2011 Kansas City Subwoofer Meet Results - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 05:34 AM
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^ Yeah it prolly wasn't (pushed to its limit) but, IIRC, didn't it have the most SPL in most of the scenes?

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #62 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

^ Yeah it prolly wasn't (pushed to its limit) but, IIRC, didn't it have the most SPL in most of the scenes?

James

On average, not really. It seemed that the three subs, the JTR, The Seaton, and the Yamaha, all seemed to alternately put out the highest levels depending on the particular movie. I believe that each of the three were putting out the levels that they were calibrated for with respect to the overall output from the receiver. The variations seen were most likely a product of their individual in-room frequency responses. I'm betting they probably all had more that they could give, especially the Yamaha and the Captivator.
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post #63 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 06:08 AM
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Well, we of course do not yet have the official results, but it appears one and two will go how pretty much how I anticipated:

The Seaton's the overall top performer.

The Cap is the HT's dream: an absurdly tactile, ultra-high output sub. The fact that a few have already rated it closely behind the Submersive in regards to music speaks to its overall prowess as well, IMO.

It's too bad the Yammy doesn't stretch a bit lower, but afterall, that's not really its purpose to begin with.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #64 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

On average, not really. It seemed that the three subs, the JTR, The Seaton, and the Yamaha, all seemed to alternately put out the highest levels depending on the particular movie. I believe that each of the three were putting out the levels that they were calibrated for with respect to the overall output from the receiver. The variations seen were most likely a product of their individual in-room frequency responses. I'm betting they probably all had more that they could give, especially the Yamaha and the Captivator.

Yep, you're right. For whatever reason I was recollecting a couple of big numbers for the Yammy and extrapolating them too far. They all seemed to bounce around between the 3.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #65 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 07:03 AM
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I appreciate the effort to compile and add the SPL chart, but I think it is fairly compromised given the lack of calibration data, location data, unstandardized setup, along with other possible inconstancies. Just my thoughts.

Thanks again for all of the reviews and efforts that went into the meet.

Edit: Apparently the locations were all the same. I will edit my above post.

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post #66 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 07:09 AM
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To compare that many subs is one day is an enormous effort. Undoubtably compromises had to be made, but under the circumstances, these guys got a whole lot done. Thanks for making it happen!
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post #67 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 07:10 AM
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I wonder if the 120 hz crossover was a reason why the Captivator didn't sound as good to me for music as the Submersive. I think if I had the cash I would buy 2 Submersives, put them close to the mains, cross them over pretty high, live happily ever after.

Doesn't the Cap fall off after 80hz and the Submersive does not?

As is I think the Cap is going to be great once I get it set up right. I'm having an issue with my amp right now, I'll post that in the Cap thread so I don't sidetrack this thread too much.


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post #68 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebuckaman View Post

I appreciate the effort to compile and add the SPL chart, but I think it is fairly compromised given the lack of calibration data, location data, unstandardized setup (ie. locations), along with other possible issues. Just my thoughts.

Thanks again for all of the reviews and efforts that went into the meet.

What do you think should have been done to accurately compare the SPL data? I'm not sure what type of calibration could have been done since all of the subs have different output capabilities for each scene. All of the subs were placed in the same location and the volume was turned up as high as the sub's owner was comfortable with. In some cases the scene was watched multiple times either lowering the volume until distortion was no longer heard or higher if no distortion was heard the first time. I'm sure if they had the time to run more passes of the scenes, some of the numbers could have been higher and some should be lower, but short of running waterfalls for every scene and comparing them to the electrical output of the scene, I don't know what else could have been done.

-Mike
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post #69 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

What do you think should have been done to accurately compare the SPL data? I'm not sure what type of calibration could have been done since all of the subs have different output capabilities for each scene. All of the subs were placed in the same location and the volume was turned up as high as the sub's owner was comfortable with. In some cases the scene was watched multiple times either lowering the volume until distortion was no longer heard or higher if no distortion was heard the first time. I'm sure if they had the time to run more passes of the scenes, some of the numbers could have been higher and some should be lower, but short of running waterfalls for every scene and comparing them to the electrical output of the scene, I don't know what else could have been done.

-Mike

Mike,

I feel that throwing out the numbers of "max spl" given the wide unknown of criteria to achieve that number, you will only create more questions than satisfied thread subscribers. If there is anything that gets the hornets nest buzzing around here, it is SPL numbers...

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post #70 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 07:39 AM
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Was any EQ used to flatten out the frequencies for each sub? There is a +/- 11 db's swing in the responses which is not good because the subs were not optimized as well as they could be. Having said that I expected the Cap and Submersive to walk all over the others and they should for the price.

Anyways, great job as this is much harder work than people know and takes lots of time and effort. The more subs used the harder it is to optimize each sub as there is not enough time in the day.

Max spl numbers should be the same if all subs were calibrated the same but it seems they were changed.
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post #71 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I wonder if the 120 hz crossover was a reason why the Captivator didn't sound as good to me for music as the Submersive. I think if I had the cash I would buy 2 Submersives, put them close to the mains, cross them over pretty high, live happily ever after.

Doesn't the Cap fall off after 80hz and the Submersive does not?

As is I think the Cap is going to be great once I get it set up right. I'm having an issue with my amp right now, I'll post that in the Cap thread so I don't sidetrack this thread too much.

One of the other questions I have is related to this. Some of the measurements were almost flat out to 200hz while others dropped off. Were the measurements taken with the sub plus the mains or the sub alone?

-Mike
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post #72 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebuckaman View Post

I appreciate the effort to compile and add the SPL chart, but I think it is fairly compromised given the lack of calibration data, location data, unstandardized setup, along with other possible inconstancies. Just my thoughts.

Thanks again for all of the reviews and efforts that went into the meet.

Edit: Apparently the locations were all the same. I will edit my above post.

It's been widely noted that those SPL figures should not be used as hard data as to the output abilities of the subs.

I agree that a usable chart would have been nice, but that's simply not how things went down. That said, I also appreciate the wealth of subjective opinion/scoring we're sure to take away from this.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #73 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I wonder if the 120 hz crossover was a reason why the Captivator didn't sound as good to me for music as the Submersive. I think if I had the cash I would buy 2 Submersives, put them close to the mains, cross them over pretty high, live happily ever after.

Doesn't the Cap fall off after 80hz and the Submersive does not?

As is I think the Cap is going to be great once I get it set up right. I'm having an issue with my amp right now, I'll post that in the Cap thread so I don't sidetrack this thread too much.

You might be on to something with the crossover. My own raw response measurements show the Cap rolling off above 80hz. The amp in the powered version might flatten that out with eq, however.

When it comes to SQ comparisons in a shoot-out such as this, it's very hard to do without optimally eq'ing each sub. That in itself could take hours per each subs
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post #74 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

What do you think should have been done to accurately compare the SPL data? I'm not sure what type of calibration could have been done since all of the subs have different output capabilities for each scene. All of the subs were placed in the same location and the volume was turned up as high as the sub's owner was comfortable with. In some cases the scene was watched multiple times either lowering the volume until distortion was no longer heard or higher if no distortion was heard the first time. I'm sure if they had the time to run more passes of the scenes, some of the numbers could have been higher and some should be lower, but short of running waterfalls for every scene and comparing them to the electrical output of the scene, I don't know what else could have been done.

-Mike

that other shootout thread was viciously attacked for the same thing. i guess you can't please everyone. especially when it comes to subwoofers

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I think the subjective reactions to the shootout end up being the most useful part of the entire meet. There is no replacement for how the subs were experienced by people via the ears and body.

I just think the spl numbers should be omitted to avoid the barrage of accusations that will inevitably follow. Not everybody reads the entire thread (possibly missing the posts requesting the spl figures not be used as hard data), and easy access to "the max output spl chart" on the first page will become the reference point for many arguments by casual post readers.

I'm just trying to be preemptive on losing the importance of this meet/thread with unneeded arguing.

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Post removed, my bad guys.


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post #77 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 08:59 AM
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As others have said, the spl numbers aren't telling the whole story. As I turned up the volume the subwoofer got louder, the room shook harder and pant legs flapped more however spl numbers didn't increase. The only think I can think of is that the shaking room was counter productive and causing cancelation at the measurement position.

The Captivator’s driver is bottomless however when it reaches its limits there is a slight amount of rocking so that the former will touch the pole, sounding like bottoming but not destructive. I’m going to update the amplifiers DSP so this doesn’t happen which will make the subwoofer sound much better at its limits.

I'm really happy with everyone's option on the Captivator's music performance. There had been a lot of speculation that the Captivator won't be musical.
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post #78 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post

As others have said, the spl numbers aren't telling the whole story. As I turned up the volume the subwoofer got louder, the room shook harder and pant legs flapped more however spl numbers didn't increase. The only think I can think of is that the shaking room was counter productive and causing cancelation at the measurement position.

The Captivator's driver is bottomless however when it reaches its limits there is a slight amount of rocking so that the former will touch the pole, sounding like bottoming but not destructive. I'm going to update the amplifiers DSP so this doesn't happen which will make the subwoofer sound much better at its limits.

I'm really happy with everyones options on the Captivator's performance on music.

That does not make sense at all, spl's should go up. I would almost guarentee that the Cap will play louder than the submersive being a ported 18 with lots of power. Having said that none of the sealed subs were optimized for lower frequency performance which would add to the movie experience. Now with people saying how bad this room was for bass maybe frequencies into the lower teens are not possible unless you have multiple submersives.
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post #79 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Also, that Yamaha should be able to play considerably louder than every other sub that was in the house. It was clearly not pushed to it's real max output.

The Yamaha was at it's limits on some of the clips. As to whether it was artificial limits because I got too greedy on the American DJ V3000 amp gain (maybe) or because the input signal was too hot at + 3.5 dB (prolly not). I don't know. I just got the sub and didn't even know I could find it's limits, with my equipment and crossovers I was using, my amp is well below it's max power handling, and thought the Yamaha had a built in crossover ( I just talked to Yamaha support and found out it does NOT have a built in crossover - they recommended an external EQ before the signal gets to the amp to eliminate sub 30hz frequencies. He also said ideally the top end signal would be 90hz) and I did have the high cut crossover set on my V3000 amp for 30hz (though we even tried 50hz high cut crossover in the John Mayer clip to no real advantage). Maybe the amp just isn't that good. At any rate we did find its limits. In hindsight I wish I wouldn't have cranked the amp's gain so hard (or at all) before we listened to any of the clips. For the music calibration all subs were matched to 75db with the test tone. My amp gain was on like 1/5 or 1/4 for the music. 1 of five lights was barely illuminating. For the movie section, I had complete control of everything and knowing I'd played it at 2/3's amp gain before the meet with a +0 dB sub level on the receiver and didn't hear any distortion, on a couple of the movie clips I immediately cranked the gain on the V3000 amp to about 3/4 gain before we started the Yamaha section. I was looking to impress with SPL! The combination of the additional +6dB on the Subwoofer level and the huge amount of gain turn up on the amp didn't work in the Yammy's favor. Just now, today, Monday -- I got off a tech support call with Yamaha, the guy said the American DJ amp is underpowered for that sub, but should be adequate in a small room like mine, because these subs are made for gymnasiums and clubs. He said they can't take much power down that low and you don't need that much power down low. He said the subs would be very agressive for a home theatre room, and while they wouldn't have as much sub sonic frequency reproduction as a specifically home theatre built sub, he chuckled and said they've tested these subs down to 15 and 20 hz in their testing facility and it'll make people's digestives systems have issues, throughout the building --- his words - not mine. He seemed amused I bought one for home theatre purposes. From my perspective during the testing I didn't hear much of anything going on with this sub down low, but I know I did hear a couple distortion pops in the first Knowing movie scene with the configuration I used for the testing well before Yamaha's max claimed SPL capabilities!!!


Knowing - That was pretty much it I think as I heard the sub make a odd popping noise or two.
Master & Commander - ship battle in fog - I didn't heard any distortion, but I had turned it down a couple ticks from the last settings on the AVR.
John Mayer - live recording of concert - I pushed it for all it was worth. I pushed it till the kick drums started not sounding accurate and backed off a couple ticks. As I mentioned before the Epik Empire handled this clip better than my Yamaha's to my utter surprise!
Ironman - suiting up and sonic boom - I'd heard Chirpie's SVS bottom out harder than any sub bottoming I'd ever heard and so I turned it way down on this clip and didn't even try for max SPL to save my subs from grenading.
Orphanage - erie house creaking, I turned it up decently, perhaps not max spl - I heard no distortion, but again - worried to save subs as this point because I'd already lost the Jamo and heard some other subs nearly give in.
THX Amazing Life clip - Didn't push it, that mushroom drum is LOW hz on this clip and I didn't push it at all. Too fearful.
Kung Fu Panda - skadoosh scene - Didn't even try. That skadooosh is just a sub killer and there's no point to try to do something the Yammy isn't going to do.
Tron - club entrace scene - turned it up until I heard a bit of an unclean edge - so I think that one is prolly max SPL. Perhaps there is a LOT of low going on in that note.

I was not nearly as daring on either the Jamo, nor this sub as many of the other guys were on theirs. My money tree died and since then I'm a bit more cautious with my equipment.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #80 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 09:16 AM - Thread Starter
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The mains were always going, at least while I was there.

The mains were NEVER going for the FR graphs and groundplane measurements. The mains were active during the actual music and movie testing only. carp was not there during this time, he came later in the day. carp would you please delete or edit that post to avoid confusion. We made a mistake one time and went back and redid it immediately. Counsil was comparing the charts each time he was taking them and immediately saw that one error before we even started the music demo. All the measurements should be sub only on counsil's graphs.

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post #81 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 09:18 AM
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I took 5 REW measurements of each sub. I took 1 measurement in each of the 4 main seats, and 1 indoor ground plane measurement.

Jenson - 4 main seats averaged



Jamo - 4 main seats averaged



SVS - 4 main seats averaged



Epik - 4 main seats averaged



Yamaha - 4 main seats averaged



Hsu - 4 main seats averaged



Seaton - 4 main seats averaged



Captivator - 4 main seats averaged


Hi counsil,

Thank you for posting all of these measurements. I know more than most how much work this can be!

I was out of town this weekend and haven't yet had time to download and look at the different measurements linked. The average can be very deceptive when we also start talking about the SPL the meter was reading. Could you post the response curves from where the SPL meter was placed? These could even be overlaid in 1-2 graphs.

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post #82 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 09:19 AM
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[quote=I'm really happy with everyone's option on the Captivator's music performance. There had been a lot of speculation that the Captivator won't be musical.[/QUOTE]

I failed to mention that after the shootout was over Jeff insisted on playing some more music for me. I wanted him to, but I didn't want to keep him any longer than I had to since he drove all the way down from Wisconsin and had been at Archea's house for around 12 hours straight!

I'm glad he did, the Cap was really pounding with music. I really enjoyed how Sad but True and The Unforgiven sounded - I would have greatly preferred to hear something off of their 2nd through 4th albums but hey, beggars can't be choosers.

I haven't had a chance at home to crank it like that since everyone was home yesterday, but I'm looking forward to it. I have to figure out this amp issue first though.


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post #83 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
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The mains were NEVER going for the FR graphs and groundplane measurements. The mains were active during the actual music and movie testing only. carp was not there during this time, he came later in the day. carp would you please delete or edit that post to avoid confusion. We made a mistake one time and went back and redid it immediately. Counsil was comparing the charts each time he was taking them and immediately saw that one error before we even started the music demo. All the measurements should be sub only on counsil's graphs.

done, sorry about that!!


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post #84 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 09:23 AM
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[quote=MKtheater;20444095]That does not make sense at all, spl's should go up.[quote]

As you probably know, if you have two speakers side by side and flip polarity on one then you lose a great deal on spl. Now imaging the vibrating room acting as the other speaker out of polarity.
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post #85 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 09:38 AM - Thread Starter
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I've heard 117, 118 or 119SPL in Luke's room with my two Jamo's and his HSU all going at the same time, according to his omnimic software. Luke do you remember exactly how high it went? My ears did not really hurt the next day.

What I heard on Saturday night was quite a bit louder than what I heard at Luke's place according to my body's vibrations and the way my ears feel both today and yesterday!!! Obviously that isn't scientific and is subjective, but that Cap was playing WAY louder than anything I've personally ever heard before.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"

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post #86 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 09:39 AM
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Jeff must be typing on a horrendously "correcting" PDA/phone, lol.

I for one was trying to figure out if MK was AGREEING with the fact that the spl should have gone up but didn't, or if he felt Jeff's contention didn't make sense.

MK???

James

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post #87 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chirpie View Post

-
- I really think Danley Sound Labs should invent a sub called "The Archaea Room Killer"
.

I really did laugh out loud when I read that. In my opinion the true winner was Archea's room!

How in the hell can Luke's HSU be made to sound like that... would we have been better off outside?

I hope you don't take any offense to the room comments Archea, I love your setup down there and I love the nice big room.


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post #88 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 09:47 AM
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Archaea-
If you want to try any bass traps, just say the word, come over and pick out what you want. No obligation.
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post #89 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Obviously that isn't scientific and is subjective, but that Cap was playing WAY louder than anything I've ever heard before.

I agree, the Submersive wasn't too far off but I would have bet a bunch of money that the spl's for the Cap were higher on everything but the Tron club music and John Mayer. I would have lost...


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post #90 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 10:59 AM
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Updated my post on the front page with photos.


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