Setting up my subwoofer (f12) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 49 Old 07-24-2011, 09:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Just received my bic f12 I recently purchased. This thing is huge! well... compared to my 8" yamaha HTIB sub.

The receiver I am using is a onkyo RC180. http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-HT-RC180.../dp/B002L6GEKG

Out of all the settings on this sub which should they be set to?
How loud should I have the sub before running auddysey? My room is about 12x15. Will be used for music as well as video games/movies.
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post #2 of 49 Old 07-24-2011, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by undersinjake View Post

Just received my bic f12 I recently purchased. This thing is huge! well... compared to my 8" yamaha HTIB sub.

The receiver I am using is a onkyo RC180. http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-HT-RC180.../dp/B002L6GEKG

Out of all the settings on this sub which should they be set to?
How loud should I have the sub before running auddysey? My room is about 12x15. Will be used for music as well as video games/movies.

Well the manual of your onkyo tells you how to do it

But here is the cliff note version....
Set crossover knob on sub amp to max, volume at 30-40%, phase to 0

Check the level it set for the subwoofer channel and crossovers then report back to us including the other speakers you have
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post #3 of 49 Old 07-24-2011, 10:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyrob425 View Post

Well the manual of your onkyo tells you how to do it

But here is the cliff note version....
Set crossover knob on sub amp to max, volume at 30-40%, phase to 0

Check the level it set for the subwoofer channel and crossovers then report back to us including the other speakers you have

why does the crossover on sub need to be max (if switch set to digital 5.1 thought it doesn't use the sub crossover)? Also I need to put the switch receiver type switch on the sub to digital 5.1 and not pro-logic correct?

and ok thank you will do...
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post #4 of 49 Old 07-24-2011, 11:26 PM
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A crossover is just the point where your speakers rolloff and your subs pick up. A good place to start is 80hz but you need to check your manual. 10hz above your lowest frequency for your speakers is a good choice. You set the crossover on the sub to max because you are not using it. It is bypassed so your receiver can take care of the crossover instead.

I don't understand your second question.
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post #5 of 49 Old 07-25-2011, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by undersinjake View Post

why does the crossover on sub need to be max (if switch set to digital 5.1 thought it doesn't use the sub crossover)? Also I need to put the switch receiver type switch on the sub to digital 5.1 and not pro-logic correct?

and ok thank you will do...

Maybe by now you're all done?

As recommended in the guide, power off while making cable connection, then power "on" to run Audyssey, and after that, "auto" if it works fine.

Try out the Phase toggle after running Audyssey. Let your ears decide which position sounds better.

Starting with Volume 3-4 sounds good. I did a quick 1-position Audyssey check starting halfway (4.5) and it maxed out, ended up at Volume 3.

The Crossover Frequency setting won't matter, because you'll set "Receiver Type" toggle to "digital" and in that position, you are correct, the crossover frequency dial is disengaged, so your receiver has the full range to work with.

I found the F12 directions helpful, and the subwoofer crawl tip on this forum is very worth it. Hope you enjoy your new sub. Mine's 3 weeks old.
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post #6 of 49 Old 07-25-2011, 08:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TalkingRat View Post

Maybe by now you're all done?

As recommended in the guide, power off while making cable connection, then power "on" to run Audyssey, and after that, "auto" if it works fine.

Try out the Phase toggle after running Audyssey. Let your ears decide which position sounds better.

Starting with Volume 3-4 sounds good. I did a quick 1-position Audyssey check starting halfway (4.5) and it maxed out, ended up at Volume 3.

The Crossover Frequency setting won't matter, because you'll set "Receiver Type" toggle to "digital" and in that position, you are correct, the crossover frequency dial is disengaged, so your receiver has the full range to work with.

I found the F12 directions helpful, and the subwoofer crawl tip on this forum is very worth it. Hope you enjoy your new sub. Mine's 3 weeks old.

thank you!
so do you do the sub crawl first or after audyssey?
ANd I haven't done it yet because it was late (and audyssey is loud! lol) and now i am at work. I will do it as soon as I get home.
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post #7 of 49 Old 07-25-2011, 08:32 AM
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Do it before you run audyssey because audyssey makes it calculations where the subwoofer is placed
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post #8 of 49 Old 07-25-2011, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpray1983 View Post

Do it before you run audyssey because audyssey makes it calculations where the subwoofer is placed

ok. Wheres the instructions on it?
Do I just play the bass by itself? How loud?
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post #9 of 49 Old 07-25-2011, 09:27 AM
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What version of audyssey do you have?
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post #10 of 49 Old 07-25-2011, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpray1983 View Post

What version of audyssey do you have?

according to onkyos site I have Audyssey DSX
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post #11 of 49 Old 07-25-2011, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpray1983 View Post

What version of audyssey do you have?

Hi Mpray1983, RC180 has Audyssey MultEQ.
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post #12 of 49 Old 07-25-2011, 11:12 AM
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You need to get some working knowledge then such as by plugging in the microphone and your question will be answered right there on the screen. Plug in the mic and you will be told exactly what volume to put your sub at.
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post #13 of 49 Old 07-25-2011, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by undersinjake View Post

ok. Wheres the instructions on it?
Do I just play the bass by itself? How loud?

Hi undersinjake, check out "How to do the subwoofer Crawl" at Axiom.
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post #14 of 49 Old 07-25-2011, 11:20 AM
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Hi undersinjake, check out "How to do the subwoofer Crawl" at Axiom.

Oops...I thought he already knew how to do that and was wondering how to run audyssey. My bad...
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post #15 of 49 Old 07-25-2011, 11:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mpray1983 View Post

Oops...I thought he already knew how to do that and was wondering how to run audyssey. My bad...

yeah that is what i meant.
thanks for the info guys.

With audyssey is placement still a huge factor. I am limited on where I can actually put it.
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post #16 of 49 Old 07-25-2011, 11:50 AM
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Try for a corner. Audyssey multeq sub filters aren't the greatest so it wont fix huge gaps. You should be happy with it though. Good luck and let us know if you have any other questions.
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post #17 of 49 Old 07-25-2011, 01:06 PM
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Here's a second sub crawl technique, I used this one before I saw batpig's link to the Axiom demo on the Denon thread. With the Axiom vid, that big sub stayed on the floor, and he did more of a crouch, at listening height. With the F12, it was more the Audioholics' crawl, me at sub height, sub on the main chair at listening height.

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/sp...ofer-placement

You'll know when you crawl what a difference location makes. As the guy on the Axiom vid says, there are places where the sound is rich and full, and other places where you hardly hear bass, and you can't predict in advance. The middle of the room, however, has a reputation for nulls. Our #2 movie seat is near-null, and at least we know which way to lean.

When I crawled, I found 3 good places in the front of the room, and then was blown away by the sweet spot in the back corner, it was many times better. It's useful to know your room, even if the sub doesn't wind up in the best spot. Mine's in the "convenient" third best spot, but in another month, I'm going to try the #1 location to see if it helps with near-nulls in other seats. Every time I run Audyssey, I get better at it, so I see a benefit even if I end up not changing anything.
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post #18 of 49 Old 07-25-2011, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TalkingRat View Post

Here's a second sub crawl technique, I used this one before I saw batpig's link to the Axiom demo on the Denon thread. With the Axiom vid, that big sub stayed on the floor, and he did more of a crouch, at listening height. With the F12, it was more the Audioholics' crawl, me at sub height, sub on the main chair at listening height.

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/sp...ofer-placement

You'll know when you crawl what a difference location makes. As the guy on the Axiom vid says, there are places where the sound is rich and full, and other places where you hardly hear bass, and you can't predict in advance. The middle of the room, however, has a reputation for nulls. Our #2 movie seat is near-null, and at least we know which way to lean.

When I crawled, I found 3 good places in the front of the room, and then was blown away by the sweet spot in the back corner, it was many times better. It's useful to know your room, even if the sub doesn't wind up in the best spot. Mine's in the "convenient" third best spot, but in another month, I'm going to try the #1 location to see if it helps with near-nulls in other seats. Every time I run Audyssey, I get better at it, so I see a benefit even if I end up not changing anything.

Why didn't you keep it in the back corner? also how far do you have the sub from the wall
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post #19 of 49 Old 07-25-2011, 02:59 PM
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I even find the direction my sub is facing to help. Maybe your ears might pick it up but I used a calibration software. I had a huge null at 70hz that I couldn't get rid of and locations I put the subs were scarce in my living room with two 15's. They are both sideways in the corner facing to the right and it gives me only a 5db null instead of a 20db null.
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post #20 of 49 Old 07-25-2011, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by undersinjake View Post


yeah that is what i meant.
thanks for the info guys.

With audyssey is placement still a huge factor. I am limited on where I can actually put it.

It's in your receiver manual
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Originally Posted by Mpray1983 View Post

Try for a corner.

Sure if you want boomy bass.... :rollseyes:
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post #21 of 49 Old 07-25-2011, 03:25 PM
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Sure if you want boomy bass.... :rollseyes:

The "rollseyes" thing is getting old I see all the time. As for corner loading, it is the best way to increase room gain. It's not like he is dealing with a little tiny sub. It will not sound "boomy" if he puts it in the corner. It's just going to give him a few extra db's of gain.
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post #22 of 49 Old 07-25-2011, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpray1983 View Post


The "rollseyes" thing is getting old I see all the time. As for corner loading, it is the best way to increase room gain. It's not like he is dealing with a little tiny sub. It will not sound "boomy" if he puts it in the corner. It's just going to give him a few extra db's of gain.

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/sp...ent-guidelines besides the subwoofer crawl is the best way to find out the best placement for the subwoofer... You get more out of your subwoofer by doing a subwoofer crawl than you would by blindly placing it in a room

F12 is boomy on it's own I am just saying that's why people aren't a fan of it for music
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post #23 of 49 Old 07-25-2011, 04:09 PM
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When your dealing with a sub that doesn't have a whole lot of power behind it you have to make certain compromises. From actual measurements I have found corner loading to be the most effective position for a sub. It you using a PB13 ultra you can put it anywhere you want. This guy isn't and in order to get the most out of his sub...the corner is most likely going to give him the most output and is a great place to start the subwoofer crawl.
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post #24 of 49 Old 07-25-2011, 04:32 PM
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I'd read that a small percentage of sound that passes to the subwoofer is voice, and transitioning voice from front to back can be distracting. I already find it distracting when TV shows transition voice from side to front, but that is of course full voice, not the rare really low bits. But the Axiom guy and Audyssey apparently don't buy that "should be up front" argument. When I did the crawl, I wish I had also moved the sub to the secondary seating, to see if I could find a good position for both spots. Doing it again, I hope to get better info, now that it's not entirely new to me.

A couple more reasons for not putting it that direction to begin with was I thought it would do better if it hit a wall in 15' instead of 26'. Actually, it carries the 26' just fine, but it likely is why it hits a near-null on the secondary seats. Also, it's a crowded corner area with side speaker, floor lamp, recumbent bike, between fireplace and patio slider, with no place to go. I can't move the bike out into the room without messing up alignment for the primary TV chair. TV/speaker position is constrained by a 55 gallon fish tank. I was also concerned that stronger vibrations would kill the fish, and we've had them over 17 years. Moving TV over fireplace would solve the space problem, but everyone else objected.

Sub is about 4" from wall adjacent to the TV wall, about 20" away from component cabinet, 8" from a chair on the other side, which is right up against the fireplace hearth. Uneven spacing due to air vent. The fireplace mass may make it behave more like a corner. The sweet spot was 20" from the back corner, along the same fireplace wall. I didn't want the sub facing the long 26' direction (open to kitchen) instead of to the wall 15' away, thought it might affect the wave pattern, but next time I'll know more what to look for. It's really interesting where the sound goes, it carries well to the wall 26' away, I hear it better in the kitchen than on the sofa in the family room.
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post #25 of 49 Old 07-25-2011, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TalkingRat View Post

I'd read that a small percentage of sound that passes to the subwoofer is voice, and transitioning voice from front to back can be distracting. I already find it distracting when TV shows transition voice from side to front, but that is of course full voice, not the rare really low bits. But the Axiom guy and Audyssey apparently don't buy that "should be up front" argument.

Do you know where you saw this? I was under the impression that even the lowest of male voices is around 135hz.
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post #26 of 49 Old 07-25-2011, 06:12 PM
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Mpray, I can't remember but I will keep an eye out for it. Male voice 85-180 Hz. As long as Audyssey has no problem with that, I shouldn't either, I have MultEQ XT.
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post #27 of 49 Old 07-25-2011, 06:26 PM
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for undersinjake,

forgot the audyssey guide tips, post #5701 in the audyssey thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post14456895
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post #28 of 49 Old 07-25-2011, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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alright i ran audyssey... my sub is in between my two fronts on the right side of the small entertainment center holding my center. This is what I got:

my fronts are DLK 1 1/2's

Front 50hz
center 50hz
surround 150 hz(small htib speakers)

Fl -3dB , Fr -8dB (not sure why this is so much louder?)

SL -2 , SR -1

Center -8
SW -11.5 and this is on 4 on the subwoofer volume knob

edit: LPF of LFE 80hz
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post #29 of 49 Old 07-25-2011, 07:56 PM
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Turn the subwoofer gain down alittle to 3-3.5 and turn the LPF on LFE to 120hz
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post #30 of 49 Old 07-25-2011, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by undersinjake View Post

Front 50hz
center 50hz

SW -11.5 and this is on 4 on the subwoofer volume knob

edit: LPF of LFE 80hz

+1 on crazyrob425 suggestion to turn down sub gain some and rerun Audyssey. Also after Audyssey experiment with fronts and center crossover, try 60Hz or 80Hz.
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