as mentioned before scores high objectively, but the lacking mid bass and poor execution in spots (some of the weapons sound/feel like cap guns ) makes the bass feel incomplete for some of us. Because of all this, there are numerous bass tracks that rate higher overall in my book even if they are objectively graded lower vs OHF. Just one example to illustrate my point.
All of that is marvelously well said. For myself, to say that graphs and measurements are only of the merest passing ex post facto concern to me, probably appears to attribute too much value to them in my outlook. Fact is, I come at this from the standpoint of a fan of film and fan of bass -- all kinds, varieties, flavors, and colors in that bass range, and truth be told, I only ever care about what it sounds like, not what the graph looks like -- mystifies me why it is of any concern whatsoever when it comes to stating an opinion -- best I can speculate, such things help insulate folks from insecurity, bolster their confidence that their opinion will be "right."

Whatever...when this type of quote appears next to "objective" scoring: "Tremendous midbass film, the gas station scene up to the HK capture is demo material," I see the subjective term "tremendous," and the fact that the author refers to a segment as "demo material," which itself incorporates all kinds of variables that reduce to opinion.

And not that I have specific interest, but unless I'm mistaken, something like the scoring system is itself highly subjective -- unless every concievable presentation is codified as representing a certain predetermined point value -- in other words, the set rules might lay out something like: "more than two seconds inclusion of a below 15hz pulse at 110dBs qualifies as a certain scored value," which is averaged against a minute by minute readout of the presentation -- unless you have an infinite number of possibilities accounted for, someone is formulating a subjective score (based on measurements), which itself is relative to standards or norms sitting outside the film being so evaluated.


Level - 5 Stars (113.8dB)
Extension - 3 Stars (17Hz)
Dynamics - 4 Stars (26.4dB)
Execution - 4 Stars

What is indicated by "Execution"? -- please, not that I really care, but how does that get objectively scored? -- again, the question purely rhetorical -- just that it seems like an opinion...whatever.

So anyway, just know that when I share my opinion, it will undoubtedly bear no relationship whatsoever to how the film has measured out, but that is just me -- others will come along with the graphs and charts -- in fact, I got a kick out of FATSHAFT sharing his graphing of MONSTERS DC -- seemed like he was having a blast -- good on ya brother!
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post #21875 of 25604 Old 07-12-2015, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Emaych View Post
All of that is marvelously well said. For myself, to say that graphs and measurements are only of the merest passing ex post facto concern to me, probably appears to attribute too much value to them in my outlook. Fact is, I come at this from the standpoint of a fan of film and fan of bass -- all kinds, varieties, flavors, and colors in that bass range, and truth be told, I only ever care about what it sounds like, not what the graph looks like -- mystifies me why it is of any concern whatsoever when it comes to stating an opinion -- best I can speculate, such things help insulate folks from insecurity, bolster their confidence that their opinion will be "right."

Whatever...when this type of quote appears next to "objective" scoring: "Tremendous midbass film, the gas station scene up to the HK capture is demo material," I see the subjective term "tremendous," and the fact that the author refers to a segment as "demo material," which itself incorporates all kinds of variables that reduce to opinion.

And not that I have specific interest, but unless I'm mistaken, something like the scoring system is itself highly subjective -- unless every concievable presentation is codified as representing a certain predetermined point value -- in other words, the set rules might lay out something like: "more than two seconds inclusion of a below 15hz pulse at 110dBs qualifies as a certain scored value," which is averaged against a minute by minute readout of the presentation -- unless you have an infinite number of possibilities accounted for, someone is formulating a subjective score (based on measurements), which itself is relative to standards or norms sitting outside the film being so evaluated.


Level - 5 Stars (113.8dB)
Extension - 3 Stars (17Hz)
Dynamics - 4 Stars (26.4dB)
Execution - 4 Stars

What is indicated by "Execution"? -- please, not that I really care, but how does that get objectively scored? -- again, the question purely rhetorical -- just that it seems like an opinion...whatever.

So anyway, just know that when I share my opinion, it will undoubtedly bear no relationship whatsoever to how the film has measured out, but that is just me -- others will come along with the graphs and charts -- in fact, I got a kick out of FATSHAFT sharing his graphing of MONSTERS DC -- seemed like he was having a blast -- good on ya brother!
Execution is the ONLY subjective score in that systems. And it allows for those to have their say if they liked it or not no matter how it scored.

It can be 5's accords the measurement scores but if it says clipped or used terribly, you can rate it's lower in execution (by an online poll) and it won't be a true 5 star flick
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post #21876 of 25604 Old 07-12-2015, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
Execution is the ONLY subjective score in that systems. And it allows for those to have their say if they liked it or not no matter how it scored.

It can be 5's accords the measurement scores but if it says clipped or used terribly, you can rate it's lower in execution (by an online poll) and it won't be a true 5 star flick
Well, believe it or not, I actually felt sufficiently inclined to look in on the scoring rules. Can't say I found it riveting to anywhere near the degree that a film track engages me, but answered that curiosity of the moment. Such systems surely have their place, just not anything that tickles my fancy too much...but only speak for myself, of course....



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post #21877 of 25604 Old 07-12-2015, 11:59 AM
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I'm curious, why would a movie that you have to "raise the trim" and "run it hot" qualify as a bass monster?

Elysium 4.5 stars????

If I did all that to Driving Miss Daisy wouldn't I get more bass out of it?
Meanwhile, Interstellar gets 3.5 stars and it's the only movie I know of that wants to blow your house down. But it's not a bass monster???

I like to see the graphs but don't base my enjoyment or decision to watch a movie on them. Imo, there are a lot of great bass movies that don't garner 4-5 stars but are in fact bass monsters
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post #21878 of 25604 Old 07-12-2015, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by wpbpete View Post
I'm curious, why would a movie that you have to "raise the trim" and "run it hot" qualify as a bass monster?

Elysium 4.5 stars????

If I did all that to Driving Miss Daisy wouldn't I get more bass out of it?
Meanwhile, Interstellar gets 3.5 stars and it's the only movie I know of that wants to blow your house down. But it's not a bass monster???

I like to see the graphs but don't base my enjoyment or decision to watch a movie on them. Imo, there are a lot of great bass movies that don't garner 4-5 stars but are in fact bass monsters
Because interstellar is clipped to hell AND only a 30hz movie
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post #21879 of 25604 Old 07-12-2015, 02:36 PM
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Because interstellar is clipped to hell AND only a 30hz movie
I get that and it explains to enthusiast why but a room full of non-enthusiast would most likely choose Interstellar over Elysium as being a bass monster. Why? Because Interstellar moves you in a way that Elysium does not. Which one would you put on for a bunch of your non-enthusiast friends? So is it all about objectively seeking the truth or about subjectively enjoying and feeling the movie?

But, my real question/issue is with Elysium and those movies that we're told to "raise the trim" to enjoy. I watch movies 3db hot, it either brings it at that level or it doesn't, yet this one gets a 4.5 and is recognized as a bass monster.
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People who said Elysium was lacking for bass either have ported subs, terrible response that humps around 30-50Hz in their rooms, or they're deaf. Or they lack a pulse.
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and if its not loud enough or bassy enough, either turn it up or get better subs!

I didn't raise the trim, turn it up or buy new subs, so I don't think it's a bass monster regardless of the 4.5 stars. I'll take subjective on this one please

Edit: I'm just playing devils advocate, based on the 'It says so on DB' theory

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post #21880 of 25604 Old 07-12-2015, 02:58 PM
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With that argument it explains why htib is enough for 90% of consumers.

Let's just make every movie super loud and clipping. And give everyone a cheap sub with 30 hz bloated bass.

If you want to impress with loud 30hz tones. Play skadoosh or darla tap scene at least those are clean.

But to answer your question directly. No I wouldn't choose Elysium. And I wouldn't choose interstellar.

I would choose wotw or tih.

Also I have never said Elysium is a bass monster nor have I read that anywhere only that it does in fact have bass in it. . But I know what your saying

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post #21881 of 25604 Old 07-12-2015, 02:58 PM
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Elysium is another great example (IMO) of a track that is rated high objectively, but does not give great payoff. It needs a level bump and execution is spotty with some of the weapon effects. There is a number of lower rated tracks I would place above Elysium.
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post #21882 of 25604 Old 07-12-2015, 03:35 PM
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But to answer your question directly. No I wouldn't choose Elysium. And I wouldn't choose interstellar.

I would choose wotw or tih.

Also I have never said Elysium is a bass monster nor have I read that anywhere only that it does in fact have bass in it. . But I know what your saying
LoL I always agree with your choices, TIH for me too but I'd also throw on the first minute of Interstellar just to watch their faces

oh, from the same post on DB
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Elysium is a monster, but it doesn't have any loud peaks above 22Hz, and the bass content levels are only average for an action film
I'm curious what you guys think about the whole "raise the trim" to get the bass out of particular movie tho. I don't get that, If normally I listen at 0db, 3db or 10db hot, that's where it gets compared to others! Anything else just skews things...
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post #21883 of 25604 Old 07-12-2015, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by wpbpete View Post
LoL I always agree with your choices, TIH for me too but I'd also throw on the first minute of Interstellar just to watch their faces

oh, from the same post on DB
I'm curious what you guys think about the whole "raise the trim" to get the bass out of particular movie tho. I don't get that, If normally I listen at 0db, 3db or 10db hot, that's where it gets compared to others! Anything else just skews things...
I must have missed that. Good catch

If I have to raise he levels I don't rate it as high. But raising it does bring the enjoyment up
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post #21884 of 25604 Old 07-12-2015, 06:08 PM
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I have no problem raising my trim to get more out of a movie. All I care about is enjoying the movie, I don't care how I get there.

I like having DB around to help categorize movies so we have some sort of litmus test. And I like it when Brian takes the time to cut and paste the info into this thread. But ultimately what I really care about is what I think about the bass in a movie. I care a lot more about my subjective opinion than anything else.

I also enjoy it when we get great back and forth debating bass in a movie (like we had with JA and Interstellar). The friendly debates on movies are fun. And sometimes they make me go back and watch a movie for a 2nd time to see if I missed something that others said was there.
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post #21885 of 25604 Old 07-12-2015, 06:28 PM
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I have no problem raising my trim to get more out of a movie. All I care about is enjoying the movie, I don't care how I get there.

I like having DB around to help categorize movies so we have some sort of litmus test. And I like it when Brian takes the time to cut and paste the info into this thread. But ultimately what I really care about is what I think about the bass in a movie. I care a lot more about my subjective opinion than anything else.
But when you raise the trim on movie A do you then compare it to movie B without raised trim? I find that happens a lot with objective viewpoints and I just don't get why. I too go mostly by subjective views but like to verify what I heard with the graphs
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post #21886 of 25604 Old 07-12-2015, 06:57 PM
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But when you raise the trim on movie A do you then compare it to movie B without raised trim? I find that happens a lot with objective viewpoints and I just don't get why. I too go mostly by subjective views but like to verify what I heard with the graphs
Good question. No I don't think I do. If I raise the trim to make the bass stand out more I usually note that I did.

I don't really get caught up in comparing that much. I usually focus on an individual movie and whether I liked it or not.
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So the kids insisted to watch The Incredible and it turned out to be an excellent choice as the bass is just incredible. The movie is excellent too. Don't know how I missed this movie back then.
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post #21888 of 25604 Old 07-12-2015, 11:20 PM
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So the kids insisted to watch The Incredibles and it turned out to be an excellent choice as the bass is just incredible. The movie is excellent too. Don't know how I missed this movie back then.
Number 2 is coming too, sometimes.

* Great bass in that great PIXAR animation flick, and I bet that it would sound great too with Dolby Surround up-mixer.
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post #21889 of 25604 Old 07-13-2015, 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by wpbpete View Post
I'm curious, why would a movie that you have to "raise the trim" and "run it hot" qualify as a bass monster?

Elysium 4.5 stars????

If I did all that to Driving Miss Daisy wouldn't I get more bass out of it?
Meanwhile, Interstellar gets 3.5 stars and it's the only movie I know of that wants to blow your house down. But it's not a bass monster???

I like to see the graphs but don't base my enjoyment or decision to watch a movie on them. Imo, there are a lot of great bass movies that don't garner 4-5 stars but are in fact bass monsters
True... For those with some sort of external DSP that they can conveniently adjust on the fly, almost movie can be a bass adventure. =)

IIRC, Elysium is a bass monster because it isn't neutered in the low end. Those people with systems capable of producing an "abundance" of sub-20Hz bass get a real kick out of it!
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post #21890 of 25604 Old 07-13-2015, 03:02 AM
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watched "admiral: roaring currants" last nite...

nice film...GREAT soundtrack

some nice bass moments...a coupla corny scenes, but taken as a whole, a good watch.

make sure to watch the subtitled version...

at the zenith of his nadir...
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post #21891 of 25604 Old 07-13-2015, 06:28 AM
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Watched Maggie last night and it had some really nice bass in it. The movie is not that long and was pretty good too. I say put it on your list of movies to watch.

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post #21892 of 25604 Old 07-13-2015, 06:30 AM
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Watched Maggie last night and it had some really nice bass in it. The movie is not that long and was pretty good too. I say put it on your list of movies to watch.
Trying to find it in redbox. But can't as of yet. Looking forward to spinning it
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post #21893 of 25604 Old 07-13-2015, 06:32 AM
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Trying to find it in redbox. But can't as of yet. Looking forward to spinning it
That is where I got it from. Must have been all checked out.

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post #21894 of 25604 Old 07-13-2015, 12:08 PM
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The last few pages are just the latest iteration of a debate that has gone on forever, one round of which was the catalyst for starting d-b.com in the first place. Comments on how AWESOME the bass was in this movie or that (Avengers was a big topic), when the measurements showed little extension, but simply loud bass. I've always argued for the importance of both subjective and objective views. That said, some of this stuff isn't a close call objectively. Interstellar is a 30Hz movie with loads of clipping, period. OHF and Elysium are full bandwidth movies that don't have clipping. One may not like the specific design choices used in one or the other, but the data doesn't lie.

None of this negates one's personal enjoyment of a movie, but numbers that are verifiable and repeatable have to mean something, or any movie with loud, droning bass will qualify as AWESOME or a MONSTER. Not that anyone cares, but I rate Terminator as a good, not great bass movie. When you have a system that can recreate the full bandwidth of a track, you'll clearly know the difference. That (system capability) is usually the single biggest factor in the difference of opinion. I had someone compare the beach landing scene from EOT vs the Helicopter ride scene from B:LA. They thought EOT was better. I was not surprised to find out their system was tuned to 17Hz, which means they missed out on all the deepest content that B:LA had over EOT.

But, I'm sure in 2 years, 5 years, we'll still be having these exact same conversations.
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post #21895 of 25604 Old 07-13-2015, 12:10 PM
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Chappie:
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Thanks for this. Was really looking to see how this measured.
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post #21896 of 25604 Old 07-13-2015, 04:11 PM
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So the kids insisted to watch The Incredible and it turned out to be an excellent choice as the bass is just incredible. The movie is excellent too. Don't know how I missed this movie back then.
i love this movie too, and i always loved the clean crisp bass that went along with it. i've wanted it on blu for ever, yet the stupid thing never goes below $30! i'm sorry...i just refuse to pay that much for a blu.


on a side note, i re-spun JA last night and bumped up the volume a bit. it's still a very good bass movie, but i just don't think it's overthrown TIH. very, very good, but not KOB.
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post #21897 of 25604 Old 07-13-2015, 04:37 PM
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i love this movie too, and i always loved the clean crisp bass that went along with it. i've wanted it on blu for ever, yet the stupid thing never goes below $30! i'm sorry...i just refuse to pay that much for a blu.


on a side note, i re-spun JA last night and bumped up the volume a bit. it's still a very good bass movie, but i just don't think it's overthrown TIH. very, very good, but not KOB.
Coincidentally, we just watched Incredibles this weekend and I found myself writing down time stamps for future demo material. Good movie for bass and the surrounds. Lots of actions on the surrounds toward the end when the flying discs are chasing Dash & Violet around the jungle.
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post #21898 of 25604 Old 07-13-2015, 04:51 PM
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Here's The Incredibles: DTS 5.1

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My Build Thread
Equipment Speakers:
3x 1099's for LCR duty
4x Fusion 8's for surround duty
8x subs: 4x FTW21's and 4x SI18's
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post #21899 of 25604 Old 07-13-2015, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by wth718 View Post
The last few pages are just the latest iteration of a debate that has gone on forever, one round of which was the catalyst for starting d-b.com in the first place. Comments on how AWESOME the bass was in this movie or that (Avengers was a big topic), when the measurements showed little extension, but simply loud bass. I've always argued for the importance of both subjective and objective views. That said, some of this stuff isn't a close call objectively. Interstellar is a 30Hz movie with loads of clipping, period. OHF and Elysium are full bandwidth movies that don't have clipping. One may not like the specific design choices used in one or the other, but the data doesn't lie.

None of this negates one's personal enjoyment of a movie, but numbers that are verifiable and repeatable have to mean something, or any movie with loud, droning bass will qualify as AWESOME or a MONSTER. Not that anyone cares, but I rate Terminator as a good, not great bass movie. When you have a system that can recreate the full bandwidth of a track, you'll clearly know the difference. That (system capability) is usually the single biggest factor in the difference of opinion. I had someone compare the beach landing scene from EOT vs the Helicopter ride scene from B:LA. They thought EOT was better. I was not surprised to find out their system was tuned to 17Hz, which means they missed out on all the deepest content that B:LA had over EOT.

But, I'm sure in 2 years, 5 years, we'll still be having these exact same conversations.
I generally agree with you, but I am glad you put that usually in there as I think that is very important.

Again as far as OHF is concerned, even though it is technically full bandwidth, the mid bass is relatively low level compared to that bump down low which gives the bass an incomplete quality to some degree in the opinion of some (including me), and I don't feel this is simply due to system/extension variables. I thought the Wash Monument scene was fantastic and the bass supported the on screen action well, but in general it just feels a bit lacking for the reasons mentioned. I know you don't agree which is fine of course.


As far as the B:LA vs EoT comparison, B:LA all the way on that one for me.
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post #21900 of 25604 Old 07-13-2015, 05:56 PM
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I generally agree with you, but I am glad you put that usually in there as I think that is very important.

Again as far as OHF is concerned, even though it is technically full bandwidth, the mid bass is relatively low level compared to that bump down low which gives the bass an incomplete quality to some degree in the opinion of some (including me), and I don't feel this is simply due to system/extension variables. I thought the Wash Monument scene was fantastic and the bass supported the on screen action well, but in general it just feels a bit lacking for the reasons mentioned. I know you don't agree which is fine of course.


As far as the B:LA vs EoT comparison, B:LA all the way on that one for me.
Toe you can be the voice of reason at times (mostly)

Great post
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