Purpose of flat response below 20Hz - Why does it matter? - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

"Scientific Applications and Research Associates (SARA) - This agency's alleged infrasound research showed....Extreme levels of annoyance or distraction would result from minutes of exposure to levels 90 to 120 dB at low frequencies (5 to 200 Hz), strong physical trauma and damage to tissues at 140 - 150 dB, and instantaneous blastwave type trauma at above 170 dB."

OK, I'm going to go out on a limb here and agree with something Auditor55 brought up. If I am subjected to several minutes of a 5HZ tone at 170Db, I can see how people could be rather annoyed and distracted.

So, Audotor55, who here is rocking a system that plays a 5Hz tone at 170Db? Cause I totally have to check out WotW on their system. They might be annoyed that I broke in to play with their system, and I might be distracted by the police taking me away, but man, what a rush.
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:23 PM
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Not to mention the difference between 90 and 120 dBs is very large. Extreme levels of annoyance and distraction, if this was harmful then we would never get married, have a job, or live life. You can't make this stuff up!
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

I see you still refuse to believe groups like Nazis expirement with infrasounds. You think its some kind of joke. Its true, look up Sonic Weapons so you can get an understanding.

"Depending on the pitch, infrasound can cause physical pressure, fear, disorientation, negative physical and mental symptoms, explode matter, incapacitate, and kill. For example, in World War II, Nazi propaganda engineers used infrasound to stir up anger in the large crowds that had gathered to hear Hitler. The result was a nation filled with anger and hatred.
Studies show the different ways in which infrasound affects the human body. As infrasound pitches, or cycles per second, decrease, deadly effects on the body increase. Infrasound disrupts the normal functioning of the middle and inner ear, leading to nausea, imbalance, impaired equilibrium, immobilization, and disorientation. Exposure to even mild doses of infrasound can lead to illness. Increased intensities of infrasound can result in death".

I hope the above puts to rest whether or not the Nazis used infrasounds, so let us stop with the insults and get serious.

So a subwoofer is a weapon? Let me ask you this, how come we don't have people on this forum that listen to ULF puking, pissing, death, etc in their home theaters after watching a movie? Surely the symptoms would be quite noticeable? I have never felt angry after watching a movie that had sub 20hz bass...

You need to stop your ridiculous witch hunt here.
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

So a subwoofer is a weapon? Let me ask you this, how come we don't have people on this forum that listen to ULF puking, pissing, death, etc in their home theaters after watching a movie?.

Damn, you beat me to it!

Well everyone, it's been real. I made the decision today that life has just become too unbearable. I'm gonna scoot my chair up close to my subs, partake in my last meal of Tang and a Slim Jim, and turn on WOTW.

No! Don't try to stop me. I have nothing to live for and the decision has been made..

See you on the other side.

RIP - me
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Old 10-06-2012, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

A giant calmly explaining the way of things to a garden-variety troll, now I've seen it all!

He asked, and the answer obviously served the purpose of allowing/prompting Auditor55 to properly communicate his position. wink.gif

Thanks for the "giant" reference. More often I receive "little person" jokes:

At least I wasn't in this one with itai/cubesys & Sandbagger (although this was a smaller one):


Really... the subs are only 3' tall and I wear platform shoes at the meets:


OK, so this one was a bit ridiculous, but note it's on an 18" tall ledge, making it only 7' tall on its own:


Of course little do the owners of these subs know that I'm working closely with big pharm' to induce sickness across the globe and boost sales of anti-nausea meds with these 9-10Hz devices! rolleyes.gif
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Old 10-06-2012, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

So a subwoofer is a weapon? Let me ask you this, how come we don't have people on this forum that listen to ULF puking, pissing, death, etc in their home theaters after watching a movie? Surely the symptoms would be quite noticeable? I have never felt angry after watching a movie that had sub 20hz bass...
You need to stop your ridiculous witch hunt here.
I don't know. I've been pretty pissed about a few blind buys that had sub 20hz bass. Guess I should have rented.

To your point, though, there is tinnitus to consider (which wouldn't show until later). It ain't no joke, I promise.frown.gif

Stephen.

Chances are very good that I was drinking when I posted the above.

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Old 10-06-2012, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by sb1 View Post

I don't know. I've been pretty pissed about a few blind buys that had sub 20hz bass. Guess I should have rented.
To your point, though, there is tinnitus to consider (which wouldn't show until later). It ain't no joke, I promise.frown.gif

In this vein, you don't see many serious movies using sub 20 hz frequencies. Playing devil's advocate here, but, while I like having subsonic capability, I just don't have much use for it because so few of the movies I am interested in actually use it. Deep bass is mostly used as merely an effect, and effect driven films can often be very poor as a drama, because they too often rely on dumb spectacle rather than interesting characters or dramatic conflict. Surround sound channels have the same problem. I do think deep bass and surround channels have the capability of adding meaningful content to decent movies and music, but this ability is largely left unexplored. I would guess this is because content producers tend to play it safe, commercially speaking, and are therefore beholden to convention and remain artistically conservative in both a creative and technical sense- but that, of course, is a much wider criticism. This particular criticism is subjective, and I don't think it should deter anyone from pursuing ultra low frequency bass, after all, it is better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
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Old 10-06-2012, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

So a subwoofer is a weapon? Let me ask you this, how come we don't have people on this forum that listen to ULF puking, pissing, death, etc in their home theaters after watching a movie? Surely the symptoms would be quite noticeable? I have never felt angry after watching a movie that had sub 20hz bass...
You need to stop your ridiculous witch hunt here.

Because I think what is being missed here is that, yes while an ULF tone(sine wave) even at moderate levels can "affect" people, a music or movie track is FAR from a a continuous tone. Think about it, what continuous frequency tone(sine wave) would be bearable at even say only 70db(no exposure time limit) for even just a couple min, let alone hours, or days. Try and play a tone in the 1-5khz range at say 100-120db for a few min(up to the respective exposure time limit), and see how you "feel", based on that you wouldn't conclude that there is no point in having a system capable of more than 70db(or even 100db) because any frequency at or above that level is intolerable, and makes you "feel" bad/angry etc. The benefit of ULF for purposefully trying to "affect" people is that you can play it(continuous tones) at moderate to high levels without people "hearing" it, and it travels very well.

In a movie track very often the ULF is only a few cycles(fractions of a second), and at most a few seconds, so even at very high levels 120db+, does no harm(to a person anyway).

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Old 10-07-2012, 02:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

I see you still refuse to believe groups like Nazis expirement with infrasounds. You think its some kind of joke. Its true, look up Sonic Weapons so you can get an understanding.

"Depending on the pitch, infrasound can cause physical pressure, fear, disorientation, negative physical and mental symptoms, explode matter, incapacitate, and kill. For example, in World War II, Nazi propaganda engineers used infrasound to stir up anger in the large crowds that had gathered to hear Hitler. The result was a nation filled with anger and hatred.
Studies show the different ways in which infrasound affects the human body. As infrasound pitches, or cycles per second, decrease, deadly effects on the body increase. Infrasound disrupts the normal functioning of the middle and inner ear, leading to nausea, imbalance, impaired equilibrium, immobilization, and disorientation. Exposure to even mild doses of infrasound can lead to illness. Increased intensities of infrasound can result in death".

I hope the above puts to rest whether or not the Nazis used infrasounds, so let us stop with the insults and get serious.


you know, I thought A55 had gotten over this obsession and moved on . I see that the learning curve is steeper than I guessed. Very few of the people here can hit 4 or 10 Hz over 120 dB at the very most. Of those, I am not aware of any that are dead as they type their posts.
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Old 10-07-2012, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

you know, I thought A55 had gotten over this obsession and moved on . I see that the learning curve is steeper than I guessed. Very few of the people here can hit 4 or 10 Hz over 120 dB at the very most. Of those, I am not aware of any that are dead as they type their posts.
But what about the ones that died that can't tell us? tongue.gif
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

you know, I thought A55 had gotten over this obsession and moved on . I see that the learning curve is steeper than I guessed. Very few of the people here can hit 4 or 10 Hz over 120 dB at the very most. Of those, I am not aware of any that are dead as they type their posts.

Not only have I not gotten over this, I have begun to do some critical research. I have already contacted folks at Dolby Labs and SMPTE together their views on the effect of infrasounds on human beings. Also their views on infrasounic content in the soundtrack used for the commericial cinema.

This is really a hot topic for industry people. When I questions folks withing those organizations on the effects of infrasounds in commericial theater, they seem unwilling to touch it.
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Not only have I not gotten over this, I have begun to do some critical research. I have already contacted folks at Dolby Labs and SMPTE together their views on the effect of infrasounds on human beings. Also their views on infrasounic content in the soundtrack used for the commericial cinema.
This is really a hot topic for industry people. When I questions folks withing those organizations on the effects of infrasounds in commericial theater, they seem unwilling to touch it.

Did you consider the possibility that maybe they just don't want to deal with you? Just sayin'...
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:36 PM
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I'm sure you have undulated them with plenty of 'objective' questions without hint of bias or predetermined expectations of confirmation of your nonsensical agenda.

A probable sampling of his 'investigative' quest.
"Is it not true that infrasonic sound in film mixes are an unnecessary health risk?"

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Old 10-09-2012, 03:00 PM
 
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I'm sure you have undulated them with plenty of 'objective' questions without hint of bias or predetermined expectations of confirmation of your nonsensical agenda.
A probable sampling of his 'investigative' quest.
"Is it not true that infrasonic sound in film mixes are an unnecessary health risk?"
Best Regards
KvE

I don't ask questions in that manner because you will get guarded answers. I'm just a student doing some research, I'm not trying insert my on view point. Also, I'm kind of focusing in on the commericial cinema where the public might be unaware or have no control if they were subjected to any harmful effects of infrasounds.

In the home cinema it doesn't matter, if some enthusiast want to build and infrasonic capable home theaters and blast it, that's your choice or preference, its all on you. However, don't come back to the AVS forum complaining about feelings of fear, sickness or getting headaches from intense exposure to infrasounds from your home theater.
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Old 10-09-2012, 03:11 PM
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More than anything else be it in a commercial cinema or home theater the primary health risk is exposure to excessive loud playback. Higher the decibels the shorter the time of exposure before hearing damage.

As far as I am aware most commercial cinemas are not designed to reproduce much bass into the 20hz range, let alone anything below that. Biggest concern is playback levels and how compressed, dynamic range reduction, the soundtrack is.

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Old 10-09-2012, 03:51 PM
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This whole matter might be settled this month by about 25 attendees in blind vote!

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1427697/omaha-home-theater-tour-october-27-2012/0_20

Three of the four systems on this tour are capable of strong subsonic frequencies and desertdome is a strong EQ personality on AVSforum.

He's toying with the idea of setting up some blind EQ settings where a different HPF is employed to see if people can identify which of the EQ's passes the lowest frequency reproduction.

IE --- setting up a HPF at 20hz, 15hz, 10hz, and 5hz. Playing back the same track and seeing if the 25 attendees can blind vote on which FR is which. He would setup the test before hand and ensure the three EQ settings are all identical down to the HPF.

One setup has four UXL 18's.
One setup has a DTS-10.
One setup has eight 15"s in an infinite baffle arrangement.

Possibly three different rooms, three different setups, about 2 dozen blind voters
if done right it could be pretty definitive testing day to the value of subsonic frequency in movie reproduction. That is until notnyt, bossobass, scott, or mktheater decides to host a meet and provide complimentary or contradictory evidence!

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Old 10-09-2012, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

This whole matter might be settled this month by about 25 attendees in blind vote!
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1427697/omaha-home-theater-tour-october-27-2012/0_20
Three of the four systems on this tour are capable of strong subsonic frequencies and desertdome is a strong EQ personality on AVSforum.
He's toying with the idea of setting up some blind EQ settings where a different HPF is employed to see if people can identify which of the EQ's passes the lowest frequency reproduction.
IE --- setting up a HPF at 20hz, 15hz, 10hz, and 5hz. Playing back the same track and seeing if the 25 attendees can blind vote on which FR is which. He would setup the test before hand and ensure the three EQ settings are all identical down to the HPF.
One setup has four UXL 18's.
One setup has a DTS-10.
One setup has eight 15"s in an infinite baffle arrangement.
Possibly three different rooms, three different setups, about 2 dozen blind voters
if done right it could be pretty definitive testing day to the value of subsonic frequency in movie reproduction.
If you start with 25, I hope you end up with 25. biggrin.gif
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But what about the ones that died that can't tell us? tongue.gif

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Old 10-09-2012, 06:07 PM
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ha!




I just stumbled upon this....It seems somewhat pertinant to the conversation at hand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXiVhjgxsU0

Bassotronics --- The bass will destroy you.



--- No disrespect intended Auditor. You are entitled to your opinion as the rest of us are. Something about this conversation brought to mind the scene from monty python where they are looking at the stone carvings and it says aghhhhhhhh. One guy says he must have died while carving it. The other says look if he were dying he wouldn't have taken the time to carve out the word aghhhhhh.

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Old 10-09-2012, 08:04 PM
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Good god, who rehashed this thread??

 

My DIY Subs ... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233892

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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Old 10-09-2012, 08:15 PM
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Good god, who rehashed this thread??

ummm... A55 did. Surprised?

It's for 'wall hung dude', and no, I don't need any help to 'hook-up'.... sheesh ... dirty minds around these parts....
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:40 PM
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Seriously, guys--the crowning achievement of this thread is the re-branding to A55. Thank you. Thank you all.

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Old 10-09-2012, 11:35 PM
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Is this guy cereal?

A decade on this forum, I guess he found his niche...
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

In the home cinema it doesn't matter, if some enthusiast want to build and infrasonic capable home theaters and blast it, that's your choice or preference, its all on you. However, don't come back to the AVS forum complaining about feelings of fear, sickness or getting headaches from intense exposure to infrasounds from your home theater.

Has this ever happened?

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Old 10-10-2012, 01:03 PM
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Has this ever happened?

Dead men tell no tales......


Just kidding. I posted the same thing. There are some folks here that design and own bada$$ subwoofer systems. The fact that we simply do not read reports of people showing any symptoms that Auditor says they should is quite telling. It really is all the proof you need.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:08 PM
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My system must suck! I don't get those effects at all during a movie. Again, the food we eat or the stuff we drink is far worse but hey, I guess we need to complain about something. The stress from reading this crap is worse! Also, just go to a Six flags and you will get much worse effects which people pay for!

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Old 10-10-2012, 01:12 PM
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I hope Auditor gets to the bottom of this. I don't want my kids growing up in a world where home theaters turn you into Nazi zombies.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:41 PM
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Well apart from being felt, it doesn't. There are practicalities that can make the question moot. Can one tolerate the aesthetics of the sub? Does one like to be disturbed by loud subsonics? Does one have the space and privacy that subsonics demand? ie. Do you live in a condo or apartment?
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Old 10-10-2012, 02:30 PM
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Auditor went quiet on this little crusade of his long enough for me to think he'd decided either to join the majority or at least to stop pushing this particular concept. But not nearly long enough for folks to forget his many many previous posts excoriating the idea of deep bass . . . so this is truly nothing new, just a rehashed rehash of a rehash.
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:47 PM
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I love this thread.
First comment, I want my system to be able to reduce all frequencies possible to be recorded on the playback device, i.e. blueray disk or what ever comes next.
It remains a goal.
Second comment, it seems people read things and then draw conclusions that are not proper.
Third comment, some of the documents that are supposed to support the 'harm will be done to you ' theory, upon further more careful reading seem to lack adequate references, scientific methodology, scope, or all three at once.

In searching for better sources of information, obviously are some of the more common sense comments and observations by our more astute members. We have among us (not me, not yet) those who have either purchased or constructed devices (subwoofers) capable of more low frequency reproduction than any other generation has had or has been exposed to. We have among us many who have both listened to these subs as well as contributed to our knowledge base by providing measurements using devices that seem to get better and more accurate as time goes on. We see waterfall charts, we now have cedia standards for measurements, and we have databases that allow us to compare how various subs produce sound, both expected and distortion free and what artifacts they may or do add while reproducing. This is all great stuff. In all of the listening I don't recall ever reading about any ill effects other than some mentions of nausea. And we have among us many, repeat many, who listen loud and who constantly push for the ability to listen to reference level, with clarity and as little distortion as is possible.
In order to satisfy my curiosity I continue to seek decent, well written articles to shed more light on this topic of low frequency sounds and their effects. Stop with all this nazi stuff and weapons stuff. If it could be done, effectively, we wouldn't be fighting terrorists with the weapons we are presently using would we? I think not.

One decent article I found was a group doing some research, in Germany, of people living in residential structures subject to vibrations. The work that they did can be taken for what it is. I thought the article was well written, but, the article didn't lead me to conclude anything of significance to subwoofers and how we use them. I think more good research needs to be done, but directed more towards the incidences of low vibrations, standing waves, and at levels and in locations that we DON'T want them. The article is titled Disturbing effects of low frequency sound immissions and vibrations in residential buildings. It can be found here http://www.noiseandhealth.org/article.asp?issn=1463-1741;year=2004;volume=6;issue=23;spage=29;epage=35;aulast=Findeis
I want to thank again all the AVS posters who have shared their knowledge and results of subwoofers and their performance levels achieved. It gives me something to strive for.
If any others who are serious about what CAN be said about the topic of low frequencies and their effects would share the sources, so that we can read and evaluate the value of those articles, that would be appreciated, at least by me. They certainly won't be as exiting as some of the GTG events, but, I think there is value, at least to me, of always learning more, always advancing what we know, but to do so carefully and scientifically. For those who don't find that search for knowledge personally enjoyable, well, do your own thing. I think there is value to us learning how the body reacts, to all stimulus. I do worry about noise pollution as some of what we are subjected to is referred. I don't think music, or soundtracks should be considered noise pollution. We can control our subs and our volume levels. The instrusive noise not under our control is of more concern to me.
Oh well, just had to post in the hopes of some sanity and decent research.
Onward to the next best bass in a movie thread!
Stay well everyone.

deeper than the deepest ocean
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

I'm just a student doing some research, I'm not trying insert my on view point.

For a person who is "just a student doing some research" you sure make some claims and assertions about the effects of infrasonics.

Sure, it's convenient to give the excuse "I'm not trying insert my on [sic] view point" but what you're really doing is just adopting the view points of others and parroting them. In other words it is or has become your viewpoint.
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