2011 Kansas City Subwoofer Meet Results - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 553 Old 05-24-2011, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

So, why is it that this standard setup procedure seems never to be followed for a shootout?

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I'll take a stab. Too many subs in too short a time.

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post #452 of 553 Old 05-24-2011, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by BiGBADDABOOM View Post

If we all assumed everyone knew everything, this forum wouldn't have any posts.

If you think no one will take this ranking and misinterpret it for something more meaningful, you're sadly mistaken.

I for one don't deny that all. But that's simply on them and shows a lack of a real, authentic desire to inform themselves as there's MUCH more to this than numerical order.

It's like buying a vehicle based solely on MPG or one sources "rankings": you can do it, but you should know better.

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post #453 of 553 Old 05-24-2011, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

I'll take a stab. Too many subs in too short a time.

Yep. Combined with a lack of the real expertise of some of the heavy hitters here (not directed at anyone in particular, KC or otherwise) and likely, a fear that a more serious (read: rigid) approach, if even slightly mis-applied, will yield the kind of ire in these parts that most would rather pass up for an unanesthetized circumcision.

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post #454 of 553 Old 05-24-2011, 10:53 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

I'll take a stab. Too many subs in too short a time.

I would have been more interested in a more thorough analysis of four of these subs, or even just an all-out shootout between the Cap and SubM. A brief run-through of all the subs for the sake of enjoying what the owners brought and hearing different things... but get analytic with 2-4 of the better designs.

I may be alone on that though.

Edit: I should add, if Chu is correct with those being the limiting factors to following bosso's advice.
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post #455 of 553 Old 05-24-2011, 10:57 AM
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That would be excellent. When should we expect your results?

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post #456 of 553 Old 05-24-2011, 11:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by _Avarice_ View Post

That would be excellent. When should we expect your results?

When everyone and their subs show up of course.
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post #457 of 553 Old 05-24-2011, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiGBADDABOOM View Post

I would have been more interested in a more thorough analysis of four of these subs, or even just an all-out shootout between the Cap and SubM. A brief run-through of all the subs for the sake of enjoying what the owners brought and hearing different things... but get analytic with 2-4 of the better designs.

I may be alone on that though.

At first I was ready to agree on a top two shoot out but then the ever so important element of the evil room sucking the bass out of things would not had been as apparent leaving people wondering why the performance of these two subs weren't as wowing as everyone thought they should've been. Having more subs in the mix made the issue more obvious in a right quick hurry. 4 on the other hand would've probably been the sweet spot.

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post #458 of 553 Old 05-24-2011, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

I'm pretty sure I couldn't tell which sounds better under those conditions. I could tell which has higher limits, of course.

I can't really say for sure which sounds better, the Captivator or the PB13 especially since they're tuned the same, but it's easy to tell that the PB13 will run out of juice well before the Captivator.

So, you actually have the PB13 and have had your Cap for weeks, and have compared them and don't have a preference in sound quality between the two, but the Cap clearly has higher limits in actual listening.

If this is not what you meant, please correct me.
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post #459 of 553 Old 05-24-2011, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

So, you actually have the PB13 and have had your Cap for weeks, and have compared them and don't have a preference in sound quality between the two, but the Cap clearly has higher limits in actual listening.

If this is not what you meant, please correct me.

Actually, I've had the Cap for about five months now. Early on, I did a comparison between the two using some well-recorded music. The music was of the acoustic stand-up bass variety. That's my favorite stuff to evaluate SQ. This was not a real extensive comparison, but during the sessions I was not able to definitively choose a prefeernce between the two.

Now with movies, the sheer clean output capabilities of the Captivator take over as soon as I get within about -7 to -5 db from reference. The ease in which the Captivator is able to play back equivalent levels as the PB13 becomes readily noticeable as the levels increase. The problem is that many more things in my room now rattle.
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post #460 of 553 Old 05-24-2011, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by vraxoin View Post

Though I know that Kansas City is nowhere near Joplin, I just wanted to say that I hope all of our MO friends and their family and friends are safe and sound.

I don't think any of us were involved in that storm, but thank you for the well wishes. I have a Kansas City friend who was at his parent's house in Nevada Missouri, which isn't far from Joplin. He called me at 1AM that night of the twister and relayed that he had driven over to Joplin, out of curiousity, after hearing about the storm to see what the damage looked like. He said he had gotten only 1 block into town when frantic people stopped him and asked him to help them search the rubble of a payless shoe store for two missing girls. Of course he helped. They looked for 2.5 hours and didn't find any trace of the missing girls. He worked in the town till about the time he called me to relay his story. He said the town looked utterly destroyed and was unreal to see. Fortunately he said the town filled up with volunteers who came in steadily through the night to provide assistance. In fact there were so many people who showed up to help, that it seemed they might be in the way more than provide ability to be helpful. At that point he left and called me.

I heard it was classified as an F4 tornado and was nearly a mile wide and nearly six miles long. Terrifying!

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post #461 of 553 Old 05-24-2011, 11:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Actually, I've had the Cap for about five months now. Early on, I did a comparison between the two using some well-recorded music. The music was of the acoustic stand-up bass variety. That's my favorite stuff to evaluate SQ. This was not a real extensive comparison, but during the sessions I was not able to definitively choose a prefeernce between the two.

Now with movies, the sheer clean output capabilities of the Captivator take over as soon as I get within about -7 to -5 db from reference. The ease in which the Captivator is able to play back equivalent levels as the PB13 becomes readily noticeable as the levels increase.

That jives with my subjective impression that the Captivator and the SVS sounded the most alike of our lineup.

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post #462 of 553 Old 05-24-2011, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

That jives with my subjective impression that the Captivator and the SVS sounded the most alike of our lineup.

But that SVS in your line-up is less desirable than current SVS's and the PB13U.

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post #463 of 553 Old 05-24-2011, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

Oh yeah, just to add to a firestorm, Tom N. still says put the sub in a corner and equalize for the best seat. I thought the event was fun but I certainly don't consider myself an expert and my ears are "old".

I know audio memory pretty much will discredit my question but I have to ask. Do you remember how Geddes multiple smaller/lower costs subs sounded compared to this test, I remember you being one of the individuals that actually has been in Geddes room.

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post #464 of 553 Old 05-24-2011, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

wotw wasn't counted in the total ranking as noted by the asterisk and the Color and the note. All other scores were averaged using the total number of reviewers as the divisor. Check the math. I believe it to be accurate.

I thought I was missing something. Right there it was. I didn't see the note before.
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post #465 of 553 Old 05-24-2011, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

That jives with my subjective impression that the Captivator and the SVS sounded the most alike of our lineup.

Correct me if I wrong, but didn't you compare an older SVS PB-12 Plus and not a PB-13 Ultra (to the Cap)?

In the September 2009 issue of Sound&Vision the revised PB-12 Plus had the highest 20 Hz output in a group of subs costing as much as >$2,800. The then new PB-12 Plus measured 114.8 db at 20 Hz using the 525 watt BASH amp.

Now the PB-12 Plus has the 800 watt Sledge DSP amp and can probably do even better
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post #466 of 553 Old 05-24-2011, 12:01 PM
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The SVS on the GTG was an older model from 2005 or so, based on the photos in this thread.

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post #467 of 553 Old 05-24-2011, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I know audio memory pretty much will discredit my question but I have to ask. Do you remember how Geddes multiple smaller/lower costs subs sounded compared to this test, I remember you being one of the individuals that actually has been in Geddes room.

Well, when I visited Earl's home, we did not listen to any really low bass. What I told Earl and stand by it is that it was the best integrated bass (there was a seamless transition to bass and the bass was papable) I have ever heard. We listened to Cream Live at Royal Albert Hall (the most recent reunion) and the bass to me seemed perfect and it was like being there. I listened to CD's and his set-up sound wise is just excellent. We also watched a movie but it was not a bass heavy movie.

Now, I also visited recently a room fully designed by Dennis Erskine and Shawn Byrne and it is not far from my daughter's house. That home theater had the best low bass I have ever heard (remember I didn't stay for the GTG movie shoot out except for the first three subs). We listened to some of the same clips that we listened to at the shootout. Master and Commander, the John Mayer sequence, and a couple others. Dennis and Shawn's room killed what I heard at the sub shoot out. That theater had two Danley DIY's and 3 Klipsch subs I believe (none of which you could see). It was very impressive.
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post #468 of 553 Old 05-24-2011, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

That jives with my subjective impression that the Captivator and the SVS sounded the most alike of our lineup.

I not saying my two subs sounded exactly alike when I compared them. There were differences, but I found myself unable to decide which of the two sound better. They both sounded very good to me. Of course now I run the two of them blended together.
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post #469 of 553 Old 05-24-2011, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Of course now I run the two of them blended together.

Does the lower headroom of the SVS hold the Cap back? IOW, could the Cap alone play back louder than the Cap/SVS combo?

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post #470 of 553 Old 05-24-2011, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Does the lower headroom of the SVS hold the Cap back? IOW, could the Cap alone play back louder than the Cap/SVS combo?

Craig

I have the subs calibrated so that the Cap does much more of the work. At reference levels, neither sub is struggling. Quite frankly, I do not need the SVS for help in the output department, but it really helps in smoothing out the room response.

This is what I wind up with the two blended together and no eq applied:
LL
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post #471 of 553 Old 05-24-2011, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

Well, when I visited Earl's home, we did not listen to any really low bass. What I told Earl and stand by it is that it was the best integrated bass (there was a seamless transition to bass and the bass was papable) I have ever heard. We listed to Cream Live at Royal Albert Hall (the most recent reunion) and the bass to me seemed perfect and it was like being there. I listened to CD's and his set-up sound wise is just excellent. We also watched a movie but it was not a bass heavy movie.

Now, I also visited recently a room fully designed by Dennis Erskine and Shawn Byrne and it is not far from my daughter's house. That home theater had the best low bass I have ever heard (remember I didn't stay for the GTG movie shoot out except for the first three subs). We listened to some of the same clips that we listened to at the shootout. Master and Commander, the John Mayer sequence, and a couple others. Dennis and Shawn's room killed what I heard at the sub shoot out. That theater had two Danley DIY's and 3 Klipsch subs I believe (none of which you could see). It was very impressive.


I need to beg a visit to that room some day.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233232
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post #472 of 553 Old 05-24-2011, 12:36 PM
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love that shot mmike, just a stupid result, especially considering no EQ.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #473 of 553 Old 05-24-2011, 12:37 PM
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Just an addition to my previous post, another little trick I'm doing to keep the two subs' bottom-end rolloff below 15hz well-matched is to use the PB13 with one port plugged, but with it's filter switch in the sealed position. This takes the SVS filter out of the picture. Then I use a 14 hz HP filter applied to both subs.
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post #474 of 553 Old 05-24-2011, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

love that shot mmike, just a stupid result, especially considering no EQ.

James

To be frank, I was shocked by that little miracle. It made me go back to check to see if Audyssey was indeed turned off.
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post #475 of 553 Old 05-24-2011, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chirpie View Post

I need to beg a visit to that room some day.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233232

yes, you do!
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post #476 of 553 Old 05-24-2011, 03:01 PM
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Randy, can you comment further on the subs in Earl's room, their placement, and whatever 'tricks' he was using? WRT Earl, any measurements? Also, no chance that you listened to some of the same material at Erskine's as you did at Earl's home?

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post #477 of 553 Old 05-24-2011, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

Well, when I visited Earl's home, we did not listen to any really low bass. What I told Earl and stand by it is that it was the best integrated bass (there was a seamless transition to bass and the bass was papable) I have ever heard. We listened to Cream Live at Royal Albert Hall (the most recent reunion) and the bass to me seemed perfect and it was like being there. I listened to CD's and his set-up sound wise is just excellent. We also watched a movie but it was not a bass heavy movie.

Now, I also visited recently a room fully designed by Dennis Erskine and Shawn Byrne and it is not far from my daughter's house. That home theater had the best low bass I have ever heard (remember I didn't stay for the GTG movie shoot out except for the first three subs). We listened to some of the same clips that we listened to at the shootout. Master and Commander, the John Mayer sequence, and a couple others. Dennis and Shawn's room killed what I heard at the sub shoot out. That theater had two Danley DIY's and 3 Klipsch subs I believe (none of which you could see). It was very impressive.

If you are referring to bonedoc...........from my recollection the three other subs besides the Danley's were DIY shivas...............but I could be wrong.
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post #478 of 553 Old 05-25-2011, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

If you are referring to bonedoc...........from my recollection the three other subs besides the Danley's were DIY shivas...............but I could be wrong.

Perhaps that could be right. I know his mains were Klipsch but the other 3 could have been Shivas. In any event, I couldn't see any of them.
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post #479 of 553 Old 05-25-2011, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Randy, can you comment further on the subs in Earl's room, their placement, and whatever 'tricks' he was using? WRT Earl, any measurements? Also, no chance that you listened to some of the same material at Erskine's as you did at Earl's home?

No unfortunately I did not listen to the same material and I don't have any measurements...strictly subjective. To be honest, I am not sure where the subs where located. His mains where behind a false wall and screen and I think at least one of the subs was there. I think his set-up is to use one LFE sub and two to fill in the gaps so to speak with placement and gain. Similiar to Harmans Sound Field Management, but with Harman it is done automatically and with Earl it is manual. Earl is all about getting the best bang for buck. He uses a sheet for a screen and even will tell you the right fibre count.
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post #480 of 553 Old 05-25-2011, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

Well, when I visited Earl's home, we did not listen to any really low bass. What I told Earl and stand by it is that it was the best integrated bass (there was a seamless transition to bass and the bass was papable) I have ever heard. We listened to Cream Live at Royal Albert Hall (the most recent reunion) and the bass to me seemed perfect and it was like being there. I listened to CD's and his set-up sound wise is just excellent. We also watched a movie but it was not a bass heavy movie.

Now, I also visited recently a room fully designed by Dennis Erskine and Shawn Byrne and it is not far from my daughter's house. That home theater had the best low bass I have ever heard (remember I didn't stay for the GTG movie shoot out except for the first three subs). We listened to some of the same clips that we listened to at the shootout. Master and Commander, the John Mayer sequence, and a couple others. Dennis and Shawn's room killed what I heard at the sub shoot out. That theater had two Danley DIY's and 3 Klipsch subs I believe (none of which you could see). It was very impressive.

Goes to show just how important the room, careful setup, and placement of subs in a room is to the subjective sound quality.

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