2011 Kansas City Subwoofer Meet Results - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post

As you probably know, if you have two speakers side by side and flip polarity on one then you lose a great deal on spl. Now imaging the vibrating room acting as the other speaker out of polarity.
And the front wall in particular WOULD TOTALLY VIBRATE. I mean the screen would SHAKE. It was like some of the physical signs were there, you just couldn't hear/feel it on yourself.
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post #92 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post
As others have said, the spl numbers aren't telling the whole story. As I turned up the volume the subwoofer got louder, the room shook harder and pant legs flapped more however spl numbers didn't increase. The only think I can think of is that the shaking room was counter productive and causing cancelation at the measurement position.

The Captivator's driver is bottomless however when it reaches its limits there is a slight amount of rocking so that the former will touch the pole, sounding like bottoming but not destructive. I'm going to update the amplifiers DSP so this doesn't happen which will make the subwoofer sound much better at its limits.

I'm really happy with everyone's option on the Captivator's music performance. There had been a lot of speculation that the Captivator won't be musical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
That does not make sense at all, spl's should go up. I would almost guarentee that the Cap will play louder than the submersive being a ported 18 with lots of power. Having said that none of the sealed subs were optimized for lower frequency performance which would add to the movie experience. Now with people saying how bad this room was for bass maybe frequencies into the lower teens are not possible unless you have multiple submersives.
Is it possible that the frequency at which the max SPL's were being recorded was in a null and increasing the gain knob on the sub, while it would increase SPL's across other frequencies, wasn't in fact increasing the SPL at the null? Or that the frequency where the SPL was loudest was already causing deep compression with the sub and increasing the gain knob simply increased SPL across the higher end FR range for the particular scene in question? E.g., if a scene's loudest part was centered at 20hz and the sub went into deep compression at say 105db peaks at 20hz, and the rest of the scene was say 40hz to 80hz but mastered at a lower volume then increasing the gain knob would increase the SPL's everywhere but at 20hz where it's already hit it's limits.

Just making a WAG here and probably didn't explain what I was trying to say all that well ... but it is one of the reasons using a scene is somewhat meaningless to gauge "max SPL"...

 

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post #93 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 12:24 PM
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^ perhaps, but it seems there were an awful large number of scenes measured and you'd think at least a few would've yielded more realistic figures if that was the case.

James

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post #94 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post
Jeff must be typing on a horrendously "correcting" PDA/phone, lol.

I for one was trying to figure out if MK was AGREEING with the fact that the spl should have gone up but didn't, or if he felt Jeff's contention didn't make sense.

MK???

James
I was agreeing with him. Sorry for the confusion.
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post #95 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 12:33 PM
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was any of the testing blind ?

All this noise about noise.
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post #96 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 12:42 PM
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WOW! I honestly didn't think you guys were going to pull this off in one day. Great job!

Great reading!

Thanks!

You guys didn't make that old guy do any lifting did ya?

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post #97 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post
WOW! You guys didn't make that old guy do any lifting did ya?
I hope Jeff's back is feeling good, he was always the first to jump up and start moving the sub when it was time to switch - at least that's how it was when I was there.
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post #98 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post
WOW! I honestly didn't think you guys were going to pull this off in one day. Great job!

Great reading!

Thanks!

You guys didn't make that old guy do any lifting did ya?
You know I was kind of hoping that Chirpie with his photoshop abiliites would do a little (lot) touchup
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post #99 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 12:54 PM
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I think Jeff is very used to moving a lot of big subs. After all, he
doesn't build any small ones.
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post #100 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otk View Post

was any of the testing blind ?

No
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post #101 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

You know I was kind of hoping that Chirpie with his photoshop abiliites would do a little (lot) touchup

Now how did you know I was talking about you?

You are looking good, Randy!

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post #102 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Now how did you know I was talking about you?

You are looking good, Randy!

Well, all I can say is I'm not dead.
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post #103 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

You know I was kind of hoping that Chirpie with his photoshop abiliites would do a little (lot) touchup

LOL

I'll take a stab at it later.

It was good seeing you again sir.

EDIT: A quick nip/tuck, nothing too drastic.

:-P

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post #104 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 01:24 PM
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Are you (Archaea) going to look into amp replacements for the Jamos BTW?
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post #105 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chirpie View Post

LOL

I'll take a stab at it later.

It was good seeing you again sir.

EDIT: A quick nip/tuck, nothing too drastic.

:-P


Alright you are now my official photographer! Good seeing you as well. You had me laughing through most of the day.
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post #106 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otk View Post

was any of the testing blind ?


Only the captivator's testing...When you had to close your eyes to avoid being hit from flying dust and debris, and catch your balance again after staring at the projector screen vibrating around like it was involved in an earthquake.

There just wasn't enough time to do blind testing. So no, none of it was done blind. We went from 10AM to 10:30PM as it was. It was a good day.

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post #107 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
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With the variances in responses on who liked what best, I wonder if it mattered enough to determine a different victor outside of the top two (which were in a different class) based on seating position alone? Like if I had sat in a different seat would I have liked the empire or HSU more than than the SVS? We did keep the same seating arrangement all day, so we heard accurately what each sub did from the same seat, but we didn't hear the differences that might have been occurring from chair to chair.

Here was our seating setup, perhaps tonight I'll try to draw out a actual diagram with truer measurements.


- Left Main -- Projector/sub -- Right Main -

----------------~10 foot-----------------

--- Randy - Echaot - Luke - Archaea ---

------------- ---~2 foot-----------------

--------Chirpie -- Jeff -- counsil ---------








carp sat in Randy's chair when he came over, because Randy had left for the evening. We put the projector directly beneath the screen, but Luke and I figured out later that night that Jeff was basically sitting in a null the entire evening. The cap sounded about 1/2 as loud right there as we walked around the room after wrapping up the regular judging. counsil was taking his spl measurements from one seat over from the apparent null that Jeff was sitting in. I'd have to think the front four seat were more or less about equivalent because I've played around a lot with moving various subs around in my room, and those four seat stay pretty flat on the FR graphs when the sub is in the center like we tested, but I will also note that carp and previously Randy's seat as carp pointed out to me sounded more bassy than the primary audessey configuration seat which echaot was sitting in. (My Jamo D7sub thread has details on this testing with Luke's ominimic)

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post #108 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 01:54 PM
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I read somewhere that the two worst seats in a room were in the center of the room and against the wall.

Archaea, at what % is your berkline from the room's center. I know that you were restricted by the load bearing beam that is behind the couch.

I am curious if the nasty null that all the subs showed at the LP coincided with the 1/2 wavelength of where the couch was, being in the center of the room and all.
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post #109 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 01:59 PM
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Kudos to Archaea for all his effort! This is a good read for us noobies!
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post #110 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC Sphinx View Post

I read somewhere that the two worst seats in a room were in the center of the room and against the wall.

Archaea, at what % is your berkline from the room's center. I know that you were restricted by the load bearing beam that is behind the couch.

I am curious if the nasty null that all the subs showed at the LP coincided with the 1/2 wavelength of where the couch was, being in the center of the room and all.

I was thinking something similar, but even when the subs were closer to the corner at the beginning of the day when we were randomly feeding stuff to them and you walked around the room... it still didn't really impress all that much.

I do think Archaea should start by testing ideas like this though. At the very least feed a couple test signals and take readings at multiple positions and then move the sub elsewhere and repeat. Gotta start somewhere. (Reading his comments again, there's a good chance he's done this. Maybe not for max SPL, but for no peaks or nulls at the listening position.)
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post #111 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chirpie View Post

I was thinking something similar, but even when the subs were closer to the corner at the beginning of the day when we were randomly feeding stuff to them and you walked around the room... it still didn't really impress all that much.

I do think Archaea should start by testing ideas like this though. At the very least feed a couple test signals and take readings at multiple positions and then move the sub elsewhere and repeat. Gotta start somewhere. (Reading his comments again, there's a good chance he's done this. Maybe not for max SPL, but for no peaks or nulls at the listening position.)


Yeah Luke and I did it a month or so back using his omnimic. The FR was pretty decent (for my room anyway) in those first four leather seats. We didn't measure behind those seats next to the load bearing pole, where the second row of seating was established --- so if that was an even bigger null than the null that occurs everywhere else in my room --- I apologize to those who sat there.

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post #112 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 03:22 PM
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It would be interesting to measure the FR where the SPL readings were taken to see if it is drastically different then the 4 main seats. Looking at the following overlays, below 80hz each sub shows about the same differences in response between seats. Above 80hz, it's hard to follow the individual traces, but the subs are completely different.

I completely understand why it wasn't done, but it also would have been interesting to see the FR of each sub at increasing levels until the sub started to compress or distort.

Here are overlays of all the subs at each seat. Go to the gallery to see overlays of each sub at all the seats.
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post #113 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 04:16 PM
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Looks like a fun day guys! Thats awesome that Jeff made it out there!

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #114 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

Music

Epik - The Epik, like the Hsu and Seaton, has a bottomless driver design. The Epik never made a bad sound or went into distortion from what I could tell. ...

Hsu - The Hsu, like the Seaton and Epik, has a bottomless driver design.

Hi counsil,

For the sake of a bit less confusion, I would recommend using the term "soft overload" or "soft bottom." Modern, high excursion drivers have many more possible modes of overload and noises than we might have seen in past designs. When someone says "bottomless," I and many others associate this to the act of the voice coil former abruptly striking the back plate of the woofer. Some noises heard are from amplifier clipping, some from from surrounds or spiders deforming, some from drivers rocking (tipping on their axis while moving in and out) and of course hard bottoming can certainly happen. While it isn't terribly important for an enthusiast to know the exact cause of a subwoofer emitting sounds of distress, but knowing that it can be from many possible factors will help reduce confusion or incorrect conclusions.

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post #115 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 05:20 PM
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What a great day of camaraderie and inquisitiveness for the sake of our hobby. Thouroughly enjoyed following this thread. Now it's time to add up the subs that haven't been demoed and plan similar events on the East & West coasts and one around the Gulf. Any volunteers?

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post #116 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Hi counsil,

For the sake of a bit less confusion, I would recommend using the term "soft overload" or "soft bottom." Modern, high excursion drivers have many more possible modes of overload and noises than we might have seen in past designs. When someone says "bottomless," I and many others associate this to the act of the voice coil former abruptly striking the back plate of the woofer. Some noises heard are from amplifier clipping, some from from surrounds or spiders deforming, some from drivers rocking (tipping on their axis while moving in and out) and of course hard bottoming can certainly happen. While it isn't terribly important for an enthusiast to know the exact cause of a subwoofer emitting sounds of distress, but knowing that it can be from many possible factors will help reduce confusion or incorrect conclusions.

Thanks for this Mark, I often times say "bottomless" or "driver bottomed out" because I don't know enough about driver design myself. I always liked a "soft bottom" anyways so think I will stick with that!
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post #117 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

Counsil - you posted "indoor ground plane" ... can you explain how you took these? Was it simply putting the mic on the ground 1M from the cone or something? The EPIK and HSU have odd FR's in that from 20hz to about 40 (before the huge dip/null) the results are 15db down from what they are from 60hz to 100ish, whereas the SVS, Seaton and JTR don't appear to vary as bady unless I'm reading this incorrectly.

I hadn't ever taken ground plane measurements before so I asked Jeff for a little help. He had me lay my mic on a small piece of foam which raised my mic ~1/2 inch off the tile floor and kept the mic straight and in place.

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post #118 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otk View Post

it's a shame the trinity couldn't make it

agreed.

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post #119 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Do you mean the Cap, the Submersive, or both the Cap and Submersive? I was referring to the Cap.

thanks,
James

Actually Jeff increased the gain on both which wasn't done on any of the subs before it. Jeff didn't want to bombard us with highs.

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post #120 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Was any EQ used to flatten out the frequencies for each sub.

There was no EQ used. There simply wasn't time although an Antimode would have been nice.

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