Purpose of flat response below 20Hz - Why does it matter? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

lmao....nice attack Its a picture from 6 years ago....

I had no idea whose room it was or where, except that you thought it would be a useful example and I agree with that premise. (Though we think it's a useful example for different things. I think it's a useful example for what not to do.)

If that's your room, is it the one with the high-inductance I-B setup?

Since you've subsequently identified the room as yours, I really like the wall color. Have you thought about paining that cabinet to match? It sticks out in the picture at least.

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1. I wanted bass in a 35x50x12 room. I wanted a zero foot print, can not have subs on the floor and have the room look like Im still in college

So basically it was all about the deep bass, and who cares about midbass performance or how colored the mids are? Fair enough.

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2. Im not looking for ultimate system there because the room is a family room meant for fun, hosting events (football and 40 people). I wanted bass during movies with the footprint.

You're the only one talking about "ultimate." I'm setting the bar rather lower, at "competent." And that mains setup doesn't clear the bar.

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4. Its a family room, it hosts parties, it has kids over for pool parties. You honestly think its a room where speakers and subs can be on the floor at all?? Its not a bachelor pad, its not a student living space. It has to have style and speakers HAVE TO BE OUT OF THE WAY because the real world does not think they are remotely cool.

I agree generally that audio gear should be heard/felt and not seen. I don't want to see speakers, subwoofers, electronics, etc. in a room either.

That means it requires more thought (and often expensive custom work or time-consuming DIY) to put together a room incorporating high-fidelity audio.

It does not mean that incompetence should be excused or justified.

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No one is making ULF a priority OVER other ranges.

BS. I could point to any number of pictures that have been posted here over time, but I don't want to look for one when this one suffices quite well to prove my point:



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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Some of us just want it all.

Where's the "all" in that front stage? Unless you mean that the crappy subs' excessive inductance is masked by all the midrange and treble diffraction. But I bet you can really feel that bass!

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Again its a choice, you are posting that people should not have that choice and they should follow you only...that does not make sense to me.

Again, Penn, you really need to work on your interpretation of plain text. As is usually the case when you reply to me, I never wrote what you're ascribing to me. It's you and not me, because others don't have that same problem. 'm

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The only truth here is that.

1. There is content below 15Hz.
2. There are many ways to obtain performance at the lowest octave and some designs cost the same as one PB13.

1. Depends on the program material one enjoys.

2. True, with the caveat that the cheaper ways are usually pretty crappy up higher because they're crude long-coil, no-shorting-ring drivers with very high inductance. So one needs to also put multiple higher-quality (and expensive, if one wants them to keep up with the ULF) subwoofers in the room to cover 40Hz and up if one cares about fidelity.

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If people care about that then they can bypass you and JPC and ask Bosso, myself or many others that can offer solutions if they want them.

"Offer solutions?" Get off your high horse. It doesn't take much thought, just volume displacement and power.

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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

btw, Feel free to post pictures of your perfect family room so I can learn from them.

Nah. I've recently posted pictures of my current, temporary system's bass measurements, however. The subs are an XLS12+PR in the corner and two KEF HTB2's. (Yes, ultimate SPL is limited, but the bass is scaled appropriately to the small mains.) The setup methodology is Geddes'. For your convenience, I'll reproduce that measurement below:



For the record, the mains are all low-diffraction designs in free space, and the coincident tweeters are all at the same height, crossing in front of the listening position.

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post #92 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 01:39 PM
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I want pictures of the room and speakers. Then I can decide of the whole package is worth the measured response. Just like you are concerned with content and what others might like or not like, many are concerned with overall looks just not a graph

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post #93 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 01:47 PM
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[quote=DS-21;20706998]Do you have any examples of interesting program material - which is to say something that's not a plotless special effects wonder or an Erich Kunzel "sonic spectacular" disk that has ordinance going off to cover up how insipid the interpretation/playing is - that has much content below 16Hz? [quote=DS-21;20706998]

Some of us couldn't care less what's in some Transformers or Hulk movie because, well, that kind of program material is not going to enter our homes.

Periodically, I come across a scene where nothing physical is happening but there is serious tingling on my skin, clothes, seating... The director uses it for a sense of dread or impending action. Great dramatic effect.



Yeah! In the ceiling

NO BOXES...27 liters of displacement, only 2000Watts needed for great bass down to 10Hz. This is better then 6 SVS PB13 subs and it extends lower then they do.....oh wait....it costs about the same as ONE PB13, less then JL Fathoms, less then Seatons submersives, less then the Captivator.....NO BRAINER there.

Find the subwoofer

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post #94 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 01:48 PM
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Here is a picture of behind my screen, when the screen goes up, it is all covered. I also like hiding the speakers and subs. BTW, I took the speaker grills off as well.


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amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
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Surrounds- Dual stacked BFM W10's
subs-12 SI 18's ported 6hz.
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post #95 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 02:05 PM
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For those who want < 15Hz content there are many ways to obtain it and there are many experts on line to help you figure it all out.

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post #96 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 02:45 PM
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I get more spl's on FOTP when the plain rolls than I do with any of the scenes in WOTW. WOTW is a great bass movie, but I only hit 120db max. I get 123db on FOTP
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post #97 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 02:48 PM
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Hey! Central Valley peeps! *waves*



Somehow I think the thread is diverging just a bit from the original topic.

Can we move ahead from the personal attacks and I dunno... help out the OP? Or is there NO answer to that?

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post #98 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 03:16 PM
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Is there enough room under the tent for both POV's?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #99 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 03:18 PM
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Is there enough room under the tent for both POV's?

For many of us there is room. For some, not so much.
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post #100 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 03:20 PM
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Is there enough room under the tent for both POV's?

I'd say there is, probably for more than just two POV's as well. I'll bring the beer.

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post #101 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 03:20 PM
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Its 100% choice so Im not sure why there is a debate ever month about this.

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post #102 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 03:23 PM
 
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Is there enough room under the tent for both POV's?

Depends on who pitches the tent I suppose?
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post #103 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 03:24 PM
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Its 100% choice so Im not sure why there is a debate ever month about this.

This.

The government hasn't started issuing out subwoofers to the general public while at the same time eliminating all competition for such. Well, maybe just not yet.

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post #104 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 03:29 PM
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With the looming budget cuts, I think we would be stuck with these for sub's.


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post #105 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 03:46 PM
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With the looming budget cuts, I think we would be stuck with these for sub's.


Add potato salad, baked beans, and a Polish dog! Oh, and a brewski.
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post #106 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 03:50 PM
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Re: The diffraction discussion.

I have also noticed (years ago) Penn's mains in his theater parked far enough back on his subs to cause diffraction, so it isn't just an issue in the family room. I do wish that people would pay more attention to mains placement in respect to diffraction. I see it so often that I have pretty much given up on commenting about it, until now.

That said, most folks have to make lifestyle concessions over sound quality considerations.

Please don't take this as an attack, it is not. Penn already knows I respect his contributions to the community. Mains placement is just kind of a sore spot with me, although my room is far from perfect.

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post #107 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 03:50 PM
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Add potato salad, baked beans, and a Polish dog! Oh, and a brewski.

LOL, I believe you put those on the passive radiator and take bites to adjust the weight!
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post #108 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 03:56 PM
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Add potato salad, baked beans, and a Polish dog! Oh, and a brewski.

This sounds like a recipe for the brown note.

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post #109 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Its 100% choice so Im not sure why there is a debate ever month about this.

This thread is awesome and very informative, especially for new members. Some of you folks assert that anything less than a system that is capable of pressurization below 20hz is not worth having. I know this is unintentional. I know some of you just want to explore this hobby to the umpteenth degree. That is fine. However, it distorts real world performance and tastes. I wish there was a thread like this when I started out on this hobby. I would have saved myself a lot of headaches trying different subs and save some cash in the process. I have quite a few of the demo discs. They are not my favorite movies and watching them for a nano-second of infrasonic bursts can be a chore. The Empire is the best sub I have ever owned based on reliability and sound. However, it still gets dismissed for it's design which ignores the 1/10 of 1% of sub 20 material. It hardly matters to some that it "EXCELS" at recreating the 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of listening material(music and movies). Great thread!

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post #110 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 04:19 PM
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Damn. This thread is SO bad-ass that we got a special visit from Morris Chestnut.


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post #111 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 04:46 PM
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Sigh!!! What is with the silly personal questions???....... I proved that your picture of a big ported DIY sub was grossly misleading and you take this approach. I have 2 little girls, now 2 and 4... The IB system was built 6 years ago...you do the math and it was not a permission thing (it was a logical thing), it was simply an understanding of what having a family and bedtime means something to some of us. There is no need for loud movies at night in the family room IB or not, any good bass system is going to wake up babies



You are not the only person in the world that has that problem!





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If you want to play this personal game you should post that you also know I have a custom HT room, with twin sealed LMS5400s and 8000Watts + AV15X sealed subs to smooth out the in room response. No reason to use the family room when I have another room that is 100% custom HT room and its at the other end of the house > 60 feet away from the girls bedrooms = a lot less bass = they stay sleeping

If you are going to have comments about other systems (including personal OT that is meaningless to the discussion) then I would hope that you post pictures of your setup. It only seems fair considering what you posted already about others.



There you go again. All you need is a pair of LMS-5400 and 8000 watts of power. A little bit different system than say a single PB-13!
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post #112 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 04:50 PM
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Damn. This thread is SO bad-ass that we got a special visit from Morris Chestnut.






LL
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post #113 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 04:51 PM
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While we're here and penngray brought it to the table, what are your reasons for not liking the IB approach, bosso (if this is true and I'm remembering correctly)?

Coupling a massive-displacement subwoofer to the super structure of a wooden frame home results in exactly what many IB fans allege that box subs do.

IB placement is limited and typically a one-shot stab. It's not likely it will be moved after installation.

The rear wave is a problem.

The weather in my attic is inhospitable to a gila monster let alone subwoofer drivers.

I like the industrial design aspect of subwoofers. I like to change them accordingly, as it's basically a wide open aspect of the hobby.

Still, I think it's an excellent choice, especially vs the huge boxes that low tuned resonant systems call for. Just not my own favorite way to skin a cat.

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post #114 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

This.

The government hasn't started issuing out subwoofers to the general public while at the same time eliminating all competition for such. Well, maybe just not yet.



The government would place limits on amplifier power. Think about incandesent light bulbs being banned starting next year!
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post #115 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Here is a picture of behind my screen, when the screen goes up, it is all covered. I also like hiding the speakers and subs. BTW, I took the speaker grills off as well.





But what will you own 6 months from now?
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post #116 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 04:58 PM
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JPC, you have won me over. Thank you for that.

I've been watching Steven Seagal movies everyday for the past two weeks. Both US2 and Half Past Dead, included.

Steven Seagal would break the arms and stab the stomachs of ANY subwoofer we try to bring into the kitchen with the master.

"Nobody beats me in the kitchen."


Hell... I'm still waiting for Steven's 'Letterbox 2000'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d82j_Qfp_VA

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post #117 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

The government would place limits on amplifier power. Think about incandesent light bulbs being banned starting next year!

They would probably issue us with some circa late 90's Atlantic Technology THX Ultra subwoofer or something with a 300w plate amp. It's rated to extend inroom down to 30hz!

Yeah!

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post #118 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 05:01 PM
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But what will you own 6 months from now?


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post #119 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I know what you are saying and the outside strikes are more impressive than the inside strikes but many don't get anything for the inside strikes but it does create waves and pressure.

and


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Oh... In my room, it is the shots from the inside that are 'better' but they are also a lot louder too, iirc.




Now I am a bit confused. The inside sounds are better or the outside sounds are more impressive.

I think we need a few more subjective opinions on the WOTW lighting scene. I have to take a listen to that scene again on my own system.





Quote:
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There are some inside scenes that are 15hz to 20hz as well.


I will comment on that later on.
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post #120 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 05:13 PM
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To be quite honest, I try and not push that particular scene too hard because I do not use any filter on my LLT and that part is ALL <10hz stuff and my LLT's are tuned to 11hz.

Yup. I have no idea what I am doing. You heard it here first.

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