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post #1 of 29 Old 06-15-2011, 05:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Tomorrow I'll be meeting fellow AVS members Sputter 1 and Pbc in a small GTG at Sputter's house. It sounds like we'll be mostly demoing movies and music...not sure what they have planned but it should make for a fun day. As most of you know Sputter is a proud owner of dual VTF15's and I'll be helping out Pbc with his pb13u and my little FW's AE12x build (in relative terms compared to the other 2...) will be coming along with me.....



Fwiw... I'm pretty sure we'll chart some numbers by taking measuements...I'm not sure by which methods but it should be a lots of fun...Svs & Hsu.. woo hoo...


Regards, Bill..

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post #2 of 29 Old 06-15-2011, 06:16 PM
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Looking forward to hearing the results!

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post #3 of 29 Old 06-16-2011, 08:12 PM - Thread Starter
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My morning started off by driving over to PBC's place and helping him load that massive pb13u into his SUV. We made the trek back to my place in order for me load my sub into Pbc's SUV(wow...what a relief it only weighed ~90lbs..... Moving on now...we arrived at Sputter's place ~10:00 am and the usual introductions were made before we had to unload the subs into Sputter media room which was in the basement. After all the intros we sat down and listened to Jim's setup (dual VTF's) they sounded as good as advertised. The demo disc which PBC brought along included (Pulse,Wotw,Open Range and Flight of the Phoenix just to name a few) they all sounded incredible some of those scenes were really intense..even in Jim's room which is freaking large we're talking about 4500^3.... Once we completed our demo we used the SMS-1 to help eq the other subs(couln't used the other software due to sound card issue) and we listened to each sub individually. I'll be totally honest here I was kind of underwhelmed with my sub but I wasn't suprised(considering how much smaller it was in comparison to the other 2) after heaing the Hsu's. We had slightly better results with the pb13 but something wasn't right. So....after some Spl reading we noticed the Hsu's were about 5-6 dbs hotter so after some re calibrations ...we audjusted all the subs to about 80db's(not..sure..) and we listened somewhere between -20..-5 on the AVR. You could noticed a slight difference switching from the 2 larger subs over to mine but going from the Hsu to the pb13 it was pretty close and to be fair the pb13 was tested in 16hz mode, same as the Hsu.. I believe. Jim may have snapped a couple of pics of the subs and I hope he finds his way into this thread...likewise for Pbc. But for me this day was about meeting new people and making new friends. Thanks to both Sputter( who was an excellent host) and Pbc for taking the time, doing all the driving and for sharing their knowledge with the likes of me....


Regards, Bill...

Old Indian proverb: We don't inherit the earth from our ancestors, but we borrow it from our children!

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post #4 of 29 Old 06-16-2011, 11:00 PM
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Sounded like fun. That HSU sounds like a solid sub for the money. I would love to hear one.
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post #5 of 29 Old 06-17-2011, 03:39 AM
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Are we comparing dual vtf15s to a single pb13 ultra or did they unplug one of the hsu?
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post #6 of 29 Old 06-17-2011, 04:41 AM
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Thanks for the post - it sounds like it was a good time! I hope this thread doesn't get crapped on for a lack of graphs.

Now, let's see some pics!
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post #7 of 29 Old 06-17-2011, 05:00 AM
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I enjoyed myself.

We started listening with my pair of HSUs, then we went to singles.
We calibrated each via my SMS and played various film and music clips over and over through each sub.

First off the SVS is one heavy bugger. Both the FW and SVS are nice looking subs and nicely finished. The SVS looks mean (shorter and broader than my 15H). The FW was a smaller box but I love the metal bar grill on it.

For the most part we played at -5., we didn't look for each subs limits. We just listened to the subs at normal decent level. (subjective lol)
No sub made any off-sounds during our listening. We detected a bit of flutter on my near field HSU during the lab scene in Pulse with our ears close up to the driver.
A couple times we'd be asking ourselves what do you think? followed by which sub are we listening to? lol that's kind of telling to me. Finding limits would have showed a different result.

The tactile feel was missing when running the subs far field compared to my two sub placement (one near and one far).
A couple things became clear, 4500 cu ft irregular is a large room for a single sub to pressurize. Pairs are needed at a minimum.
and
Multiple subs sure are easier to calibrate. J

We don't have any graphs to share as no REW graphs were taken so our thoughts are 100 percent subjective. This wasn't a shootout' but rather a chance to meet and listen to other subs.
Had we been able to run REW we would have expanded our listening levels I'm sure.

At our listening levels and the size of my room no sub was embarrassed . I'm sure I missed a couple things but that's it in a nutshell.
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post #8 of 29 Old 06-17-2011, 05:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sputter1 View Post

I enjoyed myself.

We started listening with my pair of HSUs, then we went to singles.
We calibrated each via my SMS and played various film and music clips over and over through each sub.

First off the SVS is one heavy bugger. Both the FW and SVS are nice looking subs and nicely finished. The SVS looks mean (shorter and broader than my 15H). The FW was a smaller box but I love the metal bar grill on it.

For the most part we played at -5., we didn’t look for each subs limits. We just listened to the subs at normal decent level. (subjective lol)
No sub made any off-sounds during our listening. We detected a bit of flutter on my near field HSU during the lab scene in Pulse with our ears close up to the driver.
A couple times we’d be asking ourselves “what do you think?” followed by “which sub are we listening to?” lol that’s kind of telling to me. Finding limits would have showed a different result.

The tactile feel was missing when running the subs far field compared to my two sub placement (one near and one far).
A couple things became clear, 4500 cu ft irregular is a large room for a single sub to pressurize. Pairs are needed at a minimum.
and
Multiple subs sure are easier to calibrate. J

We don’t have any graphs to share as no REW graphs were taken so our thoughts are 100 percent subjective. This wasn’t a ‘shootout’ but rather a chance to meet and listen to other subs.
Had we been able to run REW we would have expanded our listening levels I’m sure.

At our listening levels and the size of my room no sub was embarrassed . I’m sure I missed a couple things but that’s it in a nutshell.

Hi Jim....after leaving your place we drove back to PBC's and I had a listened to his dual opposed av15's and pb13u set up. Using the same demo disc...I now clearly understand what is meant by... "pressurizing a room"...with every beat of pulse or wotw it just seemed to swell until slamming into you. Like PBC mentioned it makes you kind of nauseous, but in a good way...

Thanks again...

Woo hoo just received word, my Sierra's are arriving today....

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post #9 of 29 Old 06-17-2011, 06:27 AM
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Sounds like yall had a great time

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post #10 of 29 Old 06-17-2011, 08:28 AM
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Hey guys,

Plan was to pull out REW and get the subs as level matched as possible from the start. Unfortunately my Mobile Pre USB external sound card seems to have fried somehow. Was using it 2 days ago and noticed something was off but thought it was just one of those weird REW things. But clearly there was an issue as the same odd sound was coming from the card when we got to Jims.

Jim was a great host and I enjoyed listening to his dual VTF-15hs, listening in his room it was quite clear he made a great decision going with dual large ported subs and with 1 placed nearfield it provided some great tactile feel.

The PB13 and FW subs while performing respectively just couldn't fill much pressure in that 4500cube room.

Unfortunately trying to level match/calibrate the several subs using the SMS-1 proved next to impossible and at one point I noticed the VTF (we were using one at that point) seem to be providing a much more visceral feel that the levels were clearly off . Sure enough just using the recieverr test tone showed that the VTF was some 5db hot compared to the other two. So we quickly increased the gains on the other two subs.

Overall I thought the VTF's were great subs for the $999 (in veneer) that they are offered for. The finish in particular looked spectactular (I think Jim mentioned it was Rosenut which was interesting as the Rosenut of my old PB13 was much redder/lighter). The paper/foam woofer just has a "mean" look to it with the size of the surround, and the amp was perfectly flush with the cabinet. We were all wondering how the sub weighed 123lbs given it felt very hollow to the old "knuckle tap" compared to the PB13 and the FW sub.

The Pulse seen in particular I was interested in given it is centered around 17 to 20hz. The dual and even single VTF's held up well, though as Bill mentioned above, what I'm typically used to is more "pressurized feel" and very little "sound' with that scene (and the plane crash scene in Flight of the Phoenix, and some parts of the WOTW pods emering scene for instance). The VTF's and FW seemed to be "louder" during those scense while the PB13 didn't seem to push out as much sound (I recall actually staring at the woofer at one point to see if it was moving - yes, it was, just very little sound coming from it), and my guess is the room size was so large the PB13 stood no chance of pressurizing the room hence why I wasn't feeling anything. The dual VTF's with one placed nearfield definitely provided a better experience in his room as there was more feel coming from behind us.

One thing that was interesting was that we played the painful (in the sense that it is ear splittingly high) Roy Orbinson Pretty Woman DTS 5.1 track. The drum beats had seeminly more feel/impact with the single VTF15 and even the FW sub than the PB13. Nice kick to the chest sort of feel.

Overall, the sub that really impressed me was the FW12.X sub with the AV12X driver and 500 watt bash amp. Simply because it was much smaller than the other 2 subs, yet in that size room I couldn't say I was missing anything compared to the other 2 subs, and I actually found it did exceedingly well with that so called "mid-bass" slam and to me had a great sound to it. Now, this could be some bias here as my subs are AV15H drivers in a dual opposed setup. So I could just be more accustomed to their sonic signature (haven't really used the PB13 in a year). The sub was also finished spectacularly, though I wish Bill had stuck to a wood stain on that walnut veneer vs black (sorry Bill - personal preference! ).

Again, while it was great to meet Jim and Bill and pound out some movie scense, with REW not working it really put me in a crappy mood as I knew trying to level match them and compare frequency reponses would have been impossible. We also didn't bother at that point putting the subs into the same position (had the FW on top of the PB13 sub in one corner with the VTF in the other corner). Didn't want to go through the hassle of doing that knowing that without REW it would have been moot anyhow.

Hopefully when I get another soundcard we can give it a go once more!

 

My DIY Subs ... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233892

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post #11 of 29 Old 06-17-2011, 09:41 AM
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Sounds like you used what I like to call, "the John demo dvd"

I might have a small GTG for bass nuts this summer. You can bring any sub you want and see how it stacks up against quad 18's

The only issue I'm having now is that I need to rebuild a few spots in my room that rattle too much.
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post #12 of 29 Old 06-17-2011, 09:42 AM
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pbc,

I am quite surprised that you liked the VTF-15, especially since it does not have "below 25hz deep bass extension..."

Also with that cheap driver and amp...Oh man, I still don't know how you liked that horrible sub...

Take care man,

Cacimar Hernandez
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post #13 of 29 Old 06-17-2011, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse S View Post
Sounds like you used what I like to call, "the John demo dvd"

I might have a small GTG for bass nuts this summer. You can bring any sub you want and see how it stacks up against quad 18's

The only issue I'm having now is that I need to rebuild a few spots in my room that rattle too much.
Yes, you know the disc well! Let me know when you're planning it, though I'm not sure if I can handle the ear bleeding pressure like the last time.

BTW, if you haven't already, give that Battle LA disc a spin. I just did and the pressurization of my room was surreal. The last few battle scenes were incredible.

 

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post #14 of 29 Old 06-17-2011, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by cacihome View Post
pbc,

I am quite surprised that you liked the VTF-15, especially since it does not have "below 25hz deep bass extension..."

Also with that cheap driver and amp...Oh man, I don't know, how you liked that horrible sub?

Take care man,
What is it about some of you HSU guys?

Perhaps you should reread the GTG reviews in this thread and find some kind of non existent interpretative slight to fixate on for a few hundred posts.

He did say the sub sounded hollow when tapped - PBC must have some kind of anti HSU bias
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post #15 of 29 Old 06-17-2011, 10:35 AM
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WTH man, where did that come from? We had a friendly gtg not a 'knock down who's package is bigger' lol.

Please keep this thread in the spirit of the gtg.

Jim

Quote:
Originally Posted by cacihome View Post
pbc,

I am quite surprised that you liked the VTF-15, especially since it does not have "below 25hz deep bass extension..."

Also with that cheap driver and amp...Oh man, I don't know, how you liked that horrible sub?

Take care man,
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post #16 of 29 Old 06-17-2011, 10:47 AM
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I agree with you Steve, Bill isn't missing anything especially in his smaller room.
After Bill listened to your combined setup he told his wife he wants another. lol.

I can see where people can get caught up chasing for that 'little more'.
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post #17 of 29 Old 06-17-2011, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sputter1 View Post

I agree with you Steve, Bill isn't missing anything especially in his smaller room.
After Bill listened to your combined setup he told his wife he wants another. lol.

I can see where people can get caught up chasing for that 'little more'.

Ah....I'd say your setup also had some influence .....

But those sealed units do put a different spin on things...

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post #18 of 29 Old 06-17-2011, 05:34 PM
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Ah....I'd say your setup also had some influence .....

But those sealed units do put a different spin on things...

Yes. That shootout told me one thing, that the differences as you get around $1k and up in the ported woofer realm starts to diminish relatively quickly. I.e., as I mentioned to you, I don't think I'd swap that FW sub out for the VTF-15 or PB13, but rather get a second FW 12 unless you end up in a much larger room.

It reaffirmed for me that multiple sealed, capable units (with a true natural 2nd order slope and no HP vs the 4th order being used by several recent offerings) are where it's at in terms of getting that lower octave of performance while also providing extremely solid mid-bass slam. After watching a few of those scenes again at my place and then Battle LA and HTTYD (dragon crashing scene at the end), I know I'm feeling things I wouldn't even with dual large ported subs. Dual PB13's in 10hz or sealed mode would likely also get me there (given it's a more capable sealed sub than most and my room is pretty small so it wouldn't overly stress the PB13s), but in 15hz or 20hz tune I don't believe so.

I'm certainly at incredible overkill in my room with some $4 to $5k in subs between the dual dual opposed AV15h's and PB13 in sealed mode (especially given that when setup right - didn't have it setup right and it was hot when you were listening to it - the PB13 is pretty much barely audible and just filling a hole at around 80ish HZ and providing a bit more tactile feel nearfield), but I'm sure even with 3 "lessor" sealed subs I'd still be happy in my room. I could likely sell my PB13 and get a smaller sealed sub I guess. Maybe I will one day to try out something different like a FW sealed unit or build another... Hmmm...

 

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post #19 of 29 Old 06-17-2011, 08:29 PM
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PBC's got the fever.


....it won't be long now...

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post #20 of 29 Old 06-21-2011, 01:05 PM
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Where's all the pics. (Billy, do you have a pic of your sub? I already know what the others look like.)
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post #21 of 29 Old 06-21-2011, 02:07 PM
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See post 23 here ....

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1283555

It's actually better looking in person, IMO.

 

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post #22 of 29 Old 06-21-2011, 04:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mphfrom77 View Post

Where's all the pics. (Billy, do you have a pic of your sub? I already know what the others look like.)

I know Sputter took a couple of pic's...just guessing...here but I bet his hands are full figuring out REW since we last spoke...

Yeah...Nathan included some pic's of the build process...I thought that was kind of .....

Here is the photo which was taken by Nathan....for his custom's page:
http://www.funkywaves.net/gallery/gallery20_large.png

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post #23 of 29 Old 06-22-2011, 03:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy p View Post

I know Sputter took a couple of pic's...just guessing...here but I bet his hands are full figuring out REW since we last spoke...

Yeah...Nathan included some pic's of the build process...I thought that was kind of .....

Here is the photo which was taken by Nathan....for his custom's page:
http://www.funkywaves.net/gallery/gallery20_large.png

I haven't looked at the two pics that I took but i'll post one or both later today.

About the REW, I've opened the boxes etc and that's all so far. I'm reading and asking questions at this point. It's a wee bit more involved than my SMS.

Jim
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post #24 of 29 Old 06-22-2011, 04:05 AM
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Yeah, that's a sharp looking sub as well. Is it black with a touch of like a deep rose red?
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post #25 of 29 Old 06-22-2011, 04:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mphfrom77 View Post

Yeah, that's a sharp looking sub as well. Is it black with a touch of like a deep rose red?

Yeah, it's a dark espresso(not sure of the exact colour)....I wanted it dark and Nathan provided me with a sample swatch of different stain finishes.

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post #26 of 29 Old 06-22-2011, 05:51 AM
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Jim - send me an email if you have any Qs on setting up the MobilePre and ECM8000 mic with REW. Best place to get answers is of course the Shack, but I think I've gone through every possible problem by now with REW!

 

My DIY Subs ... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233892

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #27 of 29 Old 06-22-2011, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by pbc View Post

Jim - send me an email if you have any Qs on setting up the MobilePre and ECM8000 mic with REW. Best place to get answers is of course the Shack, but I think I've gone through every possible problem by now with REW!

haha, count on it Steve since you pushed me over the edge to get started on this REW learning. (I kept putting it off).

Jim
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post #28 of 29 Old 06-22-2011, 03:46 PM
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Here is the best picture of the two I took. It was a quicky taken to show my wife. It's not framed or shot very well
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post #29 of 29 Old 06-22-2011, 06:14 PM
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Man, those subs look big. It's funny how in some pictures speakers and subs look small and in others they look big.

How big is the port on the FW?
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