2011 Kansas City Subwoofer Meet Results - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Also, that Yamaha should be able to play considerably louder than every other sub that was in the house. It was clearly not pushed to it's real max output.

Actually all of the subs were pushed to their limits at one time or another. The max SPL readings that I denoted on the chart are pretty much accurate. Some of the numbers could have been a little higher (with more distortion/compression), others could have been lower (with less distortion/compression). If it makes everyone happy I can add 8 or 10 dBs to all of the numbers. It's all relative. I took all the readings from the same spot with my calibrated Galaxy CM140. It was set on C and fast.

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post #122 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by otk View Post

so was there a jam session with all the subs going at once ?

No and I really wanted to do something like that but there just wasn't time. I was spent by the end of the meet.

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post #123 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Well, we of course do not yet have the official results, but it appears one and two will go how pretty much how I anticipated:

The Seaton's the overall top performer.

The Cap is the HT's dream: an absurdly tactile, ultra-high output sub. The fact that a few have already rated it closely behind the Submersive in regards to music speaks to its overall prowess as well, IMO.

It's too bad the Yammy doesn't stretch a bit lower, but afterall, that's not really its purpose to begin with.

James

agreed.

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post #124 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

What do you think should have been done to accurately compare the SPL data? I'm not sure what type of calibration could have been done since all of the subs have different output capabilities for each scene. All of the subs were placed in the same location and the volume was turned up as high as the sub's owner was comfortable with. In some cases the scene was watched multiple times either lowering the volume until distortion was no longer heard or higher if no distortion was heard the first time. I'm sure if they had the time to run more passes of the scenes, some of the numbers could have been higher and some should be lower, but short of running waterfalls for every scene and comparing them to the electrical output of the scene, I don't know what else could have been done.

-Mike

Agreed. I don't know what else we could have done other than play each scene at -25 MV and replay the scenes over and over after increasing the volume by 1 or 2 dB.

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post #125 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

One of the other questions I have is related to this. Some of the measurements were almost flat out to 200hz while others dropped off. Were the measurements taken with the sub plus the mains or the sub alone?

-Mike

The mains were most definitely NOT in any of the measurements!!!

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post #126 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Could you post the response curves from where the SPL meter was placed? These could even be overlaid in 1-2 graphs.

Did ironhead1230's graphs on page 4 get you what you wanted? Again, this is exactly why I uploaded the raw REW measurement files.

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post #127 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Hi counsil,

For the sake of a bit less confusion, I would recommend using the term "soft overload" or "soft bottom."

That's what happens when you use a term you've heard only a few times without knowing the exact meaning of it. I will update my posts to remove 'bottomless' with 'soft overload'.

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post #128 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

Did ironhead1230's graphs on page 4 get you what you wanted? Again, this is exactly why I uploaded the raw REW measurement files.

Which seat was the max SPL's taken from?

 

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post #129 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

Thanks for this Mark, I often times say "bottomless" or "driver bottomed out" because I don't know enough about driver design myself.

Not to point fingers but I got the term "bottomless" from you!

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I always liked a "soft bottom" anyways so think I will stick with that!

QFT

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post #130 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by pbc View Post

Which seat was the max SPL's taken from?

Behind the main listening position. Probably one of the many reasons why the numbers were so low.

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post #131 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post


Which seat was the max SPL's taken from?

Back row, right of center. Bah, someone beat me to it.
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post #132 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 06:51 PM
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Okay, now that I have a little time...

Was anyone else surprised by how well the original SVS PB-12 Plus performed compared to the Epik, Hsu, SubMersive, and Cap? I realize it bottomed a couple of times because we were pressed for time, but the SVS really put out some impressive SPLs and sound quality compared to the others (and for it being a 5 year old design).

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post #133 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

Okay, now that I have a little time...

Was anyone else surprised by how well the original SVS PB-12 Plus performed compared to the Epik, Hsu, SubMersive, and Cap? I realize it bottomed a couple of times because we were pressed for time, but the SVS really put out some impressive SPLs and sound quality compared to the others (and for it being a 5 year old design).

Isn't the SVS about $1200+ brand new compared to EPIK @ $800 and HSU @ $1000?
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post #134 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 06:54 PM
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And to be fair, SVS has since made several amp improvements, most especially with the new Sledge amp, that helps minimize the drivers from going into distress.

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post #135 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by counsil View Post

And to be fair, SVS has since made several amp improvements, most especially with the new Sledge amp, that helps minimize the drivers from 'bottoming' out.

Is the 'bottoming' out the subwoofer hitting its limits or the amplifier?
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post #136 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by 96redformula View Post

Isn't the SVS about $1200+ brand new compared to EPIK @ $800 and HSU @ $1000?

I couldn't tell you. This model has been discontinued for quite some time.

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post #137 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by 96redformula View Post

Is the 'bottoming' out the subwoofer hitting its limits or the amplifier?

I updated my post to read "going into distress" to mask my lack of knowledge...

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post #138 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Now how did you know I was talking about you?

You are looking good, Randy!

So Curtis--what was the date again for the "Manhattan Beach Subwoofer Meet?"

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post #139 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 07:05 PM
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As I think Mark explained quite well, these designs are not usually "bottoming out" in the traditional sense (vc former striking the back plate) but can (and do) run into trouble in other regards...I believe Jeff brought up a point of reaching a limit with the Cap for instance when it begins to get a bit non linear and the former 'scrapes' the pole and creates "distortion" or abnormal noise.

As others have said, it's a bit daft to think even these behemoths are 100% immune to abuse.

James

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post #140 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

Actually all of the subs were pushed to their limits at one time or another. The max SPL readings that I denoted on the chart are pretty much accurate. Some of the numbers could have been a little higher (with more distortion/compression), others could have been lower (with less distortion/compression). If it makes everyone happy I can add 8 or 10 dBs to all of the numbers. It's all relative. I took all the readings from the same spot with my calibrated Galaxy CM140. It was set on C and fast.

Looking at the Captivator based on those mediocre numbers, it makes me very skeptical about the 4000 watt power rating of the amp. Until tried and true third-party testing is done to confirm the output of a powered Captivator, I'd have to suggest that potential buyers bypass the powered version of the sub and instead choose the unpowered one with a good external amp. Judging by the measured numbers, in my opinion the 4000watt amp (or at least that particular example of it) is not delivering the goods.
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post #141 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 07:28 PM
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I dunno, I think it's really hard to say at this point, when you consider the considerably lower than normal spl's of the other big-hitters in the line up, including the SVS and the Submersive. Seems to me the Cap could/should produce more SPL with 1000 watts, never mind 4k.

FWIW, I think at one time or another I read that Seaton assured that he was familiar with the amp and that its specs were legit, but I don't want to put words in his mouth. Mark?

As folks who were there mentioned, it's really appearing to me that this room was somewhat of a sub coffin, lol.

And this is all coming from a guy with a passive cap on the way, btw!

James

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post #142 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 07:43 PM
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The numbers on the Captivator don't paint the picture at all. Archaea's room is just a bass eater, with walls flexing... I am going to go over to Carp's sometime soon. I might take a 15H with me (got the 2nd today!) and do a comparison with it there. I have taken it there before and it performed great in his space, and imagine the cap with his amp will crush it.

I updated my post for terminology clarification.

I agree with Counsil on the SVS. I was very impressed with its performance. In fact I am going to keep an eye open for a deal on a pc13 ultra for behind the living room tv (across a corner beside fireplace). A used one went in Raytown for like $700-$800 recently, and I am now disappointed I didn't jump on it.
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post #143 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 07:55 PM
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Just so everyone knows, I have asked Randy if would be willing to have another 'mini' shootout between one of my PB13 Ultras and his SubMersive. I have also asked Ed Mullen if he would be willing to ship me an updated Sledge amp for the comparison. As I mentioned at the meet, I would have brought a PB13U had I have known the PC13U wasn't going to be there.

What do you guys think. Is it even worth comparing the two?

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post #144 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 07:58 PM
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That room may be tough, but it didn't seem to eat the Submersive's output like it did the Captivator's. Why would the room hurt the output #'s of one sub more than another?
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post #145 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

That room may be tough, but it didn't seem to eat the Submersive's output like it did the Captivator's. Why would the room hurt the output #'s of one sub more than another?

I wish someone would enlighten me as well.

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post #146 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 08:06 PM
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Well, I can't say for sure about the submersive, but I would have thought it would have also been sig "better" than the 100-105dbs it posted in a room like that.

Doesn't it seem to anyone that any one of the big 3/4 in the group would hit 110+ on some of those samples in a typical room that size, at that distance?

Again mmike, I don't know, just speculating I guess.

I'm certain very soon we'll have firmer numbers from a powered Cap owner.

And to be clear, as I mentioned in the Cap thread, I personally couldn't justify doubling the price of my Cap for another 1-3dbs of output over my $400 Crown so I'm with ya whether it makes 4K or not.

James

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post #147 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 08:18 PM
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While I'm not wishing to cast doubt on the performance of a powered Captivator, the numbers put up in this comparison have to raise a question as to it's true output capabilites. I know first hand what a Cap/Behringer combo can do and it is nothing short of amazing. The powered Cap should handily exceed that, but now I can't help but be a skeptic. I'm afraid it puts the onus on Jeff to get the powered Cap tested by an independent third party. Keep in mind that we are not talking about an inexpensive product here. It is considerably more expensive than the Submersive. If it can't keep up in output, why should anyone buy one?
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post #148 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

That room may be tough, but it didn't seem to eat the Submersive's output like it did the Captivator's. Why would the room hurt the output #'s of one sub more than another?

My guess:
His room eats bass around ~20hz, maybe widely above and below (16hz shakes his screen wall something terrible. It is one of the toughest bass/acoustic spaces I have encountered (fireplace, open stairwell with not real door at top, not sturdiest of walls, not any absoption...)The submersive dug so much lower than the rest, it is possible that it extends beyond a room resonance? Once the walls start moving, they start eating. If volume turned up at room resonance, just as Jeff stated the wall moves more and acts like an out of phase speaker. This is like turning up the volume on two subs that are out of phase, nothing much happens. Also Counsil was right beside the rooms biggest null (center). I am not up to snuff of how exactly these nulls work at differing outputs, but is it a possiblity that the null expands in size when it has a huge amount of cancelation going on there?

I will update my findings and testings with omnimic over at Carp's when we get that all setup and going. His SMS is in the mail, and he is pretty busy this time of the year and I have been pretty busy myself. Might be before memorial day weekend, maybe not.
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post #149 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Well, I can't say for sure about the submersive, but I would have thought it would have also been sig "better" than the 100-105dbs it posted in a room like that.

Doesn't it seem to anyone that any one of the big 3/4 in the group would hit 110+ on some of those samples in a typical room that size, at that distance?

Again mmike, I don't know, just speculating I guess.

I'm certain very soon we'll have firmer numbers from a powered Cap owner.

And to be clear, as I mentioned in the Cap thread, I personally couldn't justify doubling the price of my Cap for another 1-3dbs of output over my $400 Crown so I'm with ya whether it makes 4K or not.

James

I'm a powered Cap owner and i hit 118db's in my room at a 13 feet distance!
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post #150 of 553 Old 05-16-2011, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sendtobrit View Post

I'm a powered Cap owner and i hit 118db's in my room at a 13 feet distance!

That seems about right.
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