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post #121 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

To be quite honest, I try and not push that particular scene too hard because I do not use any filter on my LLT and that part is ALL <10hz stuff and my LLT's are tuned to 11hz.



How do you push a scene too hard? I tend to set the volume to a certain level and forget it.

For WOTW, maybe a -5 dB below reference for the DTS version. That is a nice semi loud volume level.

Does anyone really play WOTW at full reference level?
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post #122 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 04:37 PM
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Check out that sloppy guy, Randy Thom. Dude has no clue what the spectra is of any of the effects he designs.

Still, a LOT of top movie producers are allowing him to clog up the headroom of the format with irrelevant, unmonitored, unintended artifacts.


Mars Needs Moms (2011) Sound Designer
Mars Needs Moms (2011) Rerecording Mixer (Skywalker Sound)

Despicable Me (2010) Sound Design Consultant (Skywalker Sound)

How to Train Your Dragon (2010) Sound Design

Percy Jackson and the Olympians: The Lightning Thief (2010) Rerecording Mixer (Skywalker Sound)
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Coraline (2009) Sound Designer
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Disney's A Christmas Carol (2009) Sound Designer
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Ice Age: Dawn of the Dinosaurs (2009) Supervising Sound Designer/ Rerecording Mixer

Bolt (2008) Sound Designer
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Dr. Seuss' Horton Hears a Who (2008) Supervising Sound Editor
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Madagascar: Escape 2 Africa (2008) Sound Designer

Standard Operating Procedure (2008) Sound Supervisor

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Beowulf (2007) Sound Re-Recording Mixer (Skywalker Sound )
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Enchanted (2007) Supervising Sound Editor
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Here's a recent film: HTTYD with an example of the "unintended" ULF that Mr. Thom incompetently left on the soundtrack.



Does this <20 Hz tidbit matter? Sheesh... even my neighbors across the street could answer that one without leaving their living room.

Sarcasm aside, thanks go to Mr. Thom who has pushed the envelope of the state of the art of foley and sound design for over 30 years, and who, among his many other prestigious awards and accolades, holds spots on our own 5 STAR BASS list for 3 different movies. Those who would accuse him of inadequate monitoring, ignorance of spectral content, or levy any other lame allegation should really pay closer attention to the state of the art and less attention to their egos.

Bosso

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post #123 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

JPC, you have won me over. Thank you for that.

I've been watching Steven Seagal movies everyday for the past two weeks. Both US2 and Half Past Dead, included.

Steven Seagal would break the arms and stab the stomachs of ANY subwoofer we try to bring into the kitchen with the master.

"Nobody beats me in the kitchen."


Hell... I'm still waiting for Steven's 'Letterbox 2000'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d82j_Qfp_VA



I own most of the earlier classic Seagal movies. US1 and US2 are the best of the bunch.
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post #124 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Here's a recent film: HTTYD with an example of the "unintended" ULF that Mr. Thom incompetently left on the soundtrack.



Does this <20 Hz tidbit matter? Sheesh... even my neighbors across the street could answer that one without leaving their living room.

Sarcasm aside, thanks go to Mr. Thom who has pushed the envelope of the state of the art of foley and sound design for over 30 years, and who, among his many other prestigious awards and accolades, holds spots on our own 5 STAR BASS list for 3 different movies. Those who would accuse him of inadequate monitoring, ignorance of spectral content, or levy any other lame allegation should really pay closer attention to the state of the art and less attention to their egos.

Bosso

Bosso




How do they monitor sub 10 Hz content on the main channels (AKA bass not the dedicated LFE channel)?

Are they flat to 3 Hz on the main channels, or are they 20 dB down (or whatever) at 3 Hz?
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post #125 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

How do you push a scene too hard? I tend to set the volume to a certain level and forget it.

For WOTW, maybe a -5 dB below reference for the DTS version. That is a nice semi loud volume level.

Does anyone really play WOTW at full reference level?

Well, I sometimes have my overall LFE elevated but not so much recently. I don't really watch at reference level either but the reason why I am so cautious is because I am somewhat attached to my lovely 18's and they don't make them anymore. Nor can I depend on a recone or replacement if I were to break one. I mentioned earlier that I run my vented enclosure with no highpass filter. Just takes the wrong day to make my life even worse. No thank you. Maybe when I am 100% sealed I will be more aggressive with that kind of material but my brain tells me to be cautious when applicable.


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I own most of the earlier classic Seagal movies. US1 and US2 are the best of the bunch.

Me too! You sir, have fantastic taste in action movies.

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post #126 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

How do they monitor sub 10 Hz content on the main channels (AKA bass not the dedicated LFE channel)?

Are they flat to 3 Hz on the main channels, or are they 20 dB down (or whatever) at 3 Hz?

That would be a great question for...... Randy Thom!

Get on it, JPC. We're doing all the work in here.

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post #127 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Your reference is this.....
"I have the EP 4000 in bridged mode without any low cut filter ( per Jeff )"

You do realize that is talking about the 30Hz low cut filter switch on the EP itself and nothing to do with an HPF requirements the Cap needs




http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post20711392


"I also asked Jeff about the subsonic filter. He said it'd be nice to have one, but not probably necessary. He said try it without it first and see if you mind - he said I didn't have to fear damaging the driver with the amp I was using. At worst I might get a muddier sound on some clips with ULF below the tuning frequency. I need to research cheap subsonic filters...I like the price of the FMODs for $25, but the reviews are all over the board!?!?"
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post #128 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Damn. This thread is SO bad-ass that we got a special visit from Morris Chestnut.


Smart ass. I posted under "mdm1699" but got banned for saying that I did not find SVS subs to be musical(after owning 4). I love this thread because it stresses dynamics, full audio range, and economics. Sometimes this forum just feels like a forum dedicated to sub 20hz. I think this convo reminds us of what the forum is about.

Politics is like religion. You never know who you serve.
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post #129 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 05:44 PM
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Yes, in general a ported design does need protection below the tuning point because the driver will unload. This is not a new discussion though, its been posted 100s of times. Comercial designs generally will have the SSF built into the amp so its not a topic on this forum but anyone that builds subwoofers knows there is a HPF requirement when building ported subs. Since the Cap is sold as a passive design and we can throw pro amp power at them then yes protection is required IF the model of the design dictates it.

Im not sure how any of that matters when answering the OPs question. He asked why does < 20Hz matter and the simple fact is that there is content below 20hz even content below 10Hz. "Content" is defined simply as content, it does not matter if someone thinks its crap content or not, its simply content.

Again, I choose to have the ability to play that content in my room. I also accept that you do not choose to have that ability because of budget, tools available, room constraints or any other reason.

Validating either of our choices is not even needed, what is needed is just the fact that there is content down low and people need to decide how important it is to them.

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post #130 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Validating either of our choices is not even needed, what is needed is just the fact that there is content down low and people need to decide how important it is to them.


Well that's nice and reasonable. Much better than the elitist and pretentious below. BTW, I thought you retired from AVS.
I believe you have much to offer the forum Penn, the chest beating below can stay retired though.


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Once you have the best you simply never go back. All other systems are simply lacking, members of this very, very small club understand what Im talking about. The rest will never really get it.

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post #131 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 06:52 PM
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Bored traveling, couldnt resist the same old topic....little addictions are always hard to break

Sorry for the chest beating but the real point is that once people experience ultra ULF designs its hard to go back. Its like replacing a 5 year old PC. You never knew what the real difference in speed would be but once you are use to the new one, try going back to a slow machine. Its all about experience and reference POVs.

I suggest people experience as much as they can then form an opinion.

I ask everyone this. If you could have 4 Funky Waves LMS5400 sealed design in your room would you say no?? Then would you EQ the subs to have a filter at 20Hz to block < 20Hz content??

I think there isnt a question that if budgets and room allow for it people would have the best possible solution period. Yes, I would say 4 of those are pretty much hard to beat when $$$ are no object.

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post #132 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

That would be a great question for...... Randy Thom!

Get on it, JPC. We're doing all the work in here.


Here is what Randy said on a public forum. Trouble is, he thinks that the low frequencies should be placed on the .1 LFE channel!

----------------------


Re: Building in Low Freq


Sounds in the range of 30 to 80 hertz are used fairly often in films
these days. Some would say too often. It can be a good way to make a
moment powerful without making it seem too loud. We tend to associate
very low frequencies with dramatically powerful events... like
earthquakes... and earthquakes are rarely loud. These very low
frequency sounds are often derived from sounds already in the mix.
There are hardware and software "sub harmonic generators" that will
into which you can feed an explosion, or anything that already has
some significant low frequency content, and the sub generator will
produce lower harmonics of that sound. And sometimes the 30 to 80
hertz sounds are produced on their own. For those who might not be
aware of it, the ".1" in a "5.1" sound system is for these extremely
low frequencies.
Of course, many theaters won't reproduce those low
frequencies accurately, and some won't reproduce them at all, so it
isn't wise to depend TOO much on them.

It's generally considered a bad idea to have continuous sub material
in a long sequence. Much better to use it sparingly. That way it has
more impact when you do use it.

Randy
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post #133 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 07:03 PM
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cool quote. I agree with the idea of not having long sequences. My best experiences with bass performance is when there is tight/sharp sequencies then silence and then more sequencies. The impact is incredible.

Another question... if < 20Hz doesn't matter then why do we have a sticky listing the best bass movies?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1333462

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post #134 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 07:16 PM
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For the people that do do ULF: how about the *flat* part of the question in the subject line?
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post #135 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

cool quote. I agree with the idea of not having long sequences. My best experiences with bass performance is when there is tight/sharp sequencies then silence and then more sequencies. The impact is incredible.



I agree. A good example would be the safe explosion scene of The Italian Job. Silence, then baaboom!





Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Another question... if < 20Hz doesn't matter then why do we have a sticky listing the best bass movies?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1333462



Why is it that the old bass thread was given up for dead? Even now, there is limited information on the new thread.

Also, who made up the rule that the best bass is defined as the best infra? There is no Acadamy Award category for best infrasound!
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post #136 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReneV View Post

For the people that do do ULF: how about the *flat* part of the question in the subject line?


The better question would be flat to what frequency at what SPL level when measured at the listening position?
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post #137 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

The better question would be flat to what frequency at what SPL level when measured at the listening position?

I had hoped we could leave it to the ULF people to say what the better question might be.
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post #138 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

How do they monitor sub 10 Hz content on the main channels (AKA bass not the dedicated LFE channel)?

Are they flat to 3 Hz on the main channels, or are they 20 dB down (or whatever) at 3 Hz?

They monitor all of the content of the soundtrack visually, the same way I do, or did you really think I could somehow know there was strong 2-6 Hz content in the HTTYD scene, or any other scene, just by listening to the soundtrack, without SpecLab?

Since <20 Hz is

How do you imagine they sync the onset of an explosion to the video of the explosion? By listening and punching in by ear? Not.

With modern soundtrack editing software you can look at any slice of BW, zoom, change levels, monitor dBFS by color or bars or any number of ways, monitor peaks, sync transient peaks with a single frame of video, etc., etc., etc.

By selecting a part of the soundtrack, then selecting; Frequency Spectrum View, you can then "Select different parts of the audio file to apply actions to".

One of those many "actions" options is a high pass filter. That simple action would eliminate any possibility of "unintended" ULF.

If ULF were not possible to monitor... well, never mind. My head's about to explode just having to bring this to your attention at all, much less writing in detail for a person who isn't reading anyway.

For anyone else who's actually interested in the facts of the matter, not only is ALL audio content able to be precisely monitored in every way, it's imperative to a good soundtrack, to faithfully encoding and mixing the effects that sound designers go to great lengths to create and to avoid exceeding the digital red line.

Bosso
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post #139 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReneV View Post

For the people that do do ULF: how about the *flat* part of the question in the subject line?

Flat response at the listening position is imperative to hearing what's on the soundtrack.

SpecLab also helps illustrate this by comparing the digital direct feed to the mic'd version from the LP.

Before anyone gets all flustered, everyone is free to leave an untended, wild +/- 10dB FR, or a roll off at 20 Hz, or to bump the sub +15dB hot. I'm just answering the question.

Frequency response non-linearity (which includes early roll off) is distortion. Lots of folks like non-linearities of all sorts, but that doesn't negate the fact that they're distortions nonetheless.

Bosso
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post #140 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Flat response at the listening position is imperative to hearing what's on the soundtrack.

SpecLab also helps illustrate this by comparing the digital direct feed to the mic'd version from the LP.

Before anyone gets all flustered, everyone is free to leave an untended, wild +/- 10dB FR, or a roll off at 20 Hz, or to bump the sub +15dB hot. I'm just answering the question.

Frequency response non-linearity (which includes early roll off) is distortion. Lots of folks like non-linearities of all sorts, but that doesn't negate the fact that they're distortions nonetheless.

Bosso

If I could fit all that into one sentence... I'd make it my new sig. Well put, Bosso.

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post #141 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Flat response at the listening position is imperative to hearing what's on the soundtrack.

While we're not talking about *hearing*, I take it your answer was meant to mean *fidelity*, bossobass: why speculate about (perception of) distortion when we might as well be accurate!?
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post #142 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

They monitor all of the content of the soundtrack visually, the same way I do, or did you really think I could somehow know there was strong 2-6 Hz content in the HTTYD scene, or any other scene, just by listening to the soundtrack, without SpecLab?

Since <20 Hz is

How do you imagine they sync the onset of an explosion to the video of the explosion? By listening and punching in by ear? Not.

With modern soundtrack editing software you can look at any slice of BW, zoom, change levels, monitor dBFS by color or bars or any number of ways, monitor peaks, sync transient peaks with a single frame of video, etc., etc., etc.

By selecting a part of the soundtrack, then selecting; Frequency Spectrum View, you can then "Select different parts of the audio file to apply actions to".

One of those many "actions" options is a high pass filter. That simple action would eliminate any possibility of "unintended" ULF.

If ULF were not possible to monitor... well, never mind. My head's about to explode just having to bring this to your attention at all, much less writing in detail for a person who isn't reading anyway.


Bosso



By monitoring obviously I meant listening with your ears.

No one gives a crap about how audio looks on a screen any more than they care about how video sounds!




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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

For anyone else who's actually interested in the facts of the matter, not only is ALL audio content able to be precisely monitored in every way, it's imperative to a good soundtrack, to faithfully encoding and mixing the effects that sound designers go to great lengths to create and to avoid exceeding the digital red line.

Bosso



Randy seems to think that a sound designer does not have that kind of power, but what does he know!

Per Randy:

"Don't get me wrong, I love the fact that there is an individual, the Director, who gets to determine, to the degree physically possible, what the movie is going to look and sound like. I hate working for committees. And obviously it isn't appropriate for everybody working on a film to be constantly tugging the Director's sleeve with suggestions. That said . . . While it's considered entirely appropriate for the Production Designer and Director of Photography to make suggestions about diverse aspects of the movie, it flirts with professional suicide for the Composer or Sound Designer to do the same."
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post #143 of 585 Old 07-18-2011, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Why is it that the old bass thread was given up for dead? Even now, there is limited information on the new thread.

Also, who made up the rule that the best bass is defined as the best infra? There is no Acadamy Award category for best infrasound!

Its a sticky and there is a good list of movies for those who do care about it. There are other active lists online. Again the point is that there are those who care about sub 20Hz content enough to gather movie data and organize them. that alone answers the OPs question.

As for any awards. Again, why does content have to have the stamp of approval from the academy or some people online. If someone likes HTTYD ( My kids and I do) and they like the bass (my kids and I do) then why not just acknowledge that its okay for them to like it?? Why do people always have to approve what others like or dislike?

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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

By monitoring obviously I meant listening with your ears.

No one gives a crap about how audio looks on a screen any more than they care about how video sounds!








Randy seems to think that a sound designer does not have that kind of power, but what does he know!

Per Randy:

"Don't get me wrong, I love the fact that there is an individual, the Director, who gets to determine, to the degree physically possible, what the movie is going to look and sound like. I hate working for committees. And obviously it isn't appropriate for everybody working on a film to be constantly tugging the Director's sleeve with suggestions. That said . . . While it's considered entirely appropriate for the Production Designer and Director of Photography to make suggestions about diverse aspects of the movie, it flirts with professional suicide for the Composer or Sound Designer to do the same."

Again, its all subjective opinion, the only thing that actually matters is what is in the content, intented or even unintended.

If the content has something below 20Hz, below 10Hz. People like me would like to experience that content. I recommend anyone that has not experienced a system that produces atleast 110dB at 10Hz, try to experience one THEN make a decision.

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Again, its all subjective opinion, the only thing that actually matters is what is in the content, intented or even unintended.

If the content has something below 20Hz, below 10Hz. People like me would like to experience that content. I recommend anyone that has not experienced a system that produces atleast 110dB at 10Hz, try to experience one THEN make a decision.

I think that the point that DS is trying to make is that we may never own material that utilize that extension. Also, it can get expensive and time consuming. If we do own material that utilize that extension we may only hear it for less that 1% of the total time spent viewing movies/listening to music, if that much. I may be sincerely impressed with the ULF performance of your system. That does not mean that I like the dynamics or find the ULF performance necessary.

As for the ULF Movies thread, I don't think most people think that those are indeed the "best movies". Just the "best movies for ULF". Do we re-watch those "demo" movies or just the "demo" scenes?

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post #146 of 585 Old 07-19-2011, 04:44 AM
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This thread borders on fascinating. I'm really curious as to when we will discover who's opinion on whether sub 20hz matters is the right one. I.e., is it the ones who care about sub 20hz performance and therefore believe it matters and are willing to design their system to achieve this regardless of cost or size, or is it the ones who don't care about sub 20hz performance and therefore don't think it matters and therefore don't bother trying to achieve it? Hmmm...one of these opinions HAS to be right, right?

Where's ssabripo and his infamous popcorn jpg when you need him?

 

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Both matter, though one can never tell listening to some of you sub 20 posters. I wouldn't have experienced great subs if I never ventured down this road. However, it doesn't mean that a few words of caution is a bad thing. I am not sure why it makes some of us feel good about ourselves to make-believe that we are envied. This is a forum so there should be multiple perspectives.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

By monitoring obviously I meant listening with your ears.

No one gives a crap about how audio looks on a screen any more than they care about how video sounds!


Only you would attempt to mix ULF with your ears. (ROFLOL)

Of course, you'd need a subwoofer. Any plans to get one soon?





Quote:


Randy seems to think that a sound designer does not have that kind of power, but what does he know!

Per Randy:
"Don't get me wrong, I love the fact that there is an individual, the Director, who gets to determine, to the degree physically possible, what the movie is going to look and sound like. I hate working for committees. And obviously it isn't appropriate for everybody working on a film to be constantly tugging the Director's sleeve with suggestions. That said . . . While it's considered entirely appropriate for the Production Designer and Director of Photography to make suggestions about diverse aspects of the movie, it flirts with professional suicide for the Composer or Sound Designer to do the same."

I see, once again, you don't even know what he's saying here. Hey, but you keep posting, J. Sooner or later you'll convince someone you're right.

Let's see if we've got this JPC recording standards list right:

1) Mix in any sound effect. It's bandwidth is irrelevant because if there's <20 Hz content you can't hear it anyway and mistakes like that earn you a bonus and lots of future work on mega-million dollar blockbusters.

2) Put all of that ULF in the front channels so everyone will know it was a mistake.

3) Recommend a sub that rolls off at 25 Hz because that's all we can afford to mix the soundtrack with.

4) Always use spectrograms to prove your points because no one gives a crap about how audio looks on a screen.

5) When you get called on this lunatic production philosophy, quote Randy Thom and Ben Burtt out of context as proof that they follow the JPC method as well.

6) Clear the mantel for the Oscars.

Bosso
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post #149 of 585 Old 07-19-2011, 05:32 AM
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I think that the point that DS is trying to make is that we may never own material that utilize that extension. Also, it can get expensive and time consuming. If we do own material that utilize that extension we may only hear it for less that 1% of the total time spent viewing movies/listening to music, if that much. I may be sincerely impressed with the ULF performance of your system. That does not mean that I like the dynamics or find the ULF performance necessary.

DS point was that people sacrifice 30Hz to 80Hz when they try to obtain 10Hz to 30Hz performance. I post that its all choice and all that really matters is UNDERSTANDING and ACCEPTING compromises that might come with any design choice. If I had a hard on for the best response from 60Hz to 150Hz in my family room I could easily add sealed subs but I choose not to fuss over the nitty gritty in that room. You do realize that you are on an audio forum where the last 1% is fussed over 99.9% of the time? I mean there are people that go nuts over cables, DACs, Amps and so on so when you ask is the 1% worth it, you have to consider the audience. 99.999% of the population will not care...That is easily understood. I have 3 friends with BOSE systems and the enjoy their movies...more power too them but they also always love coming to my room knowing its better then going to a real movie theater.

You also are posting like we are demanding you to have ULF performance. None of us have said that. I will say give your self a month with a high performance ULF system then try and go back to another design. Until you have had the proper reference points you will never know what conclusions you will have. You may still say your okay without it and that may depend on the content you love but I will keep posting it ends up being just a choice.


Quote:


As for the ULF Movies thread, I don't think most people think that those are indeed the "best movies". Just the "best movies for ULF". Do we re-watch those "demo" movies or just the "demo" scenes?

Yes, everyone knows they are the best movies for ULF, not one post or opinion about them is trying to validate if they are quality movies (WOTW isnt a movie I will ever watch but it does have a great bass scene that can show off a great system). The list just exists and people can choose to enjoy the bass scenes.

I have a custom HT room, I have two custom DVDs to show many bass scenes. When I do a demo for friends Im definitely showing off those scenes so to answer your question about re-watching.....I say both. I have watched Matrix, LOTR, Iron man movies probably 100+ times over the years.

Even with all the HT stuff etc and having 600 movies on my HTPC system and I still watch network movies with their commercials Matrix was on again last night...watched it on a 22" screen, TV speakers and with commercials

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Originally Posted by pbc View Post

This thread borders on fascinating. I'm really curious as to when we will discover who's opinion on whether sub 20hz matters is the right one. I.e., is it the ones who care about sub 20hz performance and therefore believe it matters and are willing to design their system to achieve this regardless of cost or size, or is it the ones who don't care about sub 20hz performance and therefore don't think it matters and therefore don't bother trying to achieve it? Hmmm...one of these opinions HAS to be right, right?

Where's ssabripo and his infamous popcorn jpg when you need him?

THere is no right or wrong.

1. If you do not care about hearing < 20Hz content then its okay.

2. If you do care about hearing < 20Hz content then its okay.

I do hope those making a choice have atleast had a proper reference point before they make a conclusion because they might not know what they are missing.

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