Triple Klipsch Sub-12 set up = Overkill?? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 10 Old 07-29-2011, 04:02 PM - Thread Starter
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So here is a little info on my system before going into discussion. I am only 17 fyi, so this is what i have built up so far.

Front: Some old "vivid" brand tower's, used to be my dads they have an 8 inch woofer, 4 inch midrange and a 2inch tweeter. Not terrible speakers but not very good, hugely lacking in midbass.

Center: Klipsch Synergy C2

Rears: A pair of old Wharfedale Diamond III's, also my dads. These need to be replaced asap as the right rear tweeter is broken after a fall

Subs: 3 Klipsch sub-12's. Why you ask? Firstly, Im a bit of a basshead and secondly i only paid $750 for ALL 3. Kijiji, Boxing day and bestbuy floor model thats how i got them so cheap.

Reciever: Harmon Kardon AVR 146.

Room: ******. Not sure on exact dimensions but its 12 feet wide and id say about 25+ feet long, with horrible insulation/soundproofing. Can't be changed.

Now, having 3 of these subs in this set up is pretty overkill, but it really helps eliminate the MANY dead spots in the room. But my real question is what level of speakers do I need to keep up properly with the subs? I really like the sound of Klipsch products, and they are quite common here in Edmonton so finding them used and cheap is quite easy. What should my upgrade path from here on out be? I was thinking getting some RS-52's for rears, then new fronts. Should I get a better reciever too, the power ratings on the 146 seem really low, and it wasn't very expensive. With some higher end speakers I would assume a better quality reciever should accompany them. Thanks for any tips and info you guys have.

Ps. If this belongs in speakers more than subwoofer, feel free to move it mods.
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post #2 of 10 Old 07-29-2011, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by r3bornlife View Post

So here is a little info on my system before going into discussion. I am only 17 fyi, so this is what i have built up so far.

Front: Some old "vivid" brand tower's, used to be my dads they have an 8 inch woofer, 4 inch midrange and a 2inch tweeter. Not terrible speakers but not very good, hugely lacking in midbass.

Center: Klipsch Synergy C2

Rears: A pair of old Wharfedale Diamond III's, also my dads. These need to be replaced asap as the right rear tweeter is broken after a fall

Subs: 3 Klipsch sub-12's. Why you ask? Firstly, Im a bit of a basshead and secondly i only paid $750 for ALL 3. Kijiji, Boxing day and bestbuy floor model thats how i got them so cheap.

Reciever: Harmon Kardon AVR 146.

Room: ******. Not sure on exact dimensions but its 12 feet wide and id say about 25+ feet long, with horrible insulation/soundproofing. Can't be changed.

Now, having 3 of these subs in this set up is pretty overkill, but it really helps eliminate the MANY dead spots in the room. But my real question is what level of speakers do I need to keep up properly with the subs? I really like the sound of Klipsch products, and they are quite common here in Edmonton so finding them used and cheap is quite easy. What should my upgrade path from here on out be? I was thinking getting some RS-52's for rears, then new fronts. Should I get a better reciever too, the power ratings on the 146 seem really low, and it wasn't very expensive. With some higher end speakers I would assume a better quality reciever should accompany them. Thanks for any tips and info you guys have.

Ps. If this belongs in speakers more than subwoofer, feel free to move it mods.

Three of those subs are not overkill for that space, especially if your a bass head. I have a couple suggestions for you take what you want leave the rest.

Look here for a replacement tweeter for that speaker if you want one.

www.partsexpress.com

Whats the layout of the room?

Really I would try to co-locate(Stack) at least two of the subs since your going to have to split your LFE signal anyways. Put the third nearfield to seating position or back of the room. Do sub crawl to determine positions.

Buy an spl meter or get an app for your phone most are free.

Seems like your on the right upgrade path for the speaks Center is most important, if you like the one you have try to match the mains to the same family or upgrade entire front stage. Mains/Center first, surrounds last. If you like the sound of klipsch then stick with them they have a sound all their own, either love it or hate it IMO.
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post #3 of 10 Old 07-29-2011, 04:25 PM
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I have three 12s in my 16x20 media room - 2 Emotivas, 1 SVS 25-31 PCi - and love the sound.....so no, I don't think multiples are overkill (and would love to have another SVS if I could find one.)

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post #4 of 10 Old 07-29-2011, 04:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

Three of those subs are not overkill for that space, especially if your a bass head. I have a couple suggestions for you take what you want leave the rest.

Look here for a replacement tweeter for that speaker if you want one.

www.partsexpress.com

Whats the layout of the room?

Really I would try to co-locate(Stack) at least two of the subs since your going to have to split your LFE signal anyways. Put the third nearfield to seating position or back of the room. Do sub crawl to determine positions.

Buy an spl meter or get an app for your phone most are free.

Seems like your on the right upgrade path for the speaks Center is most important, if you like the one you have try to match the mains to the same family or upgrade entire front stage. Mains/Center first, surrounds last. If you like the sound of klipsch then stick with them they have a sound all their own, either love it or hate it IMO.

I have the first two in the front corners of the room, the third just to the right of the listening position, its about the best im gunna get outta this room after a long time spent crawling, etc. Thanks for the advice.
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post #5 of 10 Old 07-29-2011, 10:09 PM
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Speakers being able to "keep up" with subs is more of a myth. As long as your speakers are all calibrated to 75db and your subs to 80db (on an spl meter) you should be okay. Getting better speakers will help give your sound a more dynamic feel and you will start hearing things you didn't know were there. Go for the fronts and center first and make sure those 3 are all timbre matched (from the same model and series) then use whichever speakers that you currently have that you consider to be your best for your surrounds. Surrounds should definitly be, as others had stated, the last thing you do. Not a whole lot happens in the surrounds. It is necessary to achieve surround sound and full emersion but not essential to enjoy a system.

It's good to see a 17 year old on here. All my speakers were from my dad when I was your age too and im only 10 years older than you.
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post #6 of 10 Old 07-30-2011, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpray1983 View Post

Speakers being able to "keep up" with subs is more of a myth. As long as your speakers are all calibrated to 75db and your subs to 80db (on an spl meter) you should be okay. Getting better speakers will help give your sound a more dynamic feel and you will start hearing things you didn't know were there. Go for the fronts and center first and make sure those 3 are all timbre matched (from the same model and series) then use whichever speakers that you currently have that you consider to be your best for your surrounds. Surrounds should definitly be, as others had stated, the last thing you do. Not a whole lot happens in the surrounds. It is necessary to achieve surround sound and full emersion but not essential to enjoy a system.

It's good to see a 17 year old on here. All my speakers were from my dad when I was your age too and im only 10 years older than you.

Hi Mpray!

While I do agree with most of what you added, there is some truth to mains keeping up with subs.

Think about this, with that setup he should be able to hit 105-110 prob in the midbass area. Assuming with good room placement he gets the sub region fairly flat, not all speakers will be able to keep up @105db full range.

In other words level matched all the speakers will be equal. Then he turns it up until the center runs out of gas(amp power) at about 98db and the amp starts clipping producing noticeable distortion but no further productive output, and the sub level continues to increase as the gain knob is increased. This is what is meant by "Keeping Up."

I should however note that this setup appears to be amp limited as the specs I saw quoted an honest 30W into each channel and the center appears to be rated at 100W FWIW. However even when fed 100W the center falls short somewhere around 103db and you'll prob not see an honest 100W per channel all channels driven on any reasonably priced AVR.

OP you can use this calculator its very useful and I have found it very useful.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

Cheers!
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post #7 of 10 Old 07-30-2011, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post


Hi Mpray!

While I do agree with most of what you added, there is some truth to mains keeping up with subs.

Think about this, with that setup he should be able to hit 105-110 prob in the midbass area. Assuming with good room placement he gets the sub region fairly flat, not all speakers will be able to keep up @105db full range.

In other words level matched all the speakers will be equal. Then he turns it up until the center runs out of gas(amp power) at about 98db and the amp starts clipping producing noticeable distortion but no further productive output, and the sub level continues to increase as the gain knob is increased. This is what is meant by "Keeping Up."

I should however note that this setup appears to be amp limited as the specs I saw quoted an honest 30W into each channel and the center appears to be rated at 100W FWIW. However even when fed 100W the center falls short somewhere around 103db and you'll prob not see an honest 100W per channel all channels driven on any reasonably priced AVR.

OP you can use this calculator its very useful and I have found it very useful.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

Cheers!

So your referring to his ability to power his speakers but not his ability for his speakers to effectively "keep up" with his subs. If so I agree and that maybe something to look into. A used onkyo or denon with audyssey that will level match all his speakers might be a huge help. Probably won't help with subs because unless he gets a $2000 receiver they won't be able to process multiple subs.
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post #8 of 10 Old 07-30-2011, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Mpray1983 View Post

So your referring to his ability to power his speakers but not his ability for his speakers to effectively "keep up" with his subs. If so I agree and that maybe something to look into. A used onkyo or denon with audyssey that will level match all his speakers might be a huge help. Probably won't help with subs because unless he gets a $2000 receiver they won't be able to process multiple subs.


Yes, and No.

While he is currently power limited, all speakers also have an upper threshold of SPL ability. Max Power HandlingXSensitivity= Theoretical Upper SPL Capability. Based on 100W Max Power Handling of that center it has approx 103db Max SPL capability.

Klipsch claims 117db SPL for each so he could prob peak somewhere around 120db if you believe Klipsch. That center cannot match this spl and two mains of the same family likely cannot either.


Remember I'm talking about max output of individual components at their limits. Driven inside the max output of all the components they will all "keep up" if properly level matched. However it sounded as if he might test those output limits based on his self proclaimed status of "bass head." He might as well know those subs will probably have a combined spl capability beyond what that center and other speakers of similar capability will be able to match. A good set of mains will prob add a few more dbs and he should be good to go all the way up to the point of hearing damage anyways.

Audyssey does sub correction for two LFE channels and pretty darn good too. Not at all a substitute for outboard sub EQ when you get down to it, but far better than nothing.
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post #9 of 10 Old 07-30-2011, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post


Yes, and No.

While he is currently power limited, all speakers also have an upper threshold of SPL ability. Max Power HandlingXSensitivity= Theoretical Upper SPL Capability. Based on 100W Max Power Handling of that center it has approx 103db Max SPL capability.

Klipsch claims 117db SPL for each so he could prob peak somewhere around 120db if you believe Klipsch. That center cannot match this spl and two mains of the same family likely cannot either.

Remember I'm talking about max output of individual components at their limits. Driven inside the max output of all the components they will all "keep up" if properly level matched. However it sounded as if he might test those output limits based on his self proclaimed status of "bass head." He might as well know those subs will probably have a combined spl capability beyond what that center and other speakers of similar capability will be able to match. A good set of mains will prob add a few more dbs and he should be good to go all the way up to the point of hearing damage anyways.

Audyssey does sub correction for two LFE channels and pretty darn good too. Not at all a substitute for outboard sub EQ when you get down to it, but far better than nothing.

Actually audyssey's multeq xt32 is the only one that will calibrate two subs. The feature is called audyssey HT EQ. It is actually the same exact software that is in the outboard sub eq box that you buy from SVS, the AS-EQ1 for like $800.

Also him being a basshead could be either way. I am also a basshead and I have 4 15's and never play them louder than they should go. I always play them tuned to the rest of my system and at times I may raise it 3db. I understand what your saying but we need to find out his normal listening volume. Is he using this for house parties or just watching tv at -20db? I don't doubt that a new speakers will help especially since that is what I suggested at the beginning.
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post #10 of 10 Old 07-30-2011, 04:22 PM
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Actually audyssey's multeq xt32 is the only one that will calibrate two subs. The feature is called audyssey HT EQ. It is actually the same exact software that is in the outboard sub eq box that you buy from SVS, the AS-EQ1 for like $800.

Also him being a basshead could be either way. I am also a basshead and I have 4 15's and never play them louder than they should go. I always play them tuned to the rest of my system and at times I may raise it 3db. I understand what your saying but we need to find out his normal listening volume. Is he using this for house parties or just watching tv at -20db? I don't doubt that a new speakers will help especially since that is what I suggested at the beginning.

I think my onk 3007 calibrates my subs separately...... It definitely chirps each sub independently...... It only has xt.

I naturally thought everyone took their system to reference........
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