2011 Kansas City Subwoofer Meet Results - Page 11 - AVS Forum
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post #301 of 553 Old 05-19-2011, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Different drivers in different enclosure designs and sizes will sound different. Differences in ground plane frequency response will be heard and that is one of many significant factors, but even when the ground plane response is rather close, we will hear some differences. Some will be very minor, some will be quite dramatic. Distortion characteristics will differ in both relative mix of different harmonic distortions as well as in the onset vs. increasing level vs. frequency. Intertwined with the causes of such distortion are variables which will dynamically affect the response of the subwoofer to make it compress or even expand at different frequencies. Differences between designs are great enough that all subs won't sound the same and some will sound very different in spite of similar ground plane frequency responses. Yes, such differences will be less significant at lower levels and more so at higher levels dependent on the mechanism.

^^This^^

And, you can play those differences into the design of the sub, once you've identified them and classified them.

Bosso
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post #302 of 553 Old 05-19-2011, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Different drivers in different enclosure designs and sizes will sound different. Differences in ground plane frequency response will be heard and that is one of many significant factors, but even when the ground plane response is rather close, we will hear some differences. Some will be very minor, some will be quite dramatic. Distortion characteristics will differ in both relative mix of different harmonic distortions as well as in the onset vs. increasing level vs. frequency. Intertwined with the causes of such distortion are variables which will dynamically affect the response of the subwoofer to make it compress or even expand at different frequencies. Differences between designs are great enough that all subs won't sound the same and some will sound very different in spite of similar ground plane frequency responses. Yes, such differences will be less significant at lower levels and more so at higher levels dependent on the mechanism.

Totally agree...

Everyone yelled me out of the epik thread for talking about the sonic signature of the dynasty. Everyone yelled at me saying subs all sounded the same but I definitely heard differences in it's voicing.
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post #303 of 553 Old 05-19-2011, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post


Several points:

notnyt's boxes are with 1 cube of the Caps box.

99.9999999% aren't interested in a system like not's, but 99.999999% are interested in a SM or a Cap? If so, let Jeff and Mark know ASAP.

I'm pretty much always in my right mind and have 3-120 Hz response, so maybe you're referring to a different no one.

It's not a matter of 2kw vs 4kw. That passive is -7dB at 20 Hz vs the powered. That's a factor of 5 times because from 30-80 Hz, where the AVRs calibration pink noise tone is, both subs are equal.

Sure, the EQ can be duplicated (but, not by 99.999999% of the population), but it wasn't there to be applied at the G2G, so I think you've missed my point altogether.

I'm not being flip. If a SubMersive, get the HP version. If the Cap, get the powered version. 'Most people' is an irrelevant argument. Most people, although I appreciate that you're apparently their spokesperson, will never have heard of, nor are they interested in buying either sub, much less consider the $500-1,000 options being discussed here.

Bosso

Who's missing whom's points?

notnyt's boxes are comparable to a cap. Right. The gorilla in the room of course is that there are four (?) of them at a cost of what, $2500 apiece without the amplification? Apples to apples, right?

I never said or remotely implied what you'e stating, not even close, actually. What I said was that it's ALL about compromise in the VAST majority of scenarios. Understanding this and assuming others are in their "right mind", none of them would expect 3-120hz performance. Just as I stated.

I won't bother getting into a pissing match over how imperative it is to double the cost of the Cap by including an amp that's eq'd. We know you know more than I and I'm sure I'd rather put my hand in a blender to begin with.

Still, Jeff makes the subwoofer in two variations for good reason and I suppose he respects his customers enough to allow them to make performance vs. cost decisions for themselves...imagine that.

Your futile attempt to extrapolate my 99.998% figure regarding compromise into something else like leveraging it against a serious hobbyist eq'ing their sub is baseless and a complete disconnect.

"most people". Again. The argument for which I've made abundantly clear (compromise) is completely and utterly relevant and I of course never neither stated nor alluded that "most" of any discipline would own anything in the discussion here. Another disconnect.

I'd love to side by side the powered and competently powered passive cap and witness the results. As I've already stated, their are numerous owners who seem to be beyond satisfied with their passive model, but of course an immediate context against the powered version would prove to be very useful for obvious reasons. I for one would welcome the comparo...I am fortunate to have both the space and time to do so.

If facing the fact that many (really the overwhelming majority of) enthusiasts will never even approach the levels of "bass-dom" of which you've espoused, but may be content with a few upgrades over the years bothers you so, I would suggest avoiding threads like this where words and phrases like "value", "dollar for dollar", "bang-for-the-buck" and other "compromising" terminology are (rightfully) used by those ignorant enough to believe they can be happy without (4) cabinets and $15,000 invested in bass reproduction.

I'm not usually in the business of reacting like this, but I suppose I just take offense to the implication that making decisions based upon factors you deem relevant in your own life- be them marital, monetary, or otherwise- is shortsighted.

I find nothing wrong with (can we agree here) a bit extreme scenarios like yours or noytn's, why prod at ours?

I don't want to wreck this thread so I'll just shut up and move on now.

James

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post #304 of 553 Old 05-19-2011, 06:32 PM
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i'm just curious where you're getting this notion that the powered cap isn't putting out a true 4000 watts

jeff the owner of JTR was there. maybe he can put this rumor"?" to rest ?

if the powered version is putting out a true 4000 watts, there's no more guess work, we don't have to say 1-3db, we can say by science if it's 1db 2db or 3db (3db being 1/2 a subwoofer by the way)

i'm also wondering what the outcome would have been if mark seaton was at the meet to tweak the submersive HP

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post #305 of 553 Old 05-19-2011, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stgdz View Post

Well that is a pretty subjective opinion, as someone else pointed out you would need a lot of empires to even keep up with the submersive in the ULF range. The subM is close to 18-20db more efficient than the empire at 10-15hz, you would need 6 empires to equal one subM for ULF.

Agreed. There are many characters that make up a great sub. ULF is one of them.

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For the no compromise people out there, the SubM is the way to go.

Out of all the subs I have heard to date, which I have auditioned dozens in the last 5 years, the SubM is the best I have encountered. Therefore I would have to agree.

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Also even though the sweeps were low dB, can we get some distortion measurements posted. I believe its pretty easy since the sweeps were allready performed with rew and its just reloading the results and a couple of clicks in rew. I could be wrong though.

Great. I attached the raw REW measurements to the first page. Hopefully someone will take the time to do this.

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post #306 of 553 Old 05-19-2011, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by otk View Post

the sub M keeps going into single digits. of course you could EQ the empire down low but does it have the drivers and power to handle it ?

Agreed.

How long can a single SubM continue to push out those SPLs in those single digits? And if it did, how would it sound? I heard some pretty crappy noises coming from the SubM on the WOTW pod emerging scene when it was pushed.

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post #307 of 553 Old 05-19-2011, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by otk View Post

i'm just curious where you're getting this notion that the powered cap isn't putting out a true 4000 watts

jeff the owner of JTR was there. maybe he can put this rumor"?" to rest ?

if the powered version is putting out a true 4000 watts, there's no more guess work, we don't have to say 1-3db, we can say by science if it's 1db 2db or 3db (3db being 1/2 a subwoofer by the way)

i'm also wondering what the outcome would have been if mark seaton was at the meet to tweak the submersive HP

I'm asking simply based upon the reality that a staggering number (really, the vast majority) of amplifiers do not even remotely meet their specs (see amp test thread in the diy section for ready reference). It's nothing personal against Jeff at all.

Good point on the Submersive, although I thought they're pretty dialed in from the start. (?) Remember the built-in eq'ing that is so essential? Jk!

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #308 of 553 Old 05-19-2011, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

That "fellow AVS'r" was michman. The way I read his comparison, I don't think the Empires "bested the Submersive in pretty much all respects." I interpreted his results as the dual Empires were about as good as a single Submersive... for less money... in michman's opinion. There were also LOTS of questions about his methodology:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hlight=michman

And, BTW, that "fellow AVS'r" hasn't been heard from since he did his comparo. That makes me a little suspicious.

There is enough speculation going on around here that I don't feel compelled to add to it. I would rather talk about my own experiences as I can vouch for them.

Quote:


However, no matter what michman found, your own measurements of the Empire and the Submersive show the clear difference between them:

The Empires start rolling off at just above 20 Hz, and they have a roll off pattern that is atypical for a sealed subwoofer. A typical sealed sub rolls off at 12 dB/octave. The Empire, in your measurements, rolls off at well over 24 dB/octave, (it's down 25 dB at 15 Hz and is off the bottom of the chart before 10 Hz.) This leads me to believe they have a infrasonic filter to protect the driver/amp.

You can add as many Empires as you like and you won't get a different low frequency extension. You'll get more output at the lower frequencies, but you won't be able to use it unless you use some boost below the -3 dB point. If Epik uses an infrasonic filter to protect the driver/amp, it's probably not a good idea to use boost on it. OTOH, the Seaton has the boost built in with it's 2 different DSP programs... AND it has the amplifier power and the driver excursion/durability to utilize it.

I'm sure the Empire has "outstanding midbass performance", (as stated on the Epic website), and it seems like a great value at it's pricepoint. However, it's not a bottom-dweller, and adding more doesn't change that.

In the interest of full disclosure, I own 3 Seaton Submersive HP's.

Craig

Edit: otk beat me to it.

Agreed. Not only did the Seaton exhibit great midbass, it also gave us a great dose of ULF which no other sub in the shootout possessed.

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post #309 of 553 Old 05-19-2011, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

Agreed.

How long can a single SubM continue to push out those SPLs in those single digits? And if it did, how would it sound? I heard some pretty crappy noises coming from the SubM on the WOTW pod emerging scene when it was pushed.

you just said it was the best sub you ever encountered in your last post. obviously that's a good starting point. from there if you need more clean output due to larger room or taste, you just add more submersives

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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

I'm asking simply based upon the reality that a staggering number (really, the vast majority) of amplifiers do not even remotely meet their specs (see amp test thread in the diy section for ready reference). It's nothing personal against Jeff at all.

the same could be said about that $300 amp

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post #310 of 553 Old 05-19-2011, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Hudda View Post

As I recall, michman was overdriving the input stage of the old amp which he erroneously concluded as an inherent clipping problem with the SubM. This potential problem has been virtually eliminated with the new amp and dsp.

A phone consultation with Mark would have easily solved the problem but he wasn't too chatty given the fact he would not reveal his real name or identity to Mark. Whoever michman was, he sent a friend to pick up the SubM in person.

Chris

Can we just stick to the facts? This all seems like speculation to me.

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post #311 of 553 Old 05-19-2011, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by otk View Post


you just said it was the best sub you ever encountered in your last post. obviously that's a good starting point. from there if you need more clean output due to larger room or taste, you just add more submersives

the same could be said about that $300 amp

That amp has been tested and verified make an abundance of power though...but you're right lol, it's beneath its ridiculous specs too. The $300 vs $1500 is the question. People can make their own determination if $400 per db is worthwhile to them. That's all I've maintained, really.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #312 of 553 Old 05-19-2011, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by otk View Post

from there if you need more clean output due to larger room or taste, you just add more submersives

I understand, but those are very expensive subs. Well over $2000 each.

I paid $3200 (shipped, no tax) for quad Empires. They have never made a bad sound (which to me is just as important as ULF ) no matter what I have thrown at them. They are flat to 15Hz in my room. Why do need to extend to 3Hz to be considered good subs or even a good deal for that matter?

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post #313 of 553 Old 05-19-2011, 06:57 PM
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I for one really appreciate all the comments today. I think it is nice to have the knowledgeable stand up and contribute in current threads. It so hard to dig through threads and find old comments. It's nice to have continual input on topics that I am sure you guys have covered before.

I truly think everyone in this thread has helped me personally.

Counsil, your Submersive comment seems to go a long way, thanks.

Bossobass, are the types of subs you talk about available for purchase or are you talking about diy only, for the 3-120hz stuff?

KC guys, great thread. I really think having numerous active contributors here from the g2g really puts this thread over the top. Thanks.
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post #314 of 553 Old 05-19-2011, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by counsil View Post


I understand, but those are very expensive subs. Well over $2000 each.

I paid $3200 (shipped, no tax) for quad Empires. They have never made a bad sound (which to me is just as important as ULF ) no matter what thrown at them. They are flat to 15Hz in my room. Why do need to extend to 3Hz to be considered good subs or even a good deal for that matter?

You don't (need to extend to 3hz), and this is why I got bent out of shape. People have their own priorities and inevitably, limitations and act accordingly. I'm not accusing anyone in particular (and I'm really not) but some just seem to be unsettled by that fact.

I for one would be willing to bet the low end response in your room is fantastic even though it may never see a healthy 13, never mind 3hz.

I think sometimes we can all be a bit more prickly than we realize.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

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post #315 of 553 Old 05-19-2011, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otk View Post

you just said it was the best sub you ever encountered in your last post. obviously that's a good starting point. from there if you need more clean output due to larger room or taste, you just add more submersives



the same could be said about that $300 amp

Well, that what he is saying. Every amp in the testing thread never hit there specs so Mastermaybe is saying maybe the 4000 watt figure would not be 4000 watts. If it did use 4000 watts during the GTG then I would think it would be hitting much higher spl's. Maybe in a null? I did not see it at 20hz so it should have hit around 120 db's during WOTW but it did not. Was the meter set correctly? Maybe the battery was going bad?
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post #316 of 553 Old 05-19-2011, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post


Well, that what he is saying. Every amp in the testing thread never hit there specs so Mastermaybe is saying maybe the 4000 watt figure would not be 4000 watts. If it did use 4000 watts during the GTG then I would think it would be hitting much higher spl's. Maybe in a null? I did not see it at 20hz so it should have hit around 120 db's during WOTW but it did not. Was the meter set correctly? Maybe the battery was going bad?

Thanks mk, that's pretty much it. I was gonna bring up the SPL "thing" but it's been battered to near death in this thread and I didn't want to get the feathers ruffled all over again. Honest question though, IMO.

James

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post #317 of 553 Old 05-19-2011, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Was the meter set correctly? Maybe the battery was going bad?

Finally a question that I am answer definitively! I used a brand new calibrated Galaxy CM-140 from Cross Spectrum Labs. I had just put in a brand new battery the day before the meet. I also took the liberty of using it in my own room just to make sure it was working properly.

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post #318 of 553 Old 05-19-2011, 07:14 PM
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I should have just added 10 dBs to all the readings. That would have made a lot of folks happy. Not only at the GTG, but here in the forums.

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post #319 of 553 Old 05-19-2011, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by counsil View Post


Finally a question that I am answer definitively! I used a brand new calibrated Galaxy CM-140 from Cross Spectrum Labs. I had just put in a brand new battery the day before the meet. I also took the liberty of using it in my own room just to make sure it was working properly.

Well that answers that. Now the question is: where's the 12-15dbs we should prolly expect out of this sub (verified by others as a matter of fact) in a room this size with 4,000 watts behind it?

My understanding was the Cap was pushed pretty far, particularly in the WOTW sequences.

Again, I think this is a fair question.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #320 of 553 Old 05-19-2011, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by counsil View Post

I should have just added 10 dBs to all the readings. That would have made a lot of folks happy. Not only at the GTG, but here in the forums.

Funny, but I understand. I've read everything from poor placement to flexing walls. I suppose it could add up to 12-15 dbs.

Again, I've taken more away from the subjective elements than anything else, so I'm happy.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

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post #321 of 553 Old 05-19-2011, 07:19 PM
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Actually, I can add some dBs to my readings. This is from my calibration report for my Galaxy CM-140...

Freq. Resp. (dB)
5 -25.83
6.3 -21.53
8 -18.55
10 -15.52
12.5 -12.28
16 -9.40
20 -7.13
25 -5.46
31.5 -4.24
40 -3.29
50 -2.49
63 -1.87
80 -1.47
100 -0.96
125 -0.61
160 -0.31
200 -0.29
250 -0.31
315 -0.20
400 -0.17
500 -0.11
630 -0.09
800 -0.05
1000 0.00
1250 0.02
1600 -0.19
2000 -0.04
2500 0.59
3150 1.30
4000 1.43
5000 2.07
6300 2.49
8000 2.30
10000 -0.13
12500 -4.20
16000 -9.10
20000 -13.17
25000 -17.73

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post #322 of 553 Old 05-19-2011, 07:22 PM
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Well there u go, counsil... Those are rather substantial from 30 on down.

Nice one. Now we'll all be "happier", lmao.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

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post #323 of 553 Old 05-19-2011, 07:23 PM
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That came from my C-weighted calibration report. The meter was calibrated at a respectable SPL of 114dB.

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post #324 of 553 Old 05-19-2011, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Nice one. Now we'll all be "happier", lmao.

Absolutely... my Epiks just all of a sudden played 25+ dB louder at 5Hz.

Never argue with an idiot; they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.


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post #325 of 553 Old 05-19-2011, 07:40 PM
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lol

My first DIY project. A dual, dual opposed setup


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post #326 of 553 Old 05-19-2011, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by otk View Post




the same could be said about that $300 amp


There are a whole lot of things we can say about that $300 amp. It is probably the most vetted amp I've ever heard of. We know from independent tests how much power it puts into 2, 4, and 8 ohms in stereo and bridged modes from normal home circuits. We know it holds up strong enough into the infrasonics to make it good for subwoofer use. We know that it is the inexpensive darling of the DIY community because of it's high power/cost ratio and that we don't really hear very much about them failing in home use. We know they have a noisy fan and we know the solution for that problem. I can't think of any other amp, especially any plate amp that we can bet on for a specified delivered performance.

Personally, I'm a bit skeptical about all plate amps. Who ever actually takes them out of their enclosures and bench tests them? We almost always have to simply count on the sub's makers' output claims.

With that $300 amp, I know what I'm getting and what it will do under almost all conditions.
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post #327 of 553 Old 05-19-2011, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by counsil View Post

Absolutely... my Epiks just all of a sudden played 25+ dB louder at 5Hz.

They sound better now even from here.
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post #328 of 553 Old 05-19-2011, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by counsil View Post

Actually, I can add some dBs to my readings. This is from my calibration report for my Galaxy CM-140...

Freq. Resp. (dB)
*snip*

You're kidding, right? You did actually use the FRD calibration file for your Galaxy's measurements at the G2G, didn't you?


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post #329 of 553 Old 05-19-2011, 07:52 PM
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You're kidding, right? You did actually use the FRD calibration file for your Galaxy's measurements at the G2G, didn't you?

Thing is that it doesn't really matter. The same lack of calibration would apply to all the subs equally.
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post #330 of 553 Old 05-19-2011, 07:52 PM
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Oh boy, let's all be friends here. Nothing is lost.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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