Sub Suggetions for a fairly large/open family room - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 90 Old 09-09-2011, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi all,

I'm in need of an upgrade/replacement sub for my family room. The room size is roughly 22x24 with 18' ceilings and is open to the rest of the house. My current sub (Klipsch RW-12) has done me very well in the past, but it comes up a little short in this environment. I'm looking at a budget of (hopefully) 800-1200, not including the sale of my RW12 if need be. I have no problem buying used as I'll be able to get a bit more for my money that way. I've experimented with placement, but just couldn't really get the slam I wanted out of the little guy. The sub actually sounds great for home theater, but lacks the punch I like in my music in such an open area.

I'm primarily considering SVS, ML, and Def Tech at the moment but I'm open to anything that will be a worthwhile upgrade. I'm open to single and double sub (maybe triple?) setups given my room size.

My current setup:

Yamaha RX-V1065 Receiver
Acurus 200x3 for front three channels
Panamax M5100 power conditioner
Martin Logan Clarity Fronts
Martin Logan Fresco Center
Klipsch RS-35 surrounds
Klipsch RW-12 sub x 1

Thanks for your help.
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post #2 of 90 Old 09-09-2011, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Hi all,

I'm in need of an upgrade/replacement sub for my family room. The room size is roughly 22x24 with 18' ceilings and is open to the rest of the house. My current sub (Klipsch RW-12) has done me very well in the past, but it comes up a little short in this environment. I'm looking at a budget of (hopefully) 800-1200, not including the sale of my RW12 if need be. I have no problem buying used as I'll be able to get a bit more for my money that way. I've experimented with placement, but just couldn't really get the slam I wanted out of the little guy. The sub actually sounds great for home theater, but lacks the punch I like in my music in such an open area.

I'm primarily considering SVS, ML, and Def Tech at the moment but I'm open to anything that will be a worthwhile upgrade. I'm open to single and double sub (maybe triple?) setups given my room size.

My current setup:

Yamaha RX-V1065 Receiver
Acurus 200x3 for front three channels
Panamax M5100 power conditioner
Martin Logan Clarity Fronts
Martin Logan Fresco Center
Klipsch RS-35 surrounds
RW-12 sub x 1

Thanks for your help.
Klipsch

With your large open space and budget of (800-1200), I would look very closely at the HSU VTF-15H:

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-15h.html

You can also call HSU and even send them a drawing of your floor plan and they will tell you whether the VTF-15H is sufficient.
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post #3 of 90 Old 09-09-2011, 12:07 PM
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Chase Home Theater has a clearance where you can get two 18" subs powered by an external 2000 watt amp for I think $1050 + shipping.
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post #4 of 90 Old 09-09-2011, 12:22 PM
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post #5 of 90 Old 09-09-2011, 05:16 PM
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All mentioned.. are good subs. You definitely need a good upgrade.

Klipsch RB-75
Klipsch C-7
Klipsch RB-35
On-going SW management class
Denon
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post #6 of 90 Old 09-14-2011, 09:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys. Will check out the hsu and rhythmic for sure. I've read good things about the pb ultra 13 and the def tech trinity. Would those mentioned be comparable?
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post #7 of 90 Old 09-14-2011, 04:28 PM
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Yikes, that's over 9500 CF! You're gonna need a bigger boat. I mean subwoofer. (there are some Jaws fans out their I hope...)

Why not pull out all the stops and get a Rythmik F25? Bet you don't outgrow that thing.

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post #8 of 90 Old 09-15-2011, 12:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Holy cow! That seems like a great buy for the price. I didn't see dimensions on their site though? Have you heard one before?
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post #9 of 90 Old 09-15-2011, 04:08 AM
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Your gonna need a couple of really bigs subs if you want to feel the bass. Thats a large room.
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post #10 of 90 Old 09-15-2011, 06:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Thanks guys. Will check out the hsu and rhythmic for sure. I've read good things about the pb ultra 13 and the def tech trinity. Would those mentioned be comparable?

The ultra is way above your stated budget but it is a great sub. If your budget is firm the 18's from chase will be your best bet to fill that space.
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post #11 of 90 Old 09-15-2011, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Holy cow! That seems like a great buy for the price. I didn't see dimensions on their site though? Have you heard one before?

The dimensions are under the Performance & Specs link. I've never heard it myself -- it was merely a suggestion based upon the size of your room. It will be tough to pressurize that much space unless you use 2 really big subs, or one monster. The F25 is obviously the latter...

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post #12 of 90 Old 09-15-2011, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post
Thanks guys. Will check out the hsu and rhythmic for sure. I've read good things about the pb ultra 13 and the def tech trinity. Would those mentioned be comparable?
The PB-13 Ultra is $2,000 shipped. If you are going to spend that kind of money you might as well get a JTR Captivator. A Captivator will have more output than either a PB-13 Ultra or the Trinity.
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post #13 of 90 Old 09-15-2011, 11:54 AM
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^^ +1
That's an enormous space to fill. A JTR Cap at the closest midwall position possible is your best bet if you're doing a single sub.
Dual Rythmik FV15hp's would give more more even distribution of bass but would be more $$.
The SVS Ultra is an excellent sub but you'd also need 2 to give you the output the Cap does. Excellent sound quality like the FV15Hp but better finish options and more $$.
The F25 has a little less output than the FV15hp in the deeper octaves and is more $$ so I think the vented Rythmik(s) are better for your space for home theater.
The sealed Chase subs rely on room gain to be flat to low frequencies. 4 of them and some eq would be about the price of the options above and would perform quite well but the OP doesn't seem like he wants quad subs.
It looks like you'd be better off upping your budget closer to $2k or putting your equipment in a smaller room if you want this upgrade to satisfy you for the long haul. You could get a vented Hsu, Rythmik or SVS now and add another later if $$ is tight and you can place duals in the room. Good luckwith your sub search
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post #14 of 90 Old 09-15-2011, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Really appreciate all the input. Looks like I will wind up doubling my initial budget, but should be a ridiculous upgrade from my single rw12.

Lots of options to weigh here. It should also be noted that space isn't a huge concern and wouldn't have an issue running duals.

Anyone out there running the fv25 or the jtr cap in a similarly sized room? Would love to listen anywhere reasonably close by, but don't think that will happen.
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post #15 of 90 Old 09-15-2011, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83
Anyone out there running the fv25 or the jtr cap in a similarly sized room? Would love to listen anywhere reasonably close by, but don't think that will happen.
Sorry I'm too lazy to search but there's a thread on this forum for people willing to demo their subs/set up by State and City. Start there.
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post #16 of 90 Old 09-16-2011, 01:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capecodorthopod View Post

Sorry I'm too lazy to search but there's a thread on this forum for people willing to demo their subs/set up by State and City. Start there.

I did see that already, but no luck in my area for what i need i should probably add my setup to the list Thanks though.
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post #17 of 90 Old 09-20-2011, 06:05 AM - Thread Starter
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OK so both a Def Tech Trinity and SVS Ultra have popped up locally for 1300-1400 asking prices. Hmm.
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post #18 of 90 Old 09-20-2011, 08:06 AM
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If you're open to spending more than you had initially planned, and are ok with that, then DEFINITELY DEFINITELY spend more money!

I've spent the better part of the last few years dealing with a HUGE room like yours, it's about 10,000 cubic feet, and have just come to the realization over time and alot of sub purchases, that for a room that big, if you really want to feel the bass, you'll need a couple of really good powerful subs. I've had as many as 4 MFW-15's in my room, and that did a good enough job. I would have liked more, but they were adequate enough for me.

I've had quite a few other subs over those years, but those MFW's provided much more output than the other subs I've had. I've had a bunch of different SVS subs in there, and the MFW's clearly gave me what I need.

So I would definitely go with duals of something if I were you. CHT would keep you within your budget as they have a pair of 18" sealed duals for around $1250 shipped that you could get. Ported could work even better for you due to the room being so big. If you can wait a few more weeks, than that could be worth it because CHT will soon be offering new vented subs. They will run around 2 grand or so shipped. 18 inch drivers for those as well. That's going to be my next purchase. Hopefully they will take me to the next level and surpass (by a large margin I'm hoping ) what my MFW's have given me. They definitely should.

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post #19 of 90 Old 09-20-2011, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

OK so both a Def Tech Trinity and SVS Ultra have popped up locally for 1300-1400 asking prices. Hmm.

Are you prepared to buy one used Ultra now and another when the opportunity arises?
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post #20 of 90 Old 09-20-2011, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

Are you prepared to buy one used Ultra now and another when the opportunity arises?

That's a good thought. It's quite common for ultra's to pop up on agon on a somewhat regular basis.

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post #21 of 90 Old 09-20-2011, 01:35 PM - Thread Starter
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I would be willing to see how a single Ultra, trinity or the like sounds and then snag another when the opportunity arises. So far, my serious contenders are:

Single Trinity
Single (then eventually dual) Ultras
Dual Epic Empires
Single Rhyhmik F25 or FV15HP with the potential to upgrade to a second

I've looked at the CHT stuff and it seems to a be a decent value, but (from the reviews on here) the build quality doesn't seem up to par with the others I've mentioned. I'd rather buy a higher end single unit now and a second in the near future.

Ideally I'd like to replace my RS12 immediately, as even replacing with a single unit above will already make a huge difference. I have no problems picking up a second unit in another month or two. I completely understand I have a large amount of air in my room and the bottom line is I need a large amount of woofer area to displace all that air.
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post #22 of 90 Old 09-20-2011, 03:20 PM
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I am in a similar boat. Approximately 10,000 cf, 65% HT, 25% Gaming & 10% Music. Listening level -15db. Budget $2,400.

If I go ported, i will be choosing to battle with the SO (due to size) but it may be a battle worth winning.

Thinking about the following:

2 empires
2 svs sb13 plus
2 rythmik fv15hp
2 rythmik f15hp
2 Ed a5-350
1 jtr cap
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post #23 of 90 Old 09-20-2011, 05:51 PM
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I've heard dual SVS Ultra's and a single Captivator in the same room and I thought the Captivator had a lot more output. Granted the Ultra's were not co-located but still, if I had the option to have 2 Ultras or 1 Captivator I would choose the Captivator hands down. I wasn't crazy about the lack of punchy mid-bass from the Ultra and the Captivator seems to handle all frequencies of bass with massive authority (down to 20 hz anyway).

The negative is you could be looking at a long wait time, so make sure Jeff has one that he can get to you quickly.

As always, full disclosure - I own a Captivator.
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post #24 of 90 Old 09-20-2011, 07:59 PM
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If you haven't read this yet, you might enjoy this post for some comparisons of subwoofers: SHOOTOUT! Epik Empire vs HSU VTF-15H vs CHT CS18.1 vs Rythmik FV15 vs A7s-450 Review

It's undoubtedly subjective, but could still be helpful. It was fun to read. Made me want a big 15"-18" sub

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post #25 of 90 Old 09-21-2011, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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I did read the review, quite a bit of fantastic information. I'll probably wind up purchasing a few different subs in the next few months to give them a try. I have access to an Ultra, Trinity, and now a Empire locally.
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post #26 of 90 Old 09-21-2011, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kb4all View Post

I am in a similar boat. Approximately 10,000 cf, 65% HT, 25% Gaming & 10% Music. Listening level -15db. Budget $2,400.

If I go ported, i will be choosing to battle with the SO (due to size) but it may be a battle worth winning.

Thinking about the following:

2 empires
2 svs sb13 plus
2 rythmik fv15hp
2 rythmik f15hp
2 Ed a5-350
1 jtr cap

Very simlilar to me except my use is probably more 85% HT, 15% music. Gaming is done downstairs on the 'other' setup. Bang for the buck I haven't heard/read of anyone disappointed with Dual Empires. However, if your budget is ~2400, you have a bit more room to explore other options.
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post #27 of 90 Old 09-21-2011, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

I did read the review, quite a bit of fantastic information. I'll probably wind up purchasing a few different subs in the next few months to give them a try. I have access to an Ultra, Trinity, and now a Empire locally.

Several years ago Craig Chase of Chase Home Theater tested a number of subs including the Ultra 13 and the Trinity.

The attached chart shows the rankings in which Craig assigned points based on measurments and listening:

http://www.chasehometheater.com/foru...hread.php?t=11

The Ultra scored 109 and the Trinity scored 102.
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post #28 of 90 Old 09-22-2011, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

Several years ago Craig Chase of Chase Home Theater tested a number of subs including the Ultra 13 and the Trinity.

The attached chart shows the rankings in which Craig assigned points based on measurements and listening:

http://www.chasehometheater.com/foru...hread.php?t=11

The Ultra scored 109 and the Trinity scored 102.

Yep, I read that too. Ironically the comments made about the Trinity (and even measured output levels) would lead me to believe it's a superior sub.
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post #29 of 90 Old 09-22-2011, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Yep, I read that too. Ironically the comments made about the Trinity (and even measured output levels) would lead me to believe it's a superior sub.

Not really. Once you understand that when Craig said, "Listening Results: The Trinity surprised a few listeners by being much musical than a dual active 14 and quad passive 14 inch drivered sub "should".

That is a backhand compliment that means that the listening panel had low expectations for such a complex design. The Trinity has 2 active and 4 passive drivers. The listening panel had low expectations with music for such a complex design, and the Trinity exceeded their low expectations. Trinity has a total of 6 active and passive drivers, the Ultra has 1 active driver, period.

The Trinity also lost points for its performance above 60 Hz. A lot of people are looking for subs with excellent mid-bass performance, and the Trinity simply is not impressive in the mid-bass > 60Hz.

This is important because 80Hz is virtually the default crossover frequency in HT. Sure lots of people use a crossover at 50 Hz, but the Trinity lost points for its performance above 60 Hz.
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post #30 of 90 Old 09-22-2011, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Agreed that's it's certainly not the "best" choice for music. I was more impressed with his comments centered around it's use in a HT environment, which is predominantly my area of interest for this system.

I don't own either sub, just my observation.
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