Purpose of flat response below 20Hz - Why does it matter? - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 585 Old 10-14-2012, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

you are now and forever uninvited from any subwoofer g2gs tongue.gif


Haha, I'll never need little blue pills, all I have to do is paint my SubM blue,rolleyes.gif Thanks ULF .
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post #542 of 585 Old 10-14-2012, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Sigh... You left out the part where I said I did this all afternoon... And the part where nobody in my family has ever felt sick after watching a movie. What movie has 3+ hours straight of heavy mid to low frequency bass? None. Again, you can't cherry pick the data for your agenda.
Too much of anything is bad for you. ULF bass, in moderation, is not harmful, and there are no side effects.

like many with a deeply rooted bias, he sees anecdotes that support his beliefs as proof, and anecdotes that do not support his beliefs as BS. And he can't tell he's doing it, so he cannot be convinced not to do it.

On a somewhat similar note, I had the dubious pleasure of jamming with some players at a usually-highly professional open jam last week, and unfortunately these particular folks were unable to discern that they were incapable of playing. No sense yelling at them that their chord progressions varied randomly or that their tuning changed from measure to measure. You muddle through, and get the heck away from them . . . .
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post #543 of 585 Old 10-15-2012, 06:01 PM
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jHAz
You make an excellent point.
To the rest of the contributors,
In fact this thread and its many attempts at educating a particular poster are, doomed. Some people are not capable of knowing what they don't know. There is scientific method, there is reasonable analysis of data, and then there are people who do not understand the language, implications there of, etc. They try to use what at first seems like a correct arguement to come to a conclusion, but, once they make it they are unable to admit where they made a mistake, or, where the arguements weak points are.
I guess we try out of the kindness of our hearts, in an effort to help a 'brother' so to speak, only to find ourselves betrayed.
He knows not what he does.

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post #544 of 585 Old 10-16-2012, 02:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

like many with a deeply rooted bias, he sees anecdotes that support his beliefs as proof, and anecdotes that do not support his beliefs as BS. And he can't tell he's doing it, so he cannot be convinced not to do it.
On a somewhat similar note, I had the dubious pleasure of jamming with some players at a usually-highly professional open jam last week, and unfortunately these particular folks were unable to discern that they were incapable of playing. No sense yelling at them that their chord progressions varied randomly or that their tuning changed from measure to measure. You muddle through, and get the heck away from them . . . .

I'm not coming with any belief, what I have cited to you is from folks with extensive knowledge about this stuff. You guys are just in here trying to defend an expenditure. You reject the scientific information that's right before you.
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post #545 of 585 Old 10-16-2012, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

I'm not coming with any belief, what I have cited to you is from folks with extensive knowledge about this stuff. You guys are just in here trying to defend an expenditure. You reject the scientific information that's right before you.

We're still waiting to see the science from you.
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post #546 of 585 Old 10-16-2012, 02:44 PM
 
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We're still waiting to see the science from you.

Really, I thought some of you wanted me banned!!confused.gif
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post #547 of 585 Old 10-16-2012, 02:59 PM
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Well, even your so called science proves that HT infrasounds are not harmful. The spl's and duration are not even loud and long enough to cause annoyance and or distraction, which BTW, is not harmful even if it did.The purpose of this thread is for HT, nothing else.
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post #548 of 585 Old 10-16-2012, 04:20 PM
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How about peer reviewed scientific studies? How about referencing something other than a company who's purpose is to sell this stuff to the military. Do we really expect a neutral approach or one that is slanted towards the earning of profits by selling their ability to "test" these systems? What else do you expect them to say? Everything is like a promotion.
If you are IN FACT searching the scientific literature, show the articles, with references, so we can check them.
Put up time for you sir.
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post #549 of 585 Old 10-16-2012, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Really, I thought some of you wanted me banned!!confused.gif

Perhaps some of us would like you banned, but you've never heard me call for that. I actually find your unique warped, loopy sense of logic oddly amusing.
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post #550 of 585 Old 10-16-2012, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Really, I thought some of you wanted me banned!!confused.gif

Perhaps some of us would like you banned, but you've never heard me call for that. I actually find your unique warped, loopy sense of logic oddly amusing.

He's cheap entertainment much like that guy who spent hundreds of dollars on cables and then waxes them just to run discount speakers on his laptop.
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post #551 of 585 Old 10-16-2012, 06:20 PM
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He's cheap entertainment much like that guy who spend hundreds of dollars on cables and waxes them just to run discount speakers on his laptop.
That's it. A kook. An oddball.
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post #552 of 585 Old 10-16-2012, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

I'm not coming with any belief, what I have cited to you is from folks with extensive knowledge about this stuff. You guys are just in here trying to defend an expenditure. You reject the scientific information that's right before you.

Anecdotes do not equal science....

Life is good.
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post #553 of 585 Old 10-17-2012, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Well, even your so called science proves that HT infrasounds are not harmful. The spl's and duration are not even loud and long enough to cause annoyance and or distraction, which BTW, is not harmful even if it did.The purpose of this thread is for HT, nothing else.



If that is true, then why do posters complain about the wife yelling at them to turn the system down when the wife is not even in the AV room?
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post #554 of 585 Old 10-17-2012, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

If that is true, then why do posters complain about the wife yelling at them to turn the system down when the wife is not even in the AV room?

If you have a wife that complains the theater is not the cause!

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post #555 of 585 Old 10-17-2012, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhan1000 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

I'm not coming with any belief, what I have cited to you is from folks with extensive knowledge about this stuff. You guys are just in here trying to defend an expenditure. You reject the scientific information that's right before you.

Anecdotes do not equal science....


It is a good thing that this is not a "science" forum.

This is just the plain old AVS forum. It is not the AVS "Science" forum. AVS is the name of a business (like Best Buy)!
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post #556 of 585 Old 10-17-2012, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

If that is true, then why do posters complain about the wife yelling at them to turn the system down when the wife is not even in the AV room?

If you have a wife that complains the theater is not the cause!



Do you have any science to back that up?biggrin.gif
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post #557 of 585 Old 10-17-2012, 07:48 AM
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We are not using science in this thread. biggrin.gif
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post #558 of 585 Old 10-17-2012, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

If you have a wife that complains the theater is not the cause!
My wife always sits on a sub during demo scenes. I wonder if that's why she supports my upgrades with a smile.

Stephen.

Chances are very good that I was drinking when I posted the above.

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post #559 of 585 Old 10-17-2012, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sb1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

If you have a wife that complains the theater is not the cause!
My wife always sits on a sub during demo scenes. I wonder if that's why she supports my upgrades with a smile.


TMI. eek.gif
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post #560 of 585 Old 10-17-2012, 02:07 PM
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TMI. eek.gif
It makes a great case for content below 20hz.wink.gif

Stephen.

Chances are very good that I was drinking when I posted the above.

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post #561 of 585 Old 10-17-2012, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Well, even your so called science proves that HT infrasounds are not harmful. The spl's and duration are not even loud and long enough to cause annoyance and or distraction, which BTW, is not harmful even if it did.The purpose of this thread is for HT, nothing else.

What do you mean? If I only need 150 dB, why that's only a litlle over 400 times the power to achieve reference, plus enough drivers with enough excursion to use that much power. Doesn't everybody have that?
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post #562 of 585 Old 10-17-2012, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

What do you mean? If I only need 150 dB, why that's only a litlle over 400 times the power to achieve reference, plus enough drivers with enough excursion to use that much power. Doesn't everybody have that?

My next purchase is the matterhorn. Oh wait, DIY with 50 sealed 18's!

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post #563 of 585 Old 10-17-2012, 03:17 PM
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Oops bad math. Closer to the 4000 times power to get from 150 dB to 1590. Probably about 3200 times power. No big deal.
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post #564 of 585 Old 10-17-2012, 03:27 PM
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My business partner and I back in the 70's used to take pride in the fact that our subwoofers could make drunks puke on the dance floor when they were stupid enough to linger in front in them. Does that count? Ha, ha ...
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That is great....too much to drink plus infrasonics equals upchuck.

By the way, my memory is hazy but I believe that if you are close to the Cape Kennedy launch of certain rockets, the infrasonics (and.or SPL's) will kill you.......anyone want to volunteer?smile.gif
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post #565 of 585 Old 10-20-2012, 08:36 PM
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We did two tests tonight at the Gorilla83 meet. Mixed results on one test and definitive results on the other.


We had three Submersive HPS. One F2 HP, two traditional dual opposed Submersive HPs.



Here was the uneq'ed frequency response in Gorilla83's room as we listened to the three submersives. FR captured 10x's and averaged at MLP.
SeatonSubmersiveHPtriplesFRgraph-noEQ-programmode2.jpg


For the Tracks we used the most recent Incredible Hulk cop car smash scene and a snippet of the Bass I love you clip. We played both clips back to back with a minidsp engaging a HPF at 18hz, and then with the HPF removed. Then we blind tested the two tracks again and had people vote on which A / B replay had deeper bass.


On the incredible Hulk Scene 12 out of 14 people voted correctly in blind voting done by show of hands with eyes closed.

On the Bassotronics - Bass I Love You track (which contained 15 and 7hz content) - nobody could tell and we didn't even blind vote because nobody knew and everyone admitted so before the voting.


I hold a ported sub preference -- generally, and I could tell pretty clearly (and was right) from my seating position which A/B had deeper content on the Hulk footsteps and cop car smash scene because my pant legs shook a bit more and my body seemed to feel a bit more tactile feedback. I voted correctly.

However, On the Bass I Love You Track I couldn't have determined the difference if my life depended on it from that A/B demo.

Interesting to be sure. 12 of 14 indicates that at least on at least some demo clips people can definately tell the difference. We will do additional testing at the Omaha Home Theater tour happening next weekend in at least two theaters --- HuskerOmaha's with four UXL18 drivers, and Desertdome with eight 15" drivers in an infinite baffle setup.

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post #566 of 585 Old 10-20-2012, 10:09 PM
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Archaea, at least in your opinion, was the infrasonic preferable, or just noticeable?

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Augustine's Law: "The last 10% of performance generates one-third of the cost and two-thirds of the problems."

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post #567 of 585 Old 10-20-2012, 10:18 PM
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Haha I'm amazed that there is still any debate about the ability to hear below 20hz, or the purpose of <20hz content. These were settled a year ago! (click the links in the quotes for LOTS of reading material)

Facts from new tests on hearing (since the Fletcher/Munson curves were established in 1933):
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post


Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post


Purpose of <20hz content in movies:
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Originally Posted by nube View Post


Glad to see the most recent GTG's test of "infrasonic" content. Another crowd pleaser is to just use REW to generate test tones at various frequencies and levels to note at what dB people can hear each.
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post #568 of 585 Old 10-20-2012, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

We did two tests tonight at the Gorilla83 meet. Mixed results on one test and definitive results on the other.
We had three Submersive HPS. One F2 HP, two traditional dual opposed Submersive HPs.

Here was the uneq'ed frequency response in Gorilla83's room as we listened to the three submersives. FR captured 10x's and averaged at MLP.
SeatonSubmersiveHPtriplesFRgraph-noEQ-programmode2.jpg
For the Tracks we used the most recent Incredible Hulk cop car smash scene and a snippet of the Bass I love you clip. We played both clips back to back with a minidsp engaging a HPF at 18hz, and then with the HPF removed. Then we blind tested the two tracks again and had people vote on which A / B replay had deeper bass.
On the incredible Hulk Scene 12 out of 14 people voted correctly in blind voting done by show of hands with eyes closed.
On the Bassotronics - Bass I Love You track (which contained 15 and 7hz content) - nobody could tell and we didn't even blind vote because nobody knew and everyone admitted so before the voting.
I hold a ported sub preference -- generally, and I could tell pretty clearly (and was right) from my seating position which A/B had deeper content on the Hulk footsteps and cop car smash scene because my pant legs shook a bit more and my body seemed to feel a bit more tactile feedback. I voted correctly.
However, On the Bass I Love You Track I couldn't have determined the difference if my life depended on it from that A/B demo.
Interesting to be sure. 12 of 14 indicates that at least on at least some demo clips people can definately tell the difference. We will do additional testing at the Omaha Home Theater tour happening next weekend in at least two theaters --- HuskerOmaha's with four UXL18 drivers, and Desertdome with eight 15" drivers in an infinite baffle setup.
C'mon man!!!

This thread isn't about "noticing" infrasonics. The important question for this thread is: "Did anybody DIE today?"

If nobody died, we can move on to the less significant questions: "Who puked?" and "How many "Brown Notes" were recorded?"

biggrin.gif

Craig

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

My System

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post #569 of 585 Old 10-20-2012, 10:33 PM
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How about lawsuits? Any lawsuits?
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post #570 of 585 Old 10-20-2012, 11:01 PM
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How many depends were worn and/or needed to be changed?
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