Do you really need a subwoofer? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 31 Old 08-05-2011, 07:29 AM - Thread Starter
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I am not trying to start an indefinite war or words here. However, is a subwoofer always necessary?

My current main speakers have 10" woofers, and pack quite a punch on their own. My old receiver did not have a Sub option. I recently upgraded, used, but still new to me, to a JVC RX 8040 130w/c(I know rated specs are never the whole truth). But my mains still kick@ss!

The new receiver has a sub out, plus pre-outs, zone 2, etc...

I listen to music/movies 50/50. However, since I have twin toddlers, not as much, or as loud as I would like.

I used a THX Demo DVD to set up the 7 surround channels, when the sub part came on, it would just quite out, however, If I turned on the "Bass Boost", I produced signal, through the 10" mains.

I am just trying to figure out if I actually need a subwoofer.

Thoughts anyone...
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post #2 of 31 Old 08-05-2011, 07:31 AM
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Of course you don't "need" one, but if you had a decent one you would almost certainly notice immediately what you were missing without one. Actually, depending on the quality of the sub you use, there's no "almost" to it. You'd hear the difference and about 30 seconds later you'd be planning your next subwoofer upgrade.

Stephen.

Chances are very good that I was drinking when I posted the above.

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post #3 of 31 Old 08-05-2011, 07:33 AM
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With 10" woofers, you probably don't have to have a sub.

The sub takes some of the load off the receiver, but at 130 wpc (Not sure how accurate this is from JVC), it may not matter.
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post #4 of 31 Old 08-05-2011, 07:36 AM
 
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You may not need a sub for most music, but for movies a sub is most definitely needed. You won't know what you are missing until you have a quality sub (or two) belting out the LFE in action flicks!
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post #5 of 31 Old 08-05-2011, 07:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Nope, never used a sub b4. I've eyeballed them in Best Buy, but I'm not willing to commit.

Also, I check out HT packages, but they all have small speakers. My speakers could eat HT package speakers and crap out their transistors.

The room is 12'wide x 18' long with open side and large back hallway.

My set up is as follows:

Main L&R: White van special(NO FLAMING, please) 10" woofer, 3" mid, & 3" tweeter
Center Sony CN-100
L&R Surround Monoprice in-ceiling 6.5" kevlar w/10mm Swivel tweeter
L&R Back Surround MMA(pretty much the same as Monoprice) in-ceiling 5.5" Kevlar w/10mm Swivel tweeter

Thanx.
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post #6 of 31 Old 08-05-2011, 07:47 AM
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^ If you bought a good sub (not a $50 job from Walmart) with capable output and extension, you'd never look back.

Be warned: Subs are a dangerous addiction. You haven't drank from the fountain yet.

Stephen.

Chances are very good that I was drinking when I posted the above.

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post #7 of 31 Old 08-05-2011, 07:59 AM - Thread Starter
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I've been keeping an eye on some auctions on eBay, through The DeepDiscount. They are where I got the MMA 5.5" in-ceiling speakers.

I've seen down firing 10" for less than $100. 12" for less than $110, and 15" for less than $130. All through auctions, and it depends, if there are snipers involved.

It seems that if I was to get a sub, it should be bigger than my mains, other wise what's the point?!?

The living room is carpeted, so I'm not sure how practical a downfiring sub is. However, on the other hand, front firing subs cost more about $30-$50 more.

...and, there is the twin terrors to consider, I can keep them away from where I would put the sub, but they are little genius's and it doesn't take them long to find their way around things that they are not supposed to be around.

Any thoughts on subs sold through The Deep Discount?

Also, since it's music/movies 50/50, where should the compromise be made?

All thoughts are appreciated.
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post #8 of 31 Old 08-05-2011, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by underminded999 View Post

I've been keeping an eye on some auctions on eBay, through The DeepDiscount. They are where I got the MMA 5.5" in-ceiling speakers.

I've seen down firing 10" for less than $100. 12" for less than $110, and 15" for less than $130. All through auctions, and it depends, if there are snipers involved.

It seems that if I was to get a sub, it should be bigger than my mains, other wise what's the point?!?

The living room is carpeted, so I'm not sure how practical a downfiring sub is. However, on the other hand, front firing subs cost more about $30-$50 more.

...and, there is the twin terrors to consider, I can keep them away from where I would put the sub, but they are little genius's and it doesn't take them long to find their way around things that they are not supposed to be around.

Any thoughts on subs sold through The Deep Discount?

Also, since it's music/movies 50/50, where should the compromise be made?

All thoughts are appreciated.

Just because your mains have a 10" woofer is not enough information to know how well they play low frequencies. There are plenty of speakers with 10" and larger woofers that are only rated to 70hz or so. I also wouldn't worry too much about the size of the subwoofer. The overall design is more important than the size of the driver. Chances are a sub from one of the established ID companies, even one with a 10" driver, will have much better bass than your mains or any of the Acoustic Audio subs, but at a higher cost.

-Mike
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post #9 of 31 Old 08-05-2011, 08:33 AM
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As a poster stated in a different thread, if a "good" subwoofer can't do both music and movies we then it really isn't a good subwoofer. What is your budget how much are you willing to spend. In my opion the cheapest good sub is the Elemental Designs A2-300 for $415. The reason I say this sub is because its one of the cheapest subs that truly digs down below 20hz +/- 3db. It has a 12" downfiring sub with a 4" front port. I recommend not getting anything less than a 12". If $415 is over your budget you might check out BIC America F-12 sub.

Shawn
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post #10 of 31 Old 08-05-2011, 08:37 AM
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My experience with down firing subs on carpeting is it doesn't matter. Carpet fibers don't seem to have much effect on the sound at all. You can always put the sub on a piece of plywood or something to keep the feet elevated.

The little ones won't be a problem as long as the back is tucked away. I had a sub with volume and frequency knobs on the front and the kids liked to play with the knobs. I would have to go and reset them as they were always on one extreme or the other. Forunately my sub didn't blow up when both volume and frequency were set to max, but it's probably because the receiver volume was low whenever the kids were around.
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post #11 of 31 Old 08-05-2011, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by underminded999 View Post

I've been keeping an eye on some auctions on eBay, through The DeepDiscount. They are where I got the MMA 5.5" in-ceiling speakers.

I've seen down firing 10" for less than $100. 12" for less than $110, and 15" for less than $130. All through auctions, and it depends, if there are snipers involved.

It seems that if I was to get a sub, it should be bigger than my mains, other wise what's the point?!?

The living room is carpeted, so I'm not sure how practical a downfiring sub is. However, on the other hand, front firing subs cost more about $30-$50 more.

...and, there is the twin terrors to consider, I can keep them away from where I would put the sub, but they are little genius's and it doesn't take them long to find their way around things that they are not supposed to be around.

Any thoughts on subs sold through The Deep Discount?

Also, since it's music/movies 50/50, where should the compromise be made?

All thoughts are appreciated.

You seem to be on a really strict budget. People here don't even talk about subs from The Deep Discount.

Based on your situation, you may be a good candidate for something from LAVA subs which is one of the least expensive subs considered at least half-decent. Last I heard, you got a discount from LAVA if you are a member of AVS. Just search LAVA in this section of the Forum.

The addition of a sub should be a real eye opener.
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post #12 of 31 Old 08-05-2011, 10:10 AM
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It's like asking do you need a Ferrari to go fast. Sure, a Miata can go fast, but it's a completely different experience to go fast in a Ferrari. Sure, your 10" cones produce base. It would take all of a 3 second demo with monster subs to get the idea.

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post #13 of 31 Old 08-05-2011, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by underminded999 View Post

Main L&R: White van special(NO FLAMING, please) 10" woofer, 3" mid, & 3" tweeter

You need new mains before you need a sub.

Your speakers aren't doing anything useful in the sub-100 Hz range.
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post #14 of 31 Old 08-05-2011, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by underminded999 View Post

It seems that if I was to get a sub, it should be bigger than my mains, other wise what's the point?!?

It's not necessarily the size (although that does play a big part) but what you expect from them in the bass department. If you're happy with your 10" mains and you don't want to spend a lot of money, I wouldn't worry about getting one of those cheapo subs. It's doubtful they'll add much to the experience.

Now getting a quality sub is a different matter, as it will produce deep deep lows that your mains won't touch, but then again, it depends on what you want and how much you're willing to spend.

Don't believe everything on the Interwebz! A duck's quack DOES echo!
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post #15 of 31 Old 08-05-2011, 10:47 AM
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Quick answer: Yes.

Ah, that felt good. On to the next topic!
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post #16 of 31 Old 08-05-2011, 10:55 AM
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I own Klipsch Forte II which have 12" woofers and 15" passives on the back of the speakers and yet I also own 4 subwoofers. Does that answer your question better?

Hometheatergeek

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post #17 of 31 Old 08-05-2011, 11:30 AM
 
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I'd like to know which one of these "WVS" these are.

There is one WVS out there that is actually quite good(shockingly...I'm actually still trying to figure out why this one is WVS)...

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/arc...p/t-80803.html (Dynalab SDA 2.8)

Unless there is(was) a real Dynalab SDA 2.8 and a fake one???
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post #18 of 31 Old 08-05-2011, 11:53 AM
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Of course you need a sub. Why else are we all here?
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post #19 of 31 Old 08-05-2011, 12:51 PM
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In the under $200 category, the Bic F12 is recommended here more than any other. It's what I could afford, and I'm happy with it. But I don't think I'd be happy with anything less.

A sub was something I never got around to when I went from stereo to 5.1. This year I updated AVR and added a budget sub. Movies are now an entirely different experience. My mains have 12" woofers, Audyssey set the crossover at 40 Hz. But the midrange sounds a lot better with crossovers at 80 Hz. So it isn't just an improvement in low frequency, everything sounds better now. Much better. At 40 Hz, the surrounds sound like wet cardboard, the mains are adequate, and the F12 sings.
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post #20 of 31 Old 08-05-2011, 10:36 PM
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If you are looking for overall accuracy and output in your system, then yes you need a subwoofer. Mains with big WOOFERS are just that, woofers, they are not specialized to pound away in the low end of the spectrum the same a subwoofer is. Buy mains with subwoofers in them, problem solved



... I'd buy subwoofers anyways.
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post #21 of 31 Old 08-06-2011, 06:10 AM
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From what I read, there is no main with a "subwoofer" built in that compares to true subwoofer options.

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post #22 of 31 Old 08-06-2011, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnythan View Post

You need new mains before you need a sub.

Your speakers aren't doing anything useful in the sub-100 Hz range.

guys...i have to agree. not to be an asss here but seriously....this is either a troll...or someone who is just plain ignorant about all things audio.

anyone who has carpeted speakers from a white van does not even belong here asking these types of questions. he has his mind already made up, and he has no clue what he's talking about.

cheap crap speakers like that are easily driven, probably very loud to him although distorted as hell with cheap ass horn tweeters and the whole speaker probably cost around $20.00 to make.

I'm sorry, but I'm really tired of people who won't even do an ounce of research on their own and at least get a little education.

Yes I realize we are here to educate each other, but seriously....there comes a point when it makes my head hurt.

I think the OP needs to go listen to some real equipment and then maybe he'll understand what sounds good and what doesn't and why he might or might not need a sub.
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post #23 of 31 Old 08-06-2011, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulpa View Post

It's not necessarily the size (although that does play a big part) but what you expect from them in the bass department. If you're happy with your 10" mains and you don't want to spend a lot of money, I wouldn't worry about getting one of those cheapo subs. It's doubtful they'll add much to the experience.

Now getting a quality sub is a different matter, as it will produce deep deep lows that your mains won't touch, but then again, it depends on what you want and how much you're willing to spend.

LOL. "A LOT" of money? He's talking about the cost of a couple cases of beer..or a cheap night out with a lady. He is not even in the realm of reality here for audio equipment. This is a PERFECT candidate for a used BOSE system or other HTIB (although I would suggest Energy, Martin Logan etc HTIB) but again now we are talking a whopping $400.00!!! OH NO! With a sub included

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post #24 of 31 Old 08-09-2011, 07:59 AM
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i have been running new large advents since 1978. about 10 years ago i bought some extra drivers and built new enclosures, combining my original drivers with the "new" ones into 4-foot tall, 18" wide double advents. (look up double advent absolute sound article.) then i built a pair of bass bins as center channels flanking the RPCRT, with the tweeters on top of the tv. thats six new large advent woofers, with strong fr down to 30 hz. no lack of bass there.

then i added a 10" velodyne sub. WOW! no comparison. get a sub.

enjoy the toys!
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post #25 of 31 Old 08-09-2011, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpruceMoose View Post

i have been running new large advents since 1978. about 10 years ago i bought some extra drivers and built new enclosures, combining my original drivers with the "new" ones into 4-foot tall, 18" wide double advents. (look up double advent absolute sound article.) then i built a pair of bass bins as center channels flanking the RPCRT, with the tweeters on top of the tv. thats six new large advent woofers, with strong fr down to 30 hz. no lack of bass there.

then i added a 10" velodyne sub. WOW! no comparison. get a sub.

That sounds great, I always wanted to try the the double Advent. I have the 5002's. Your are right though, the Advents have some good low end but do not match a decent sub system.

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post #26 of 31 Old 08-09-2011, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

guys...i have to agree. not to be an asss here but seriously....this is either a troll...or someone who is just plain ignorant about all things audio.

anyone who has carpeted speakers from a white van does not even belong here asking these types of questions. he has his mind already made up, and he has no clue what he's talking about.

cheap crap speakers like that are easily driven, probably very loud to him although distorted as hell with cheap ass horn tweeters and the whole speaker probably cost around $20.00 to make.

I'm sorry, but I'm really tired of people who won't even do an ounce of research on their own and at least get a little education.

Yes I realize we are here to educate each other, but seriously....there comes a point when it makes my head hurt.

I think the OP needs to go listen to some real equipment and then maybe he'll understand what sounds good and what doesn't and why he might or might not need a sub.

Speaking of White vans, I saw someone selling speaker cables out of one. I asked what brand, and he said "Pure Evil."
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post #27 of 31 Old 08-09-2011, 02:04 PM
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And to the OP, the name of the thread should be "do I need 2 subs"...the answer is yes
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post #28 of 31 Old 05-16-2013, 10:29 AM
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.
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post #29 of 31 Old 05-16-2013, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sb1 View Post

^ If you bought a good sub (not a $50 job from Walmart) with capable output and extension, you'd never look back.


Be warned: Subs are a dangerous addiction. You haven't drank from the fountain yet.

this is the comment that putted the last nail,going with rhythmic f15,piano gloss (of course),thanks!!!
and thanks in general,to all the people who pot their knowledge in this and other forums,some posts never dies..
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post #30 of 31 Old 05-16-2013, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Merto Eliasi View Post



this is the comment that putted the last nail,going with rhythmic f15,piano gloss (of course),thanks!!!
and thanks in general,to all the people who pot their knowledge in this and other forums,some posts never dies..


rytmik!! f apple autocorrect !
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