2011 Kansas City Subwoofer Meet Results - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 553 Old 07-19-2011, 03:09 PM
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I don't think it's fair to try and compare the SVS Ultra to any of the subs at the KC GTG because it simply wasn't present. Hopefully when the Caps arrive you can compare the Ultra to the Cap. That'll be an interesting read.

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post #542 of 553 Old 07-19-2011, 03:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by counsil View Post
I don't think it's fair to try and compare the SVS Ultra to any of the subs at the KC GTG because it simply wasn't present. Hopefully when the Caps arrive you can compare the Ultra to the Cap. That'll be an interesting read.
Fair enough - except the Jamo D7 subs were mine for two months before the meet, and the SVS PB13 Ultra's have been mine for the last month +. I've had a significant amount of time with both subs - listening to both combos nearly every day for some portion of time. I know I personally enjoyed listening to most music more on the Jamo's and I personally enjoy watching movies MUCH more on the SVS PB13's. The meet can be completely left out of the equation because I was the owner of both sets for a long enough period of time to really have an opinon formed on a LOT of listening time with both sets. If you look in my Jamo thread you'll see me commenting in there many times on just how awesome I thought the Jamo's sounded for music. I've only heard a few songs that made me think the SVS sounded great for music. There just isn't enough midbass on the SVS for my tastes, (nor perhaps your tastes? -- hence the previous combination with the four Epik Empires!)

The pair of JTR Captivators Vs. the pair of SVS Ultra's should be very interesting indeed. Of course any of you guys who attended the original meet are welcome to come over and give a listen and opinion. Perhaps I'll organize a day soon to do so. It'll have to be fairly quickly because I don't want to have so many subs/money tied up in my basement. There could be a third contender - but I'll leave that to PMs until the parties involved express their interest.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #543 of 553 Old 07-19-2011, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Fair enough - except the Jamo D7 subs were mine for two months before the meet, and the SVS PB13 Ultra's have been mine for the last month +. I've had a significant amount of time with both subs - listening to both combos nearly every day for some portion of time. I know I personally enjoyed listening to most music more on the Jamo's and I personally enjoy watching movies MUCH more on the SVS PB13's. The meet can be completely left out of the equation because I was the owner of both sets for a long enough period of time to really have an opinon formed on a LOT of listening time with both sets. If you look in my Jamo thread you'll see me commenting in there many times on just how awesome I thought the Jamo's sounded for music. I've only heard a few songs that made me think the SVS sounded great for music. There just isn't enough midbass on the SVS for my tastes, (nor perhaps your tastes? -- hence the previous combination with the four Epik Empires!)

The pair of JTR Captivators Vs. the pair of SVS Ultra's should be very interesting indeed. Of course any of you guys who attended the original meet are welcome to come over and give a listen and opinion. Perhaps I'll organize a day soon to do so. It'll have to be fairly quickly because I don't want to have so many subs/money tied up in my basement. There could be a third contender - but I'll leave that to PMs until the parties involved express their interest.
I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know when I say that what you hear whether listening to the Jamo's or the SVS's is a product of the subs+ your room. As we know from various ground-plane tests, the PB13's lack nothing in their frequency response. Their anechoic response is very flat. Depending on the nature of the room they are in, they might sound "heavy" due to the effect of room gain disproportionately boosting the deeper frequencies. The net effect is that the midbass can sound deficient by comparison. This is not really any fault of the sub, but it is simply the way it may interact with certain room. On the other hand, the sealed Jamos are most likely beginning their rolloff in the 30's. Coupled with room gain, they might come out quite balanced. What this means is that with frequency response measurements and eq (perhaps even the sub's own eq and/or compensation controls in the amp), the SVS's could easily be made to sound the way you prefer.

As far as the Captivators go, I have a feeling that their natural raw response is going to be very appealing to you. In their passive form they naturally have a large midbass prominence which should cause their midbass performance to hold up well even in the face of low-end room gain.
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post #544 of 553 Old 07-19-2011, 04:08 PM
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There just isn't enough midbass on the SVS for my tastes

Any measurements to find out why?? maybe you just enjoy peaking response from many of the designs?

Both designs can definitely have different response curves in your room depending on many variables so to have a valid listening comparison both designs have to be located in the same spot, you have to stand in the same spot and both design have to be EQed to match. Yeah, it gets tedious.

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post #545 of 553 Old 07-19-2011, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Fair enough - except the Jamo D7 subs were mine for two months before the meet, and the SVS PB13 Ultra's have been mine for the last month +. I've had a significant amount of time with both subs - listening to both combos nearly every day for some portion of time. I know I personally enjoyed listening to most music more on the Jamo's and I personally enjoy watching movies MUCH more on the SVS PB13's.

Unfortunately I'm not very familiar with the Jamo D7. So I can only comment so much. But what I have read about the Jamo hasn't been too favorable in regards to extension.

I would need to see some frequency response sweeps that showed how the Jamo behaves as it's pushed to its limits, but I have a feeling that the Jamo was able to give you that midbass slam because it wasn't tasked with the ULFs at higher SPLs. I've seen this with several subs (like the Velodynes). The SVSs do not exhibit this behavior. They are pretty much linear all the way to their limits (with relatively low distortion). Do you happen to have any links to some Jamo D7 measurements (FR, ground plane, distortion)?

All this said, you shouldn't have this compromise with the Caps. From what I have been reading you should have all the headroom you would ever want (notice how I didn't type *need* ).

Quote:


The meet can be completely left out of the equation because I was the owner of both sets for a long enough period of time to really have an opinon formed on a LOT of listening time with both sets. If you look in my Jamo thread you'll see me commenting in there many times on just how awesome I thought the Jamo's sounded for music. I've only heard a few songs that made me think the SVS sounded great for music. There just isn't enough midbass on the SVS for my tastes, (nor perhaps your tastes? -- hence the previous combination with the four Epik Empires!)

Actually I enjoy my FR to be flat, even for music. I purchased the Empires because I wanted to fill in the 25Hz - 60Hz area because that's where my in-room frequency response was lacking due to the placement of my Ultras. EQ corrected that area just fine before the Empires. I just wanted to have some more toys to play with.

Quote:


The pair of JTR Captivators Vs. the pair of SVS Ultra's should be very interesting indeed. Of course any of you guys who attended the original meet are welcome to come over and give a listen and opinion. Perhaps I'll organize a day soon to do so. It'll have to be fairly quickly because I don't want to have so many subs/money tied up in my basement. There could be a third contender - but I'll leave that to PMs until the parties involved express their interest.

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post #546 of 553 Old 07-19-2011, 04:09 PM - Thread Starter
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This is very true in regards to room making ALL the difference. I do agree with you on the SVS being tied and true and proven to be as flat as they come!

points of contention however:

1)Ain't no roll off at 30hz on those Jamos' Here are some FR graphs taken in my room with Luke Kamp's ominmike.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post20212041
The Jamo's were THX Ultra II certified subs which at least means extension to 20hz with +/- 6dB Notice they look very flat up to the null in my room at 50hz and down below 20hz.

2) My room doesn't give gain, at least not traditional levels of room gain. When luke has had his omnimic over on several occasion and during the meet it was recognized that placement didn't matter as much as it likely should have. The guys who were attending with the measuring equipment, Luke, and counsil will confirm.

BTW, the Jamos were lined up along the front wall for those tests, probably about 1/3 in on each side (though not exactly because my room isn't perfectly square - one side is elongated before a big stone fireplace). When we tried the corner's one time or another the measurements weren't any better, so we moved them back more to the center.

I do not have measuring equipment so I do not know what the SVS are currently doing in comparison to the graphs I luke made for the Jamo setup. The SVS DEFIANTLY feel like they have a lot more to offer down low in the ULF range - so based on that!!! it could be exactly as you say that they are offering so much down low that they aren't configured correctly to make it feel flat and balanced in the mid bass frequencies. I'd be interested to see some graphs myself, but don't have the equipment yet and am pretty much spending myself into the doghouse lately on subwoofers so I don't have plans to buy the equipment in the short term. Yes -- I'll pre-emptively admit I'll likely be told I'm doing this wrong. Buy measuring equipment first and quit buying subwoofers until you get measuring equipment and figure out what the problem is! JUST keep in mind that luke's omnimic has been in my house on a couple occassions and counsil's measurement gear has been there too (though counsil's just for the meet). There wasn't seemingly a whole lot that could be done with my room without dropping in some new walls! SOOO then perhaps I'm just on a quest to buy subs that best match my cruddy room!?!? I supposed tonight I'll turn on the room compensation on the SVS which should drop off the lowest frequencies, and then put it in a 20hz tune and crank up the gain a bit more and see if I like that sound better - Generally speaking that should meet your recommendation....

I've moved those SVS all over my front wall in testing different locations. The corners is where they are now because it gives me a smidgeon more of the crazy low ULF for movie watching, but no matter where I put them I've not enjoyed them as much for music overall as I did the Jamo pair. It could even be reference vs. preference for sound --- but then as judging by the Jamo FR graphs linked above - the Jamo's were pretty darn flat to reference. And you guys know I LOVE the low stuff boosted (if you've read enough of my posts to know anything about me!!!) -- that was my sole complaint about the Jamo's is they didn't have enough guts down real low -- no ability to force a smile!!!! So if the SVS are delivering more there (and I know they are!!! --- WOTW sounds awesome on the SVS!) I should be pleased as peach, but for some reason I'm not.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #547 of 553 Old 07-19-2011, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know when I say that what you hear whether listening to the Jamo's or the SVS's is a product of the subs+ your room. As we know from various ground-plane tests, the PB13's lack nothing in their frequency response. Their anechoic response is very flat. Depending on the nature of the room they are in, they might sound "heavy" due to the effect of room gain disproportionately boosting the deeper frequencies. The net effect is that the midbass can sound deficient by comparison. This is not really any fault of the sub, but it is simply the way it may interact with certain room. On the other hand, the sealed Jamos are most likely beginning their rolloff in the 30's. Coupled with room gain, they might come out quite balanced. What this means is that with frequency response measurements and eq (perhaps even the sub's own eq and/or compensation controls in the amp), the SVS's could easily be made to sound the way you prefer.

As far as the Captivators go, I have a feeling that their natural raw response is going to be very appealing to you. In their passive form they naturally have a large midbass prominence which should cause their midbass performance to hold up well even in the face of low-end room gain.

Agreed.

BTW, I starting typing my response before dinner and just finished. I see now that I didn't even need to respond as you had it covered.

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post #548 of 553 Old 07-29-2011, 08:57 PM
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Just sent out some PMs, but just wanted to send out an open invitation to anyone in the area that wanted to hit up a GTG in Omaha on October 22.

Should be a fun day! Have a thread started.

-Greg

 



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post #549 of 553 Old 07-29-2011, 11:14 PM
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For what it is worth, this thread helped me in my decision to purchse the Epik Empire. I can only say what a freaking pimp sub this is. Had it for three weeks now and it just continues to impress me.

Thanks for all the hard work!


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post #550 of 553 Old 07-30-2011, 07:53 PM
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For what it is worth, this thread helped me in my decision to purchse the Epik Empire. I can only say what a freaking pimp sub this is. Had it for three weeks now and it just continues to impress me.

Thanks for all the hard work!

I really like my Empires. They never go into distress no matter the content being played. They also have incredible amounts of mid-bass. More than you would ever expect.

They also typically extend to 15-20Hz in-room (18Hz in my basement), but drop off steeply below that. IMHO they are a great value. I'm glad you're enjoying your's.

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post #551 of 553 Old 07-30-2011, 11:59 PM
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Hey, I agree! The sub is worth every penny and never sweats no matter what you throw at it!


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post #552 of 553 Old 10-30-2011, 06:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Anybody in KC up for doing a blind listening test on a few high class contendors in matching config - singles or duals - whatever we can come up with? Sometime this January - as things are slower? My wife and kids are going to be out of town a couple weeks and so I'll have a couple free weekends to make this happen - from Jan 4 to Jan 20. Blind testing with owner's score being thrown out on their own sub - post audition should be a good test. People hooking up the subs could offer subjective comments - but would not vote.

My room affords blind testing fairly well if we just place the subs in the back of the room and hang a sheet behind the seating position. The walk-out basement in the rear makes it very easy to move things in and out.

Counsil? - Submersive HP

Energyfun? - JL F113

tcottonab? - PB13 Ultra Sledge

Archaea? - Captivator Pro

HuskerOmaha? - CHT sub - 18.1 SS or 18.2 SS or 18.1 vs (whatever you end up with)

All the rest of the gang who'd like to attend could do so as voting listners (or provide other sub options if anyone can think of something they'd like to line up against these subs. I'd like to keep the lineup length less than a half dozen entries to make the blind testing manageable.

link for interest
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post21145216

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #553 of 553 Old 11-07-2012, 10:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Drumming up interest for a KC speaker meet
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1438080/kansas-city-speaker-g2g-and-barbecue-in-the-park-november-2012/0_20

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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