Audyssey MultEQ XT lowered my SVS PB13-Ultra LFE level to -12. - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 22 Old 06-05-2011, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Archaea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 5,781
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 257 Post(s)
Liked: 550
Obviously I need drop the gain from 1/2 to whatever it ends up being on the plate amps to get Audyssey closer to 0 on the LFE level calibration. What do you guys shoot for?

I have two PB13-Ultras Y split from one subwoofer out. Gains are set to 1/2 on both subs. They are placed against my front wall using 15hz tune with one plug. With one sub on sub1 and the second sub on sub2 they were both calibrated to -9. With both hooked up on the same y split signal they were set to -12 after Audyssey calibration. I always like the sound +3 to +6 dB higher than Audyssey ends up calibrating it i've noted. I am just curious if having it too high or too low in relation to 0 on the LFE channel changes anything in relation to dynamic contrast on the sub signal?

I have an Onkyo TX-NR1007.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout
My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint
Archaea is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 22 Old 06-05-2011, 02:24 PM
Member
 
96redformula's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 161
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Obviously I need drop the gain from 1/2 to whatever it ends up being on the plate amps to get Audyssey closer to 0 on the LFE level calibration. What do you guys shoot for?

I have two PB13-Ultras Y split from one subwoofer out. Gains are set to 1/2 on both subs. They are placed against my front wall using 15hz tune with one plug. With one sub on sub1 and the second sub on sub2 they were both calibrated to -9. With both hooked up on the same y split signal they were set to -12 after Audyssey calibration. I always like the sound +3 to +6 dB higher than Audyssey ends up calibrating it i've noted. I am just curious if having it too high or too low in relation to 0 on the LFE channel changes anything in relation to dynamic contrast on the sub signal?

I have an Onkyo TX-NR1007.

Don't you have a sound meter Archaea to double check it? My RS meter with corrections was spot on with the audyssey calibration.

From what I have seem in the audyssey thread you should set the gain more or less so audyssey puts them from -3 to 0, then you can give them as much more gain as you would like using the receiver settings channel levels.

I originally had my Rythmik @ about 11 o'clock on the gain which resulted in audyssey setting the sub to -10.0. I lowered the gain to about 9 o'clock and audyssey set sub gain to -4.5, which was perfectly fine for me. You can run REW software from your computer you had with a microphone and check your EQ as well.

None of this should be new to you, you had the shootout for goodness sakes .
96redformula is offline  
post #3 of 22 Old 06-05-2011, 02:38 PM
Advanced Member
 
skally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 895
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
I am not as lucky as you to have dual SVS Ultra13's but I do have dual subwoofer set up. I have the Onkyo 808 so the set up should be around the same. I dont have a Y spliter as I have them both in each out's for the subs.

THe best way I have found for my set up as each set up is differnt I know but never the less it worked for my situation. I had one sub off as I ran the Aud. set up, I set the front sub to 75-77hrtz then ran the aud. set up. THen I turnrd off the fron sub, set the rear (turned on that is) to 75-77hrtz or at least as close as I could get it anyhow... then ran another Aud. set up. If I remeber right, the Aud. wanted to set my subs at around the -9 -8 mark as I have the gain set at around the 10"o clock mark. I went into the speaker setting at set them up to -3 and locked it in. If I need to lower the setting or up it I just use the GUI setting on the remote to adjust it for me.
skally is offline  
post #4 of 22 Old 06-05-2011, 03:02 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kal Rubinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC + Connecticut
Posts: 28,416
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked: 122
The -12db result is a suggestion that you should turn both subs down a bit before (re-)running Audyssey since that is the limit of Audyssey's adjustment range. So, set them both at around 1/3 or 1/4 and see what you get.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

Kal Rubinson is online now  
post #5 of 22 Old 06-05-2011, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Archaea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 5,781
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 257 Post(s)
Liked: 550
Quote:
Originally Posted by 96redformula View Post

None of this should be new to you, you had the shootout for goodness sakes .

Let's be frank -- I hosted the sub shootout. I never claimed to have overwhelming knowledge , just the one who really wanted to hear some high class subs enough to get it organized!

I haven't learned REW yet, but plan to. I've downloaded it, but not played with it quite yet. But I'm not trying to match the subs to each other as counsil already did that with his SPL meter. It's just odd, cause I've never had a set of subs calibrate themselves to -12 at 1/2 gain before.

I'll get the REW software up and lower the amp gain a bit. I've got the receiver's audyssey mic I can use with REW in the absence of owning a SPL meter. Never really had much call for a SPL meter before - just used my ears, which ultimately are the final judge!

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout
My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint
Archaea is online now  
post #6 of 22 Old 06-05-2011, 04:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fookoo_2010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,737
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I always like the sound +3 to +6 dB higher than Audyssey ends up calibrating it i've noted. I am just curious if having it too high or too low in relation to 0 on the LFE channel changes anything in relation to dynamic contrast on the sub signal?

It really shouldn't affect Audyssey. Simply decide for yourself and do it by ear and choose what sounds best to you.
fookoo_2010 is offline  
post #7 of 22 Old 06-05-2011, 05:36 PM
Senior Member
 
ironhead1230's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 428
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 46
I don't know if it is an issue with the ultra's, but in some cases with a large positive trim value in the AVR, some subs can have the input signal clip at the plate amp. Most suggestions I have seen is to adjust the gain on the sub so Audyssey sets the trim at 0 or below. If you are going to increase the trim after Audyssey, I would shoot for the final setting after your increase to be about 0.

-Mike
ironhead1230 is offline  
post #8 of 22 Old 06-05-2011, 05:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
hometheatergeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 2,322
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 31
You have to remember Archaea you now have very powerful Dual subs so it is not unusual to lower the sub volume to less then 1/2 way. All four of my subs are at 10:00 or lower since combine together they all contribute to the overall output. It's a good thing to have so much headroom.

Hometheatergeek

aka AL
----------
My Current System
hometheatergeek is offline  
post #9 of 22 Old 06-05-2011, 06:21 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
counsil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kansas City, Missouri
Posts: 1,979
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Hey Archaea,

Are you running your Yamaha sub with the SVS's? I'm curious because I thought your Onkyo had dual sub outputs.

If you're running your Yamaha with the Ultras I'd high pass the Yamaha at 40 Hz or so and run it off one of your sub outputs. Then run the Ultras off the other sub output. After running Audyssey I'd increase the gain on the Ultras, but increase the gain on the Yamaha a tad more... something like 4-6dB and 6-9dB respectively. That should give you the mid-bass punch we all like for music, as well as, hopefully take some of the load off the Ultras.

I'd also aim at getting Audyssey to set your sub trims to -8 or so.

Just some random thoughts.

Never argue with an idiot; they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Counsil Basement HT
counsil is offline  
post #10 of 22 Old 06-05-2011, 07:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
stgdz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: MNsnowta in april :(
Posts: 2,188
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
So what do you think of your subs now that audyssey set them so low?
stgdz is offline  
post #11 of 22 Old 06-05-2011, 07:36 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Archaea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 5,781
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 257 Post(s)
Liked: 550
Quote:
Originally Posted by stgdz View Post

So what do you think of your subs now that audyssey set them so low?



Not so hot about what audyssey did to them. Basically tried to turn them off! My room's enchanted - it doesn't like bass!

Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

Hey Archaea,

Are you running your Yamaha sub with the SVS's? I'm curious because I thought your Onkyo had dual sub outputs.

If you're running your Yamaha with the Ultras I'd high pass the Yamaha at 40 Hz or so and run it off one of your sub outputs. Then run the Ultras off the other sub output. After running Audyssey I'd increase the gain on the Ultras, but increase the gain on the Yamaha a tad more... something like 4-6dB and 6-9dB respectively. That should give you the mid-bass punch we all like for music, as well as, hopefully take some of the load off the Ultras.

I'd also aim at getting Audyssey to set your sub trims to -8 or so.

Just some random thoughts.


counsil,

Almost to the letter what I've been trying to do! Looks like we have similar thoughts. I was using a 50hz high cut on the yamaha (sub2) because the American DJ is either a 30 or a 50 (no 40). I use the built in crossover on the SVS to cut them off at 80hz (sub1 y split to both SVS). Receiver is set to the max of 120hz crossover for both sub outs. Sound is the best combination I've heard so far.

Still tweaking. When do you want to come by and hear them/watch a movie :P

To your recommendation - here is my thread earlier this afternoon -where I was trying the same!
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post20529157


BTW - I understand why you added the empires for midbass now. To work towards the best of both worlds! I love the SVS down low - they offer what no other sub I've ever owned offers down low, but I love music too and unless I reconfigure them all the time they aren't the end all be all for music! Thankfully -- the combination I'm rocking now sounds awesome!

I've been playing with REW a bit, pretty cool freeware!

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout
My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint
Archaea is online now  
post #12 of 22 Old 06-05-2011, 09:17 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
counsil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kansas City, Missouri
Posts: 1,979
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Without a doubt I think you should keep the Yamaha.

I also really like the look of the Yamaha in your room. You have a relatively large HT; besides you need something for your center to sit on anyway!

I'd like to come over soon to take another listen. Most especially now that you have everything integrated.

Let me know...

Never argue with an idiot; they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Counsil Basement HT
counsil is offline  
post #13 of 22 Old 06-05-2011, 11:36 PM
Advanced Member
 
UofAZ1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 712
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 50
I felt the same way when Audyssey set my Onkyo 805sub level to -15 (lowest it would go)it also said my sub was 30 feet away when it fact it was sitting right next to me. So I left it this way to test how it sounded and what surprised me is the settings were perfect. Originally I had my SVS set way to hot and it was actually hindering the sound quality without me knowing it. At the time I thought bass should be shake you to your core kinda loud. It wasnt till Audyssey properly set the bass levels that I found you didnt need a preponderous amount of bass, and that bass should be subtle and heard only when needed.

My system has four mid bass subs and one SVS for lower end bass only, when properly calibrated via Audyssey and a sound meter, you can get tight clear and menacing bass only when needed and not overwhelming bass all the time. Room acoustics also help in taming overabundance. I use Audyssey as an assistance, my sound meter to fine tune and my ears to be the final judge.
UofAZ1 is offline  
post #14 of 22 Old 06-05-2011, 11:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Luke Kamp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 1,140
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 97
I think getting REW up and running would be of great benefit to you. I am not up to snuff on it, but I don't think you can use your audyssey mic for it? I think those are each calibrated for each individual receiver and so not to sure on how accurate it would be. That way you can test out each speaker individually to adjust crossovers optimally at desired playback levels, check placements of subwoofers, distortion levels,... all that good stuff that takes hours and hours of work to get it just right.

The thing with the audyssey receivers that ping the subs individually, is that it doesn't measure how they work together to check their interaction between them. I could see this having the same affect that we find when it does the pinging of speakers and subwoofers and doesn't get a perfect phase match and we find a dip at the crossover that needs to be fixed by adjusting the distance of the sub. One of the audioholics articles found this problem when using multiple subs with his setup. The subwoofers are now pinged together and has fixed this issue with xt32 and their standalone unit. If you moved the right sub a bit out of the corner so the two subs are equal distance from the center of your 4 seats, I would y-split them so they are eq'd together and would have same arrival times.

I am afraid if you send the yamaha back, you will regret it and once again want to buy subwoofers in 6 months to get back what you know you once had and enjoyed. Although that yamaha is great for the price, there are better pro-subs that maybe you would want to get with a heftier amp next year or something (or build a wall, lol).

Audyssey sets up bass levels for reference, not for preference. You like many here enjoy inflated bass levels, and maybe not even linear playback with music with an emphasis on midbass. After thinking about it after getting home from your place, a lot of your issues may be springing from the room treatment/lack there of. Your mains really take over when turned up as you have so much highs bouncing around your room. If you got more control over your treble, the bass won't be fighting it so much.

I am going to have time to do some testing at my place on Tuesday evening so I can put up some info about what I am enjoying for bass at my place with the HSU's. I plan on getting some of the dirty work out of the way before, but you guys are welcome to come over for a listen at ~6:30 or 7:00. I plan on starting my own thread with multiple graphs, pictures of driver, amp, box, theater setup, basement floorplan... and it would be cool if you guys posted some impressions as well. Let me know if any of you guys are interested.
Luke Kamp is offline  
post #15 of 22 Old 06-06-2011, 05:16 AM
AVS Special Member
 
thehun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Wine country CA
Posts: 7,242
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Obviously I need drop the gain from 1/2 to whatever it ends up being on the plate amps to get Audyssey closer to 0 on the LFE level calibration. What do you guys shoot for?

I have two PB13-Ultras Y split from one subwoofer out. Gains are set to 1/2 on both subs. They are placed against my front wall using 15hz tune with one plug. With one sub on sub1 and the second sub on sub2 they were both calibrated to -9. With both hooked up on the same y split signal they were set to -12 after Audyssey calibration. I always like the sound +3 to +6 dB higher than Audyssey ends up calibrating it i've noted. I am just curious if having it too high or too low in relation to 0 on the LFE channel changes anything in relation to dynamic contrast on the sub signal?

I have an Onkyo TX-NR1007.
Yeah, changing more then 3db up or down after the Audyssey's calibration will defeat the EQ settings. Kal is right, just lower the gain on your sub,redo the calibration and you're in business.

The Hun
thehun is offline  
post #16 of 22 Old 06-06-2011, 05:21 AM
AVS Special Member
 
thehun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Wine country CA
Posts: 7,242
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post
I don't know if it is an issue with the ultra's, but in some cases with a large positive trim value in the AVR, some subs can have the input signal clip at the plate amp. Most suggestions I have seen is to adjust the gain on the sub so Audyssey sets the trim at 0 or below. If you are going to increase the trim after Audyssey, I would shoot for the final setting after your increase to be about 0.

-Mike
The clipping is is in the AVR some amp will trigger a shutdown or heavy limiting when encounter with that . There is no reason to set the "SW" output trim above 0db especially with consumer grade amps built into powered subs.

The Hun
thehun is offline  
post #17 of 22 Old 06-06-2011, 05:44 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
craig john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 10,285
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked: 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun View Post
Yeah, changing more then 3db up or down after the Audyssey's calibration will defeat the EQ settings.
I don't believe this is the case. I think the filters are still set no matter what the levels are set at. Where did you hear that changing levels defeats the filters?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun View Post
Kal is right, just lower the gain on your sub,redo the calibration and you're in business.
This is absolutely correct.

Craig

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

My System

craig john is offline  
post #18 of 22 Old 06-06-2011, 08:25 AM
Senior Member
 
sickboy013's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 238
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
As long as it's not maxing out at the low end of the spectrum on your receiver then you are fine. On my Onkyo the lowest is -15 on the sub level and I have it set to -11 for TV and I boost it to -8 for movies. The gain on my sub is at 50%. Either way you do it, by lowering the gain on the sub and boosting on the receiver, or raising the gain on the sub and lowering the level on the receiver it will achieve the same results. YMMV.

sickboy013 is offline  
post #19 of 22 Old 06-06-2011, 09:56 AM
AVS Special Member
 
thehun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Wine country CA
Posts: 7,242
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I don't believe this is the case. I think the filters are still set no matter what the levels are set at. Where did you hear that changing levels defeats the filters?




Craig


The official Audyssey thread.

The Hun
thehun is offline  
post #20 of 22 Old 06-06-2011, 03:36 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
craig john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 10,285
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked: 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun View Post
The official Audyssey thread.
I follow that thread too, but I don't remember this being discussed. In the Audyssey Setup Guide, there is a note about adjusting trim levels. It states that changing the trims changes the Reference Level setting from "0". However, it doesn't state *anything* about +/-3 dB changes defeating the filters:

Quote:
Note 3 - Trim Level Settings
Before adjusting the trim settings, please understand that producing a calibrated setting other than 75 dB Sound Pressure Level (SPL) results in reference level being achieved with the master volume set to something other than 0. Further, Audyssey microphones are specified with a ± 2 dB maximum sensitivity tolerance. So, in the worst case scenario, the Audyssey microphone would be 2 dB off, which is more accurate than most popular consumer-level SPL meters. Consumer-level SPL meters are usually very inaccurate when measuring subwoofers. You have been warned.
I have measured my system with >3 dB changes to the trim levels of the subwoofers and the frequency response doesn't change... just the levels. Short of a direct quote from Chris K., I'm not buying that the filters are defeated.

Craig

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

My System

craig john is offline  
post #21 of 22 Old 06-06-2011, 03:50 PM
Member
 
96redformula's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 161
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I follow that thread too, but I don't remember this being discussed. In the Audyssey Setup Guide, there is a note about adjusting trim levels. It states that changing the trims changes the Reference Level setting from "0". However, it doesn't state *anything* about +/-3 dB changes defeating the filters:



I have measured my system with >3 dB changes to the trim levels of the subwoofers and the frequency response doesn't change... just the levels. Short of a direct quote from Chris K., I'm not buying that the filters are defeated.

Craig

I can also verify that on my Denon 1911 changing channel level for the subwoofer does not defeat the filters, REW confirms this.
96redformula is offline  
post #22 of 22 Old 06-07-2011, 01:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
stgdz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: MNsnowta in april :(
Posts: 2,188
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post



Not so hot about what audyssey did to them. Basically tried to turn them off!


Yeah I have a dual tht stack at the in laws. I have used the diy's test tone dvd to set my levels and this was the first time I let aidyssey do a calibration. After it was done my lcrs wete-10 the subs were -15 I believe, even after dropping the gain to a 1/3. I played some scenes and it really dropped the bass from what i am used too.

Anyways I haven't got the ps3 to work with the test tone dvd yet but I would like to know what happened.
stgdz is offline  
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off