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post #361 of 585 Old 11-23-2011, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by hometheatergeek View Post

What's a local cinema? Haven't been to one since I bought the ULS-15s.

Sometimes it's fun to sit with a crowd but only if it's a film you don't need to pay total attention to.
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post #362 of 585 Old 11-23-2011, 10:10 AM
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I stand corrected (sorry about that!), I did a quick search on FilmMixer, and it is pretty clear the ULF mixes are intentional. What the hell was I thinking or "remembering"? I guess I need a little more coffee!
Anyway, this has probably been answered before here and on other sites, but why would these ULF mixes be intentional if the theaters cannot produce them?? Obviously there is a good amount of money made by selling the DVD's/BR, but isn't most of the money made from the theaters? I'm guessing the percentage of home users that can actually reproduce this ULF must be fairly small. I am not complaining by any means, just a little curious....

I'm glad you realized your error. The people who mix audio for the movie industry are pro's pros. The top sound engineers are the best in the world at what they do. There's no reason to think that anything in any mix they work on is not 100% absolutely and always intentional, especially when they say it is intentional. They get paid to be perfect, or as near as possible.

Now, it should be said again that what they do is art, not just production. They mix audio with the expressed purpose of creating immersion - the number one objective in film-making. Sound may be the single most important factor in the immersive experience of a movie, and it is a critical component of storytelling, as most producers will tell you. Realism adds to immersion, and realism requires that sounds be believable, especially (but not only) in far-fetched fantasy, sci-fi, and action movie genres full of unbelievable events. An enormous part of what makes the best of these movies believable is that the sound matches our expectations of events unfolding in the storytelling of the movie.

As examples, when you hear a big military helicopter going overhead, is it just a minor whirring of blades that you hear, or is it a definitive thump-thump-thump that you both hear and feel down into the soles of your feet? When you're in a car wreck, is it merely a metallic crunch, or is it a bone-jarring impact that rattles your whole body? When you see an A-10 Warthog (military "tankbuster" jet) strafing a hill with its 30mm, 15oz projectile rounds in a training exercise at a base, shooting 3900 rounds per minute (yeah, that's 65 bullets per second!), you think it sounds like a tinny AK-47 shooting a few bursts, or is it so loud and low that it flexes windows and doors 10 miles away?

Considering these examples, how would you expect it to sound and feel if a giant dragon (the size of a mountain) came crashing to the ground defeated; an alien machine rose from below ground to ravage a city; a ride on a military helicopter in a daring rescue mission faced heavy resistance in some underdeveloped nation; in a plane crash; near a meteor impact; witnessing a nuclear explosion? These are some of the things sound engineers want to recreate, and the best professionals create the most immersive mixes, ones that incorporate all of the ULF stuff you'd expect to hear/feel in such situations, artfully blended with the rest of the soundtrack to convince our ears that what we're seeing is the real deal. When movies get it right, it's a thing of rare beauty, and there is no doubt that that is the intent.
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post #363 of 585 Old 11-23-2011, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by hometheatergeek View Post


What's a local cinema? Haven't been to one since I bought the ULS-15s.

I hear ya, I rarely go to the local cinema anymore. Last said, if it was not for the "box office", we would have never had DVD/BR's to watch at home.....
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post #364 of 585 Old 11-23-2011, 10:17 AM
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Ahhh...

This thread again. Just in time for the holidays.

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post #365 of 585 Old 11-23-2011, 10:27 AM
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I'm glad you realized your error. The people who mix audio for the movie industry are pro's pros. The top sound engineers are the best in the world at what they do. There's no reason to think that anything in any mix they work on is not 100% absolutely and always intentional, especially when they say it is intentional. They get paid to be perfect, or as near as possible.

Now, it should be said again that what they do is art, not just production. They mix audio with the expressed purpose of creating immersion - the number one objective in film-making. Sound may be the single most important factor in the immersive experience of a movie, and it is a critical component of storytelling, as most producers will tell you. Realism adds to immersion, and realism requires that sounds be believable, especially (but not only) in far-fetched fantasy, sci-fi, and action movie genres full of unbelievable events. An enormous part of what makes the best of these movies believable is that the sound matches our expectations of events unfolding in the storytelling of the movie.

As examples, when you hear a big military helicopter going overhead, is it just a minor whirring of blades that you hear, or is it a definitive thump-thump-thump that you both hear and feel down into the soles of your feet? When you're in a car wreck, is it merely a metallic crunch, or is it a bone-jarring impact that rattles your whole body? When you see an A-10 Warthog (military "tankbuster" jet) strafing a hill with its 30mm, 15oz projectile rounds in a training exercise at a base, shooting 3900 rounds per minute (yeah, that's 65 bullets per second!), you think it sounds like a tinny AK-47 shooting a few bursts, or is it so loud and low that it flexes windows and doors 10 miles away?

Considering these examples, how would you expect it to sound and feel if a giant dragon (the size of a mountain) came crashing to the ground defeated; an alien machine rose from below ground to ravage a city; a ride on a military helicopter in a daring rescue mission faced heavy resistance in some underdeveloped nation; in a plane crash; near a meteor impact; witnessing a nuclear explosion? These are some of the things sound engineers want to recreate, and the best professionals create the most immersive mixes, ones that incorporate all of the ULF stuff you'd expect to hear/feel in such situations, artfully blended with the rest of the soundtrack to convince our ears that what we're seeing is the real deal. When movies get it right, it's a thing of rare beauty, and there is no doubt that that is the intent.

I agree 100% nube! It really is too bad there are so few that get a chance to hear the LF, much less the ULF. Most theaters don't go below 30hz and neither do home theaters. I think I could probably count on one hand the subwoofers that are readily available to the general public ((which excludes DIY) that can actually reproduce 10Hz and below. And 99% of the people out there don't even know they exist. It really is a shame!
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post #366 of 585 Old 11-23-2011, 10:46 AM
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Just because there may be true ULF material on a DVD doesn't mean that there isn't also plain old Low Frequency material as well. The people who do the mixing have to take into account that most end users can't reproduce 10Hz at the required 100db and 10% THD, so there is also material in the 30-40Hz range that can sound impressive to someone who has a pair of subs that roll-off badly below 30 Hz.

An interesting example is the ****ing Irene scene in Black Hawk Down. 8 Hz is present in the mix, but there is also regular LF material for the masses.

Just consider that ToDD-AO used 22 Bag End subs to mix the soundtrack.
Also, I'm not sure why anyone would bother listing ULF sources. Aside from those in the military, who knows what a helicopter sounds like? And, exactly what do crashes and other special effects sound like?

There is also an ongoing issue about which frequencies give one the kick-in-the-chest experience. Is it the sub 20Hz material, or mid-bass?
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post #367 of 585 Old 11-23-2011, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Ahhh...

This thread again. Just in time for the holidays.

Ho! Ho! Ho! Merry Christmas!

 

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post #368 of 585 Old 11-23-2011, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by spyboy View Post


Just consider that ToDD-AO used 22 Bag End subs to mix the soundtrack.
Also, I'm not sure why anyone would bother listing ULF sources. Aside from those in the military, who knows what a helicopter sounds like? And, exactly what do crashes and other special effects sound like?

I don't know about that. We as humans experience ULF almost everyday we are alive. And I don't know about you, I'm not in the military but I know what a helicopter sounds like. They fly around all the time. Some low enough (there is a military camp up the foothills from me) with big blades that give the EXACT same feeling as black hawk down. Only louder and real-er.

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post #369 of 585 Old 11-23-2011, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

I don't know about that. We as humans experience ULF almost everyday we are alive. And I don't know about you, I'm not in the military but I know what a helicopter sounds like. They fly around all the time. Some low enough (there is a military camp up the foothills from me) with big blades that give the EXACT same feeling as black hawk down. Only louder and real-er.

When was the last time you were near a dragon crashing into a mountain though?

 

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post #370 of 585 Old 11-23-2011, 10:54 AM
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Pfft. Last week in Disneyland, bro.

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post #371 of 585 Old 11-23-2011, 11:09 AM
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I don't know about that. We as humans experience ULF almost everyday we are alive. And I don't know about you, I'm not in the military but I know what a helicopter sounds like. They fly around all the time. Some low enough (there is a military camp up the foothills from me) with big blades that give the EXACT same feeling as black hawk down. Only louder and real-er.

I have to defer to you living near a military camp, still, I am talking about the difference between being the pilot of a Huey in Viet Nam and hearing a helicopter from 1,000 feet. Why do you think that the guys who work at airports wear serious noise reducing ear muffs and that pilots and those who are in an Abrams tank have to wear noise cancelling headphones?

"only louder and real-er" don't begin to convey the difference.

It is a shame that several members here have already experienced some hearing loss listening at Reference or higher. I think Archaea did some damage to his ears in pursuit of the loudest and deepest subs. He ended up with dual Captivators.

As you were
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post #372 of 585 Old 11-23-2011, 11:15 AM
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Ever heard a garbage truck? Or any large vehicle? They don't roll off at 20hz.

Although mother nature might have a high-pass filter on wind somewhere around 25-30hz last time I checked. Kept bottoming out it's.... umm.... something.

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post #373 of 585 Old 11-23-2011, 11:31 AM
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Ever heard a garbage truck? Or any large vehicle? They don't roll off at 20hz.

Although mother nature might have a high-pass filter on wind somewhere around 25-30hz last time I checked. Kept bottoming out it's.... umm.... something.

I have been very close to a garbage truck not to mention genuine thunder. And in case I haven't been clear, I would just love to be able to afford a Thigpen Rotary sub for 3Hz-25Hz. I also know that in the right room people like MKtheater are getting 3-10Hz at pretty high levels, and that your subs are quite capable to say the least.
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post #374 of 585 Old 11-23-2011, 11:36 AM
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Thanks. I'll have the <10hz covered in spades once I switch from LLT to quad sealed. The Thigpen is a cool device but in reality, one doesn't need it to reproduce ULF content. One just needs to be inside a building with a capable system and it's a lot easier to achieve than it sounds. And it sure as hell can be done for a WHOLE LOT LESS than the $25,000 it takes to get just one rotary system.

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post #375 of 585 Old 11-23-2011, 11:46 AM
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You make a good point that there exists not only ULF but also LFE effects in movies and music. That encompasses the broadest viewing audience.

My point was not only does this stuff exist in real life, in situations as simple as closing a car door, but that things in movies that are not real must be believable, and one of the best ways to do that is to incorporate expected sound depth and breadth in the mix and engineering of the movie. Since we feel/hear ULF all the time in real life, when we view real life on the big screen, we want it to be believable. Both then and when we're in the fantasy world of movies depicting things that are not real, sound adds to the immersive and storytelling aspects. When done right, a movie looks, sounds, and feels right based on what our mind and body expect. You learn how critical this is when you take video and audio production classes, but even if you don't have that experience, you know it when you see and hear it, too. Otherwise, why would we strive for the best audio and video reproduction we can afford?

That's the point of the producer's direction to sound design in movies, even if the theater can't reproduce it all. They know what the desired effect they want to achieve for the audience, and they (usually) make certain the sound helps achieve that. I think the point is moot, unless some people just like arguing.
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post #376 of 585 Old 11-23-2011, 11:52 AM
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Are there any structural concerns with playback of such strong ULF content? Last thing I would want is busting a water pipe, etc. Even with my lowly pb plus I am able to shake the house the point where it creaks and groans pretty good...
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post #377 of 585 Old 11-23-2011, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Thanks. I'll have the <10hz covered in spades once I switch from LLT to quad sealed. The Thigpen is a cool device but in reality, one doesn't need it to reproduce ULF content. One just needs to be inside a building with a capable system and it's a lot easier to achieve than it sounds. And it sure as hell can be done for a WHOLE LOT LESS than the $25,000 it takes to get just one rotary system.

Cool.
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post #378 of 585 Old 11-23-2011, 11:56 AM
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Are there any structural concerns with playback of such strong ULF content? Last thing I would want is busting a water pipe, etc.

I always imagine the natural gas pipes rattling in the walls, the couplings slowly unscrewing...
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post #379 of 585 Old 11-23-2011, 11:58 AM
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Are there any structural concerns with playback of such strong ULF content? Last thing I would want is busting a water pipe, etc. Even with my lowly pb plus I am able to shake the house the point where it creaks and groans pretty good...

Things such as water and gas piping (schedule 40 pvc, resin, or copper/galvanized), electrical, and signal wiring should be fine up to the maximum loudness potential for ULF/LFE reproduction in-home. So should any wooden or metal studs, joists, etc. What may be in danger is paint, drywall, plaster, glass, or other brittle substances that are typically thin and cannot flex much in any direction without breaking.
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post #380 of 585 Old 11-23-2011, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewTT View Post

Are there any structural concerns with playback of such strong ULF content? Last thing I would want is busting a water pipe, etc. Even with my lowly pb plus I am able to shake the house the point where it creaks and groans pretty good...

It's easy to vibrate things off shelves and possibly cause pictures to fall off walls. Structural damage must take a lot more doing since I haven't done it yet (lol). I have heard of cracked drywall being blamed on subs and I've seen videos of windshields being blown out on cars.
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post #381 of 585 Old 11-23-2011, 12:06 PM
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Yes, I've had to realign a few pictures and have vibrated a smoke alarm off the ceiling in the hallway.

I can't even imagine what a pair of Captivators or other serious subs would do to my house...lol
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post #382 of 585 Old 11-23-2011, 12:08 PM
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Here's a pic of a nail pop that happen in my room.


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post #383 of 585 Old 11-23-2011, 12:11 PM
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Nice!
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post #384 of 585 Old 11-23-2011, 12:21 PM
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Nice!

Thanks, If I remember correctly that happen after I gave a 3 hour demo to Bryan Beckman. The guy that runs the New Audio Tier Thread here on AVS. I played all the famous scenes from WOTW, Dark Knight, Transformers, you get the idea.

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post #385 of 585 Old 11-23-2011, 03:21 PM
 
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Jeeze, people sure get excited about that final 1% of the low frequencies! My post was to clarify that the term "intended" wasn't being used correctly, I said nothing about "unintentional" sub frequencies. If the soundtrack is mixed with ultra low sound effects that can only be reproduced at home using "uber" subs then fine, I'm sure they are intentional and have fun if that's your thing. The movie as "intended" will sound just fine with subs that have usable 20 hz response, and there is nothing wrong with that. We are not "missing" anything important from the directors perspective, the LFE below that should be viewed as icing on the cake. Of course, using subs that roll off in the upper 20s or higher will detract from the experience, which is why many people using a sealed sub in an open room often complain about the missing low end.
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post #386 of 585 Old 11-23-2011, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

I don't know about that. We as humans experience ULF almost everyday we are alive. And I don't know about you, I'm not in the military but I know what a helicopter sounds like. They fly around all the time. Some low enough (there is a military camp up the foothills from me) with big blades that give the EXACT same feeling as black hawk down. Only louder and real-er.

This will be comically anecdotal compared to your helicopter example, but some of the lowest frequencies I've heard and felt were from....wait for it.....my wife's former Honda Accord. One of our bathrooms is right next to the garage, and when she'd pull up in that car the pressure in the bathroom (not from my colon) was unreal. You could barely hear it but it shook you like a whale carcass in a shark's mouth.

I took my XTZ software and laptop in there one day and had her start the car. I can't remember the db level but 16hz was lit up. Unfortunately that's as low as XTZ measures.

Stephen.

Chances are very good that I was drinking when I posted the above.

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post #387 of 585 Old 11-23-2011, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

It's easy to vibrate things off shelves and possibly cause pictures to fall off walls. Structural damage must take a lot more doing since I haven't done it yet (lol). I have heard of cracked drywall being blamed on subs and I've seen videos of windshields being blown out on cars.

I have two walls in my house that buzz at times. One corner in the listening room, and a wall in an adjoining hallway. Both have growing cracks in the drywall.

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post #388 of 585 Old 11-23-2011, 05:30 PM
 
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I am a 1%er! I love what the frequencies 20Hz and lower do for a movie. The cost certainly does start to go up a lot to get below 10Hz, but it is like anything else in life. If you have not heard the difference I don't know how you can make a comment like that or say that it is less than 1%. Most movies have this content and if your system can't play it than you are not experiencing the track as it was intended.

I want to demo a room that plays down into the single digits to experience that and see if it is worth chasing.

Don't you mean feel that difference since 10hz is below the threshold of human hearing?
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post #389 of 585 Old 11-23-2011, 05:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

I don't know about that. We as humans experience ULF almost everyday we are alive. And I don't know about you, I'm not in the military but I know what a helicopter sounds like. They fly around all the time. Some low enough (there is a military camp up the foothills from me) with big blades that give the EXACT same feeling as black hawk down. Only louder and real-er.

You must live in low-Cal (not so-Cal).
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post #390 of 585 Old 11-23-2011, 05:42 PM
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This thread is going to mean it will be a long time before I get my first subwoofer... My budget started at $1,000 and now I'm feeling that is far too small to accomplish a quality bass setup in a HT. This forum has cost me more money than I would have thought possible!
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