2011 Kansas City Subwoofer Meet Results - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 553 Old 05-20-2011, 10:00 PM
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Lol, i hear ya...hell, at this point just call it an even 8,000 for another 3dbs. But let's not forget about other amplifers "dynamic/peak" power...it's not all gravy on the plate, so to speak.

I for one cannot wait for this amp to be benched...you know someone will eventually.

If it meets its specs, is there another plate on earth commercially avail that comes close?

What is that, damn near 35 amps, lmao?!!

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post #362 of 553 Old 05-20-2011, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudda View Post

Is this a case where the 7200 watt burst capability of the plate amp comes into play? Typical content, as opposed to a continuous 20 Hz sine wave, won't demand high continuous draw, no?

Chris

Maybe, but I'm not much of a fan of burst power, peak power, short-term power, or any other of those theoretical instantaneous power capabilities attributable to various amps. Let's say that 7200 watts is available for a fraction of a second. Can the single Captivator driver actually even do something useful with all that power?

This brings yet another question to mind: What kind of "burst power" or whatever is the Behringer capable of?
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post #363 of 553 Old 05-20-2011, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Lol, i hear ya...hell, at this point just call it an even 8,000 for another 3dbs. But let's not forget about other amplifers "dynamic/peak" power...it's not all gravy on the plate, so to speak.

I for one cannot wait for this amp to be benched...you know someone will eventually.

If it meets its specs, is there another plate on earth commercially avail that comes close?

What is that, damn near 35 amps, lmao?!!

James

Agreed. FWIW, JP's plate amp is identical to Seaton's except for the power rating. 4K vs. 2.4K. Same manufacturer, which leads me to believe these particular plate amps are pretty well vetted.

The question of required amperage has come up repeatedly on Seaton's forum. Mark's made it clear that while it's always better to err on the side of caution, you can run more than 1 SubM on a single 15A breaker. If you push them VERY hard you might trip a breaker but it's unusual.

Chris
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post #364 of 553 Old 05-20-2011, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Maybe, but I'm not much of a fan of burst power, peak power, short-term power, or any other of those theoretical instantaneous power capabilities attributable to various amps. Let's say that 7200 watts is available for a fraction of a second. Can the single Captivator driver actually even do something useful with all that power?

This brings yet another question to mind: What kind of "burst power" or whatever is the Behringer capable of?

Good point. I'm pretty sure the transitory peaks are covered with burst power but how long a period I don't know. Maybe Jeff could answer.

Chris
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post #365 of 553 Old 05-20-2011, 10:54 PM
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Actually Mark Seaton had addressed some of your all's topics in the Captivator thread a while back. (maybe 3 months ago)

This thread is going off topic too early.
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post #366 of 553 Old 05-21-2011, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Let me take another stab at this math thing. Be sure to correct me if I'm wrong since math is not my strong suit.

One passive Captivator with 1336 watts of power will produce "x" db.
For "x+3db" we need 2672 watts.
For the output of two passive Captivators, we need x+6db. To produce "x+6db" we would need 5344 watts into one powered Captivator. With 4000 watts output, we come up 1344 watts short. That's only the straight math and does not even take into account the effects of dynamic compression as we push 2000, 3000, 4000 watts into one driver.

Yes, your watts arithmetic is correct. Approximately 1.2dB difference, but then I covered that above. Then again, you should also apply the same scrutiny to your +6dB theoretical increase from 2 subs. The conventional wisdom that double the cone area + double the power = +6dB doesn't explain the phenomenon. To get +6dB, precise phase coherence across the band is essential and, in this case, not likely.

If you go to any dBSPL calculator and add 121dB (1 subs output) and 121dB (a 2nd subs identical output) the result will be 124dB, not 127dB. When locating the 2 subs separately, the result is going to be somewhere in between +3dB and +6dB.

JP posted compression sweep graphs, but only of the 15 Hz tune, IIRC. The compression was all port compression and you're getting desperate here. I guess you could make any argument based on a generalization if you don't have to post data to back it.

Now, just for fun, what's the math on a single passive Cap driven by the EP4k vs the specifications JTR has posted on its Cap page?

I ask because it's starting to appear that Cap fans here are arguing that there is no significant difference. I find that very interesting and wouldn't mind hearing the logic. Are you saying the passive version with the EP4k would have shown no notable difference at the G2G?

Could it be that the SM bested the Cap because the published Cap specs (which are of the powered version) are, let's say, a bit exaggerated? Come to think of it, that compression graph sure was stretched on the horizontal scale.

Bosso
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post #367 of 553 Old 05-21-2011, 06:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Could it be that the SM bested the Cap because the published Cap specs (which are of the powered version) are, let's say, a bit exaggerated? Come to think of it, that compression graph sure was stretched on the horizontal scale.

Bosso

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Originally Posted by Jeff_Permanian View Post

A few things. The driver was originally designed for JTR's 4000 watt plate amplifier, JTR has a 4000 watt plate amplifier and to perform extremely well for the CEA 2010 method of subwoofer testing. With tuning at 20hz and the amplifier's 7200 watts burst capability the Captivator should be in the 130db's at 20hz per CEA 2010 test methods.

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post #368 of 553 Old 05-21-2011, 06:58 AM
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the dynamic/peak power comes from the capacitors, right?
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post #369 of 553 Old 05-21-2011, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post


Now, just for fun, what's the math on a single passive Cap driven by the EP4k vs the specifications JTR has posted on its Cap page?

Sometimes I like doing things just for fun, so I'll play.
We have "91db at 20hz (100db at 60hz)" I believe that's @1m.
1000 watts = 121db @ 20hz. Another 336 watts? Approx 1 more db. Total 122db @ 1m distance.

Jeff claims 127db @ 20hz. We have an estimated 5db difference between the powered Cap and the Cap/Behringer combo. What would be your point?


Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I ask because it's starting to appear that Cap fans here are arguing that there is no significant difference. I find that very interesting and wouldn't mind hearing the logic. Are you saying the passive version with the EP4k would have shown no notable difference at the G2G?

Who said that and where? Why would anyone claim that there is no difference between a sub with 4000watts and one with 1336 watts?


Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Could it be that the SM bested the Cap because the published Cap specs (which are of the powered version) are, let's say, a bit exaggerated? Come to think of it, that compression graph sure was stretched on the horizontal scale.

Bosso

There are several possible explanations.

Exaggerated claims might be one of them. Which claims are we talking about? The Captivator amp? The The Cap driver /box combo? It could be any or all of the above.

Another possibilty is that the Cap driver was not up to spec. Jeff did send all the drivers in that batch back to the maufacturer for modification.
"I was on the phone with my driver manufacturer talking about the little bit driver rocking that occured at the shootout and what we can do to make it better. We came up with a plan. He built, tested and overnighted drivers to me. They arrived this morning. I've been testing and I haven't been able to get the driver to rock at all. I hate delaying subwoofer delivery but I want the subwoofers to be the best they can be. The modified drivers will be here early next week." - Jeff

Another possible explanation was possible setup/location problems. I wasn't so there I don't know.

This is yet another example of why we need more third-party independent and reproduceable testing of this sub and as many subs out there as possible. Until then, all of this sort of stuff is just mental exercise and is just for fun.
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post #370 of 553 Old 05-21-2011, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Who said that and where? Why would anyone claim that there is no difference between a sub with 4000watts and one with 1336 watts?

i believe the whole thing starts here

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post20459041

then i questioned how he came up with that figure for the cost of the cap

mm didn't say "no" difference but he was saying the difference would not be that significant, saying only 1-3db and using guess work on the output of the powered cap to back up his points

then from there it spiraled out of control

IMO, in the "subwoofer world", i think 3db is a lot. it's 1/2 a sub if you're adding a 2nd sub and if you're adding a 3rd sub, 3db is a whole subwoofer and that's under perfect stacking conditions

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post #371 of 553 Old 05-21-2011, 09:52 AM
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I think it's fortunate for all potential Captivator buyers that Jeff offers several different variations from the self-contained 4000 watt powered one, to the 1000 watt "Lite" one, to the passive, add-your-own amp/eq version. For me, the passive one was right up my alley since I already had an amp and eq to use.
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post #372 of 553 Old 05-21-2011, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

I think it's fortunate for all potential Captivator buyers that Jeff offers several different variations from the self-contained 4000 watt powered one, to the 1000 watt "Lite" one, to the passive, add-your-own amp/eq version. For me, the passive one was right up my alley since I already had an amp and eq to use.

it's a great option

perhaps mark will offer a passive sub-M one day

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post #373 of 553 Old 05-21-2011, 10:09 AM
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My only critique toward Jeff is that in my opinion, he should continue to offer the native tuned 15hz version. I personally wouldn't have bouught the first one off the line the way I did if it hadn't been native tuned to 15hz. I just feel it makes it a better product for HT. Perhaps the current model using a port plug works just as well, but I'm skeptical about the limited porting in that configuration.
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post #374 of 553 Old 05-21-2011, 11:04 AM
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Well, I guess we'll find out. I left Jeff a voicemail a couple days ago about purchasing a passive Cap.
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post #375 of 553 Old 05-21-2011, 11:29 AM
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God all this fighting is nuts...

As long as the damn thing beats the old Epik Dynasty I had in SQ and the PB13 in output I am happy.

Going to add some light bracing cause the 2010 cabinet has no bracing once you take out the center baffle the woofer was in, maybe make a pathetic attempt at veneering it (since trying to paint it is getting too much dust) and just stop reading this crap and enjoy the sub!
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post #376 of 553 Old 05-21-2011, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post

Well, I guess we'll find out. I left Jeff a voicemail a couple days ago about purchasing a passive Cap.

I'd see if he would sell the 1000w version as a passive... I am sure the price/return on that would be insane for most rooms.
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post #377 of 553 Old 05-21-2011, 11:33 AM
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From the specs on his site it seems the powered 1000w version has a different driver and thinner walls in its construction.
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post #378 of 553 Old 05-21-2011, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

The Final Music Ranking is now posted. It took me a long time to tabulate, because the scores are on a bunch of paper sheets and I tripple checked everything before I posted it to make sure I got it exactly right.

FINAL MUSIC RANKING:
The collective individual scores recorded and averaged during our testing revealed the subs ranked into the following order for finest overall music reproduction ability:
1. Seaton Submersive
2. JTR Captivator
3. HSU VTF-15H
4. Epik Empire
5. SVS PB-12+
6. Yamaha CW218V
7. Jamo D7sub
8. Jenson MS500

You can find all the original individual scores in the first page, and see what the individual strengths and weaknesses were for each sub. In some cases a sub might have a high or low overall rating, but have a noticable strength or weakness.

Can anyone speculate where the CHT 18 would fit in? If I remember correctly it was ahead of the HSU in terms of musicality. I seriousl doubt that it could compete w/ the Submersive, but of course I have 6 18is for less than the price of 2 Submersives.
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post #379 of 553 Old 05-21-2011, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr_jitsu View Post

Can anyone speculate where the CHT 18 would fit in? If I remember correctly it was ahead of the HSU in terms of musicality. I seriousl doubt that it could compete w/ the Submersive, but of course I have 6 18is for less than the price of 2 Submersives.

oh, no good is going to come of this


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post #380 of 553 Old 05-21-2011, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by otk View Post

oh no good is going to come from this



LOL...and I am certainly in no mood to ride Craig's nuts, nowadays, trust me on that one.
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post #381 of 553 Old 05-21-2011, 12:43 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_jitsu View Post

Can anyone speculate where the CHT 18 would fit in? If I remember correctly it was ahead of the HSU in terms of musicality. I seriousl doubt that it could compete w/ the Submersive, but of course I have 6 18is for less than the price of 2 Submersives.

I mean really?
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post #382 of 553 Old 05-21-2011, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otk View Post


i believe the whole thing starts here

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post20459041

then i questioned how he came up with that figure for the cost of the cap

mm didn't say "no" difference but he was saying the difference would not be that significant, saying only 1-3db and using guess work on the output of the powered cap to back up his points

then from there it spiraled out of control

IMO, in the "subwoofer world", i think 3db is a lot. it's 1/2 a sub if you're adding a 2nd sub and if you're adding a 3rd sub, 3db is a whole subwoofer and that's under perfect stacking conditions

I didn't use "guess work" at all, I used simple mathematics with existing, reliable
formulae.

The consideration was, again, the powered Cap's amp at its rated 4000 watts vs my amplifier which has tested and been confirmed at 2300...not the Behringer EP 4000.

My "conclusion" was that it was up to the consumer to determine if the 1-3 dbs of output for another $11-$1200 was worthwhile on an otherwise $1500 subwoofer.

Now, bosso entered and noted that the internal eqing also offered more output. Ok, I'm not even going to argue that point anymore...if you feel it (EQing) cannot be reproduced elsewhere in the chain if not fully, then part of the way at least, fine.

What is 3dbs? That's for the user to decide. To me, solely basing it upon being another "1/2" sub is nonsense (sorry otk) as few (I would hope anyway) really purchase another subwoofer at a cost of thousands many times for another 3-6dbs of output...it's mainly for smoothing and increased uniform response across the dimensions of a room. I'd like to think anyway...YMMV.

Again, I am extremely welcome to a POW CAP vs. a PAS CAP right on my living room if anyone's interested, but I'm sure that's just another hornets nest in the making.

Personally I think bosso/seaton made a salient case for popping for the powered cap, but I still cringe a bit on the doubling of cost, even if perhaps I am now a bit more learned as to its potential benes.

Again, I enjoy the fact that I have the opportunity to make a choice.

Have a good weekend gentlemen.

James

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Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #383 of 553 Old 05-21-2011, 12:45 PM
 
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The music "ranking" here is next to meaningless, and speculating where something fits in there is a waste of time.

The only reason it's not completely meaningless is because everyone knew which subwoofer they were listening to, and thus everything came out roughly how you'd expect such a ranking to go.

Call Seaton up, order a Submersive, put it in your room properly placed and EQd- then do a blind test. That's the only way you'll ever know.

If you're not willing to do that, then don't worry about it.
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post #384 of 553 Old 05-21-2011, 12:48 PM
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It seems everyone on this thread could use an electronic "cold one" ...myself included.

James

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Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #385 of 553 Old 05-21-2011, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_jitsu View Post

Can anyone speculate where the CHT 18 would fit in? If I remember correctly it was ahead of the HSU in terms of musicality. I seriousl doubt that it could compete w/ the Submersive, but of course I have 6 18is for less than the price of 2 Submersives.

Speculating about a sub that wasn't even present at the meet is even more fruitless than the number surfing by the rest of us pertaining to the subs that were there. Even if the CHT bested the HSU in one setting tells nothing about how it would compare in a totally different set of acoustics. There are way too many variables and way too few constants.
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post #386 of 553 Old 05-21-2011, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_jitsu View Post

Can anyone speculate where the CHT 18 would fit in? If I remember correctly it was ahead of the HSU in terms of musicality. I seriousl doubt that it could compete w/ the Submersive, but of course I have 6 18is for less than the price of 2 Submersives.

I think there is enough speculation in this thread as is. I would like the subject matter to at least be about subwoofers that were brought to the GTG. The invitation was available and nobody brought one. Plenty of places to take this question. I am sure you are enjoying your setup!!
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post #387 of 553 Old 05-21-2011, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post


Again, I am extremely welcome to a POW CAP vs. a PAS CAP right on my living room if anyone's interested, but I'm sure that's just another hornets nest in the making.

That would be a really useful comparison to help those on the fence between a powered and unpowered Cap.
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post #388 of 553 Old 05-21-2011, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
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My "conclusion" was that it was up to the consumer to determine if the 1-3 dbs

that's impossible

there can't be a range of difference between the 2

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post #389 of 553 Old 05-21-2011, 01:24 PM
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The Captivator is most likely the best vented/PR commercial sub in the market right now. It has the biggest driver, enclosure and power. At its price point, it should perform the best.

Comparing it with a DIY PR18 with the LMS 18" 5400 driver with 4,000watts in a 200-250L box, tuned in the 15-20hz range, if given the choice, I'll take the LMS set-up. As most people know, the LMS is one of the best (if not the best) driver out there. It's heavier, more linear (has lower FS and goes well past 100hz), more xmax, works on both small sealed/PR set-ups. Also, most likely it will take more power and have less distortion compared to the Cap driver. It has been tested several times and the results speak for themselves. Where the Cap has an advantage is in the sensitivity. There is a posibility that say between 20-80hz, the Cap will match or even slightly put out more SPL than the LMS. My question is, will it sound cleaner for HT and have better SQ than the LMS driver pushed at or near their limit?

I'm sure there will be another sub comparison where the Cap will be tested in the future and perhaps Ricci will get the opportunity to test one. Meanwhile, we'll have to be patient and wait. Either way, no reason to get offended.

I will also like to add that looking at the chart, the Submersive had more SPL in all the movie scenes but one scene but came in second for the HT ranking, interesting. Also, going by the comments of both subs, it seems that the Submersive was the #1 choice sub for both HT/SQ. The Submersive has better extension, more SD (two 15" drivers vs one 18" driver), lower box vibration (due to the dual opposed layout). On the other hand, the Cap has a bigger box, more power and perhaps more xmax. Sensitivity? Should be close, although two sub drivers like the Submersive has gives another 3db gain in sensitivity.

They are both excellent subs in the commercial world, specially at their price point. People will take into account the size of their space, value, size of the sub, percentage of use for HT vs music and make the choice according to those needs. Just my take.
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post #390 of 553 Old 05-21-2011, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by spanish68 View Post

The Captivator is most likely the best vented/PR commercial sub in the market right now. It has the biggest driver, enclosure and power. At its price point, it should perform the best.

Comparing it with a DIY PR18 with the LMS 18" 5400 driver with 4,000watts in a 200-250L box, tuned in the 15-20hz range, if given the choice, I'll take the LMS set-up. As most people know, the LMS is one of the best (if not the best) driver out there. It's heavier, more linear (has lower FS and goes well past 100hz), more xmax, works on both small sealed/PR set-ups. Also, most likely it will take more power and have less distortion compared to the Cap driver. It has been tested several times and the results speak for themselves. Where the Cap has an advantage is in the sensitivity. There is a posibility that say between 20-80hz, the Cap will match or even slightly put out more SPL than the LMS. My question is, will it sound cleaner for HT and have better SQ than the LMS driver pushed at or near their limit?

I'm sure there will be another sub comparison where the Cap will be tested in the future and perhaps Ricci will get the opportunity to test one. Meanwhile, we'll have to be patient and wait. Either way, no reason to get offended.

I will also like to add that looking at the chart, the Submersive had more SPL in all the movie scenes but one scene but came in second for the HT ranking, interesting. Also, going by the comments of both subs, it seems that the Submersive was the #1 choice sub for both HT/SQ. The Submersive has better extension, more SD (two 15" drivers vs one 18" driver), lower box vibration (due to the dual opposed layout). On the other hand, the Cap has a bigger box, more power and perhaps more xmax. Sensitivity? Should be close, although two sub drivers like the Submersive has gives another 3db gain in sensitivity.

They are both excellent subs in the commercial world, specially at their price point. People will take into account the size of their space, value, size of the sub, percentage of use for HT vs music and make the choice according to those needs. Just my take.

Fuggettaboutit! You're too level-headed and emotionally detached to take part in this discussion. Please step away! (Kidding!)
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