Help! Sub choice for under $900: Rythmik vs Hsu vs Epik (yet again) - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 96 Old 05-25-2011, 05:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

After reading that the OP was looking at Hsu VTF-15 I didn't think the Rythmik FV-15 would be out of consideration. Between the two I'd go Rythmik.

VTF-15H was really my most cost-effective option for output + SQ, if none of the others would suffice.. although I would not be too happy abt the form factor About ported vs sealed, I could still go with ported if the SQ is pretty good - which seems to be the case for Hsu VTF3.3 and VTF-15H (although as per some, F15 is qualitatively better than VTF3.3 in SQ).

It seems, so far, there is nothing against F15 as far as my situation is concerned. Does anyone have any personal feedback on Empire (apart from the shootout post)?
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post #32 of 96 Old 05-25-2011, 06:04 PM
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easy solution....
Elemental Designs A7S-450 18" 1300 watt amp...165lbs beast $850.00 shipped to your door
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post #33 of 96 Old 05-25-2011, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

The FV-15 is $150 more than the F-15 in black oak, $170 more than the Hsu. Not too much when you look long term, I think it would best both of those. Music quality close to the F-15, with movie performance better than the Hsu, IMO, based on Audioholics.

It seems like F15 should be sufficient for my output needs, at least initially. If that's not the case and I have to consider VTF-15H, FV-15 would be a great alternative.
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post #34 of 96 Old 05-25-2011, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by amp2777 View Post

It seems like F15 should be sufficient for my output needs, at least initially. If that's not the case and I have to consider VTF-15H, FV-15 would be a great alternative.

um...again...why not an 18" driver with twice the power than a 15" driver at the same cost or more? I'm confused
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post #35 of 96 Old 05-25-2011, 06:34 PM
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although I would not be too happy abt the form factor

I think most are in agreement that you'll probably be happy with any of these choices, but it seems as if you're already concerned about having a sub with a massive footprint. You might want to take a closer look at the dimensions of all potential subs and envision how each one would look in your room. As much as I wanted the VTF-15 I felt it would be just too damn big for my room.

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post #36 of 96 Old 05-25-2011, 06:37 PM
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A link would help: http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_...roducts_id=640
In stock too :O . Well with the OP's budget.

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post #37 of 96 Old 05-25-2011, 07:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

um...again...why not an 18" driver with twice the power than a 15" driver at the same cost or more? I'm confused

At least from the limited reviews such as shootout post on this forum, it seems A7S-450 may not have great SQ compared to others I mentioned.. Again, it may not be correct assessment, but for now, it does help in limiting the choices..
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post #38 of 96 Old 05-25-2011, 07:30 PM
 
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I have to admit that the eD A7S-450 is one hell of a deal. The sub had a nice pro review, a bunch of happy owners, and they'll even do custom colors, right Pure Evil?
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post #39 of 96 Old 05-25-2011, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

I have to admit that the eD A7S-450 is one hell of a deal. The sub had a nice pro review, a bunch of happy owners, and they'll even do custom colors, right Pure Evil?

They'll do pretty much any finish you want, which is indeed very nice.

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post #40 of 96 Old 05-26-2011, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

I have to admit that the eD A7S-450 is one hell of a deal. The sub had a nice pro review, a bunch of happy owners, and they'll even do custom colors, right Pure Evil?

Yup! Well...I tried. Sometimes you just can't help some people see the forest through the trees. Ah well...



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post #41 of 96 Old 05-26-2011, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

I have to admit that the eD A7S-450 is one hell of a deal. The sub had a nice pro review, a bunch of happy owners, and they'll even do custom colors, right Pure Evil?

I can vouch for the SQ of the a7s-450 ....so does this reviewer....

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/s...oofers/a7s-450
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post #42 of 96 Old 05-26-2011, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

I can vouch for the SQ of the a7s-450 ....so does this reviewer....

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/s...oofers/a7s-450

Unfortunately, it looks like that review is the only one from that reviewer.

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post #43 of 96 Old 05-26-2011, 09:19 PM
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The problem is, is that every sub mentioned can be linked to at least one or more glowing reviews. The thing about the A7s-450 is that it was reviewed before the current crop of similar subs, most of the shoot outs that include the new guys and the A7s all say the other subs edge out the A7s in quality but the A7s is no slouch and is an SPL monster and a great value.

I dont disagree but if someone like the OP wants a more dynamic sub than I think the other non ED options will suffice.
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post #44 of 96 Old 05-27-2011, 05:45 AM
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every sub mentioned can be linked to at least one or more glowing reviews.

Fantastic. No argument there. They are all fantastic subs.

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most of the shoot outs that include the new guys and the A7s all say the other subs edge out the A7s in quality but the A7s is no slouch and is an SPL monster and a great value.

Since they did not FR match the subs, their SQ comparisons were largely influenced by the different FR responses each sub exhibited. So when the claim is made that one sub has a better SQ over the other, it's primarily because of the reviewers preference for the FR of that particular sub in that particular room, not necessarily it's SQ.

Here's an example that may make more sense: Blind fold the listener. Tell him that you're testing 5 different subs. Take 1 sub and hook it up to a 12 band sub EQ. Play the same song/movie 5 different times. Each time, adjust the FR bands slightly. At the end of the comparison, the listener will claim that the first time perhaps it sounded tighter, the second time perhaps it had great extension, the third time perhaps a lot of mid bass slam, etc. etc. At the end of it, the listener will pick a 'perceived sub' that had the best sound quality. They are really just picking the FR he preferred as set by the EQ.

Now, for the shootouts, there were a lot more variables they considered like output, transient response, etc. so the above example is not exactly the same. However, you can see how the different FRs could largely influence their preference for SQ. This is why it is important to FR match the subs to really make it an apples to apples comparison.

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I dont disagree but if someone like the OP wants a more dynamic sub than I think the other non ED options will suffice.

Not sure what you mean by dynamic.
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post #45 of 96 Old 05-27-2011, 06:12 AM
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Not sure what you mean by dynamic.

Something that is going to be great with both movies and music, the new rating system at audioholics and other places all include a dynamic category, when the A7s was reviews (2 or more years ago) that category was not included. I was open to any sub and ED was originally in my list of subs to consider but I have yet to read anything on here (except from current ED owners) that the A7s competes with these subs mentioned in anything other than SPL. Thats not to say it isnt a musical sub its just that those mentioned are a slight notch above it.

I dont have any experience with all these subs and I wish I could put them in the most ideal situation and listen to each one for a few hours. I dont know have that luxury and so I am trying to base my purchase off of others experience, both pro and peer. In the end I think whatever sub the OP or myself chooses will be great, its just getting yourself to believe you made the best possible choice for the most dynamic/versatile product.
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post #46 of 96 Old 05-27-2011, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by MasonS View Post

most of the shoot outs that include the new guys and the A7s all say the other subs edge out the A7s in quality but the A7s is no slouch and is an SPL monster and a great value.

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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Since they did not FR match the subs, their SQ comparisons were largely influenced by the different FR responses each sub exhibited. So when the claim is made that one sub has a better SQ over the other, it's primarily because of the reviewers preference for the FR of that particular sub in that particular room, not necessarily it's SQ.

Here's an example that may make more sense: Blind fold the listener. Tell him that you're testing 5 different subs. Take 1 sub and hook it up to a 12 band sub EQ. Play the same song/movie 5 different times. Each time, adjust the FR bands slightly. At the end of the comparison, the listener will claim that the first time perhaps it sounded tighter, the second time perhaps it had great extension, the third time perhaps a lot of mid bass slam, etc. etc. At the end of it, the listener will pick a 'perceived sub' that had the best sound quality. They are really just picking the FR he preferred as set by the EQ.

Now, for the shootouts, there were a lot more variables they considered like output, transient response, etc. so the above example is not exactly the same. However, you can see how the different FRs could largely influence their preference for SQ. This is why it is important to FR match the subs to really make it an apples to apples comparison.

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but I have yet to read anything on here (except from current ED owners) that the A7s competes with these subs mentioned in anything other than SPL. Thats not to say it isnt a musical sub its just that those mentioned are a slight notch above it.

LOL. Guess my education lesson didn't stick...I tried.
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post #47 of 96 Old 05-27-2011, 07:17 AM
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LOL. Guess my education lesson didn't stick...I tried.

No I enjoyed reading your response, its just you are clearly biased and there is nothing wrong with that. Everyone on here prefers one product over another but for someone who doesnt own any of them, they are looking for someone to help them out. They want help with what they are looking for, not what you are looking for.

I have read many of your posts and enjoyed them for what they are, just as I do for HSU owners and supporters and Epik owners and supporters. I also take each with a grain of salt.

I use all the info that I gather from owners like you here and that of professional reviews and use that to make my choice. Not one person or one review will sway me but if that is the concensus and something I read more often than not than you can see where I am going with this.
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post #48 of 96 Old 05-27-2011, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by MasonS View Post

No I enjoyed reading your response, its just you are clearly biased and there is nothing wrong with that. Everyone on here prefers one product over another but for someone who doesnt own any of them, they are looking for someone to help them out. They want help with what they are looking for, not what you are looking for.

I have read many of your posts and enjoyed them for what they are, just as I do for HSU owners and supporters and Epik owners and supporters. I also take each with a grain of salt.

I use all the info that I gather from owners like you here and that of professional reviews and use that to make my choice. Not one person or one review will sway me but if that is the concensus and something I read more often than not than you can see where I am going with this.

Understood.

I am biased because I own them, but just for the record, I've never said the a7s-450 is better than any of the others. I'm not qualified to make that statement.

However, my point is that it is an excellent option and IMO shouldn't be considered secondary from a SQ perspective based upon the results from the shootouts performed thus far.
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post #49 of 96 Old 05-27-2011, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Understood.

I am biased because I own them, but just for the record, I've never said the a7s-450 is better than any of the others. I'm not qualified to make that statement.

However, my point is that it is an excellent option and IMO shouldn't be considered secondary from a SQ perspective based upon the results from the shootouts performed thus far.

I agree and am glad we have an understanding.

Now only if I can find some nice people here in AZ who have the subs in question that would allow me to come over and listen to them
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post #50 of 96 Old 05-27-2011, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasonS View Post

The problem is, is that every sub mentioned can be linked to at least one or more glowing reviews. The thing about the A7s-450 is that it was reviewed before the current crop of similar subs, most of the shoot outs that include the new guys and the A7s all say the other subs edge out the A7s in quality but the A7s is no slouch and is an SPL monster and a great value.

I dont disagree but if someone like the OP wants a more dynamic sub than I think the other non ED options will suffice.

It's not necessarily a problem that there are many solid choices. I'd like to see more reviews of the ED, too, but the Aholics review is highly informative. The thing gets loud without compression (beyond what the tester could drive it to). That's good.

Being a sealed design, it has a 12 dB per octave rolloff that happens to start a little above 50 Hz. So if your room dimensions won't provide the conterbalancing room gain starting somewhere near 50 Hz, EQ will be needed. Not a big deal - - sealed subs that have a wider flat passband almost certainly have internal EQ to overcome the physical reality of the sealed box orientation. So you may need to add the relatively inexpensive and flexible ED EQ device to achieve flat in room response to lower frequencies.

What's not perfectly clear from the testing we've seen (ie Aholics) is how clean and how linear the ED will stay in the lower frequencies, once the EQ is added. Assuming you need to EQ up the first octave of rolloff, you're more than doubling the power required at 25 Hz versus what was used in the test, to get the device back to flat (anechoically). I'd take cautious heart from the wideapread love of these things from their owners. Cautious because I would not even trust my own repsponse to be more accurate than "better than what I have" because I am not fully familiar with the sound of a system that is flat to 20 Hz or below and has adequate dynamic capability for my listening levels. So whatever change I make, I can tell if it's better (I hope) but not whether something else might be mo betta.
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post #51 of 96 Old 05-27-2011, 10:37 AM
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What's not perfectly clear from the testing we've seen (ie Aholics) is how clean and how linear the ED will stay in the lower frequencies, once the EQ is added. Assuming you need to EQ up the first octave of rolloff, you're more than doubling the power required at 25 Hz versus what was used in the test, to get the device back to flat (anechoically). I'd take cautious heart from the wideapread love of these things from their owners. Cautious because I would not even trust my own repsponse to be more accurate than "better than what I have" because I am not fully familiar with the sound of a system that is flat to 20 Hz or below and has adequate dynamic capability for my listening levels. So whatever change I make, I can tell if it's better (I hope) but not whether something else might be mo betta.

I'm inclined to think that the a7s-450 would excel in this area (over and above its competition) based on the its ample headroom from the 18in driver and 1300W amp. As you use the EQ to level out the FR, because of its headroom, it would be able to maintain its output capabilities because it could still serve up the power requirements needed from the EQ adjustments.

Whereas other subs with less headroom, would drop output and cause earlier audible distortion and decreased SQ.

So, back to FR matching; assuming you FR match to a flat response via EQ, some subs will be more adversely affected in both output, extension and SQ based on its headroom. Those subs with more headroom could handle EQ better given a certain output, and therefore be able to maintain a flat response with deep extension at high output levels.

Since most owners will apply some sort of EQ to their sub (Audyssey, SMS-1, etc.) to smooth the response, the subs ability to handle EQ is a critical piece to the puzzle and often overlooked.

My reasoning behind this is somewhat anecdotal, but I've experienced this with the a7s-450; During the Hulk sound cannon scene, I was able to hit 118db at my LP without any EQ. I then engaged Audyssey (which starts boosting at 16hz to a boost of +9db at 10hz) and remeasured my output. It was still 118db.

I just posted a thread about headroom/output to help flush my understanding of this (hopefully someone chimes in). It intuitively makes sense, just not sure of the science behind it. If you have any thoughts around this, please post it there as to not derail this thread further...
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post #52 of 96 Old 05-27-2011, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasonS View Post

Something that is going to be great with both movies and music, the new rating system at audioholics and other places all include a dynamic category, when the A7s was reviews (2 or more years ago) that category was not included. I was open to any sub and ED was originally in my list of subs to consider but I have yet to read anything on here (except from current ED owners) that the A7s competes with these subs mentioned in anything other than SPL. Thats not to say it isnt a musical sub its just that those mentioned are a slight notch above it.

I dont have any experience with all these subs and I wish I could put them in the most ideal situation and listen to each one for a few hours. I dont know have that luxury and so I am trying to base my purchase off of others experience, both pro and peer. In the end I think whatever sub the OP or myself chooses will be great, its just getting yourself to believe you made the best possible choice for the most dynamic/versatile product.

Well my personal experience has always been that a sealed designed sub is much more musical than porter for a few reasons most of which being that it is VERY quick. Other than going with a servo design (which I'm not sure is 100% necessary) I will tell you that the A7S-450 with an 18" driver is much more musical than you might think due to how quick it is for such a large driver.

I listen to everything from rock to rap to classical and I'll tell you (I've owned MANY subs over the years) it is by far and away the best sub/$$$ I've ever owned or heard. The A7S-450 is bested by for example a tight sealed supercube for quickness but no where near the impact. The Submersive is amazing however, you can get almost 3 x A7S-450's for teh same price so that's tough to swallow.

I'm sure you'll be happy with whatever you get. I was only trying to help
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post #53 of 96 Old 05-27-2011, 01:58 PM
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Just to add to this so you know that I have in fact tried TONS of subs...here's a short list of subs I have either owned or heard:

MFW-15
HSU VTF3 MKII
Submersive
CHT 18.2
Def Tech TL1500
JBL
Paradigm Servo 15 v2
Paradigm PS1200


SO when I say the Elemental Designs A7S-450 is the best I've heard for the money....I truly mean it.
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post #54 of 96 Old 05-27-2011, 02:36 PM
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^ same room?

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post #55 of 96 Old 05-27-2011, 06:36 PM
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To the OP, I was in the same boat and decided on the Epik. I spoke with Chad today and he took my order for an Empire. Now the wait begins!
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post #56 of 96 Old 05-27-2011, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

Just to add to this so you know that I have in fact tried TONS of subs...here's a short list of subs I have either owned or heard:

MFW-15
HSU VTF3 MKII
Submersive
CHT 18.2
Def Tech TL1500
JBL
Paradigm Servo 15 v2
Paradigm PS1200


SO when I say the Elemental Designs A7S-450 is the best I've heard for the money....I truly mean it.

We know Michael Duxter, you have heard every sub. ED is the best for the money. But, that doesn't mean it is the best. I'd put a F15 or F15HP up against your ED and maybe to some people the difference in performance(whatever that difference is) is worth the extra money. "For the money" is only key if you are trying to make "bang for buck" which has nothing to do with "A" is better than "B".
When did you hear a CHT 18.2? I'm surprised you traded a Submersive in for an ED...unless you heard someone else's sub.

Lets not forget that if you want anything other than a truck bed liner finish... you have to pay more, which puts you right in line with the brands that compete with it on performance and price. That knocks a little hold in your "bang for buck" argument. I don't doubt that it may be the best sub you have heard at its price point. BUT, there are a lot of good subs missing from that list of yours.

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post #57 of 96 Old 05-27-2011, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

Just to add to this so you know that I have in fact tried TONS of subs...here's a short list of subs I have either owned or heard:

MFW-15
HSU VTF3 MKII
Submersive
CHT 18.2
Def Tech TL1500
JBL
Paradigm Servo 15 v2
Paradigm PS1200


SO when I say the Elemental Designs A7S-450 is the best I've heard for the money....I truly mean it.

Unless you compared these in the same room, identically placed and level matched, your comparison isn't valid. I bet a blind test of all these subs would upend your opinion.

Any in room measurements of the A7S-450 to show us? Your space is absolutely huge, it would be nice to put some numbers to your subjective impressions. As fine as the A7S-450 is, it is hard to imagine that any one sub could do that room justice.

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post #58 of 96 Old 05-27-2011, 08:07 PM
 
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This recently posted picture of a stock A7S-450 looks pretty nice to me! http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/t...o/IMG_9573.jpg

No truck bedliner there, just a nicely finished sub, recessed driver, powerful amp, and sweet price!

If you need two, they are even less!
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post #59 of 96 Old 05-27-2011, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

easy solution....
Elemental Designs A7S-450 165lbs beast

Where did this figure come from? Seems like you've added at least 35 lbs. Info I get says 140lbs. shipped.

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post #60 of 96 Old 05-27-2011, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

This recently posted picture of a stock A7S-450 looks pretty nice to me! http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/t...o/IMG_9573.jpg

No truck bedliner there, just a nicely finished sub, recessed driver, powerful amp, and sweet price!

If you need two, they are even less!

uhhhhh....how do you figure that isn't a truck bed liner finish? It looks exactly like truck bed lining. My point is...if you want a nice finish...the sub costs just as much as the competitors. I'm a little tired of the bang for buck argument. It isn't any cheaper unless you get that ugly matte finish. Yes Purevils subs look nice. They cost just as much as the competitors sub.
I'm not saying that it isn't a good sub. Let's stop pretending they are this huge bargain and you're saving sooooo much money. Lots of manufactures give you price breaks when you buy multiples. You two make me feel like I've taken crazy pills.

Panasonic P60ST50-Yamaha RX-V467 receiver-Sony PS3-Velodyne SMS-1-Canton 430 mains, 455 center and 402 surrounds-Rythmik FV15HP subwoofer- Pro-ject Debut III turntable- I also have a pair of Mark K's DIY design, the ER18DXT's
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