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post #91 of 194 Old 09-17-2011, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by leninGHOLA View Post

Yup, the LFE was pretty impressive, but I'd give the movie content itself a C grade. The stripper dragonfly and sonar squirrel really threw me off the seriousness of the underlying plot.

That was what I have been thinking too....out of all the cool X-men characters over the years who really thinks those are remotely great choices for originals?? Honestly outside of Hank and Raven, I think the rest could/should have been replaced with cooler choices. They should kept Darwin and not kill him off since he has atleast cool skills.

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post #92 of 194 Old 09-17-2011, 08:23 AM
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[quote=ObsceneJesster;20960542]I am not doubting one bit that ported subs can be everybit as accurate as sealed designs. I understand that there are people here who build, design and buy multiple $2000 subwoofers. Maybe I should have made myself clear in the begining but


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my comment was more geared towards those who have a $500 ported subwoofer that think it can extend down to 18Hz while still being tight and accurate. Sorry but its just not happening.

Extension is not proportional to displacement. A rythmik FV12 will extend to 16hz and sound tight and accurate. It won't displace a ton of air (high SPL at low frequency) but four of them will.

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Yes, I do still have the Emotiva X-Ref 10 but it will be on its way back once I receive the shipping label included with the X-Ref 12 I just purchased. Some extra money came up and I figured another $100 wasnt much at all for 2 more inches and twice as much power. Im just glad Emotiva doesn't charge for shipping as im sure its not cheap shipping subs back and forth.

Speaking of 18hz, the emotivas don't even hit 30hz adequately....

You can't just throw watts at sealed subs; you still inevitably hit their excursion limitations, whereas a vent actually reduces excursion near its tuning point..

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I was simply stating that the movie sounded great and that a sealed sub may have had something to do with it according to some research I have done.

Your sealed Emotiva sub that has no bass below 35hz? I watched this movie and just about all of the meaningful bass seemed to be in the 15 to 25hz region.

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I didn't really think people who prefered ported subs would take it to heart.

I neither took anything to heart, nor do I prefer ported subs. It's irritating though, when people make uneducated statements

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I happen to think (if done correctly) bass from a sealed cabinet sounds cleaner.

Are you even able to prove that you can identify a "correct" sealed cabinet vs a well designed ported cabinet, properly set up?

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Another notion I was trying to put to rest was people thinking just because a sub is ported, it can get lower. This fact does hold true, only if however, the same exact amplifier rated for the same wattage was running both. This is typically why you see decent companies putting two, three and four times the RMS wattage in their sealed offerings over their ported counterparts.

As I said earlier, watts aren't the only limitation at low frequency. Raw displacement is. I run sealed sub, but I would never run a sealed 12" sub, period. 15s, only if I had around six of em. Sealed 18s, only if I had two to six. At the $600 price point, the limited displacement of 10" and 12" woofers lends itself a lot better to vented subs.
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post #93 of 194 Old 09-17-2011, 08:32 AM
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Great points EV!!

People thinking their 12" sealed subwoofers are great should look at their distortion levels when pushed and look at the lack of extension also.

There is simply no way around the science behind subwoofer design. Extension down into the lower octaves needs displacement, displacement is a function of Xmax * surface area.

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post #94 of 194 Old 09-17-2011, 09:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

There is no difference in accuracy if either are setup properly in room and played within their maximized operating range. The Video shows raw response curves which is fine for explaining raw design differences but does not show the final solution in room which always should require proper EQing. Honestly when I watched I though someone was playing a poorly designed subwoofer which pretty much throws any conclusions out from that vid.

The reason people pick a ported design over a sealed design is simply because of $$$/performance. A ported design offers lower cost high output performance, it just takes more $$$ to get the same output from a sealed design. Ie. If you have $500, its just silly to think a Sealed design choice is the right choice for the best HT experience and if you want any sort of extension or output, Its easy a decision to go ported at that price point. Obviously Im not a fan of low cost Emotiva or Outlaw sealed type designs for HT, they are purely music subs that do not do very well below 30Hz.

FWIW, I own ported, sealed and even an IB array. I wish I had time to build a horn subwoofer too just to have all of them covered.

What kind of subs do you prefer and why?
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post #95 of 194 Old 09-17-2011, 09:26 AM
 
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Your sealed Emotiva sub that has no bass below 35hz? I watched this movie and just about all of the meaningful bass seemed to be in the 15 to 25hz region.

Have you measured the frequency response of the Emotiva sub?
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post #96 of 194 Old 09-17-2011, 10:17 AM
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Audioholics did a full review and test of it's bigger brother, the Emotiva 12. There we can see that the 12 drops off sharply below the low 30's. We can safely assume that the 10" is going to begin to drop off even higher up.
LL
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post #97 of 194 Old 09-17-2011, 10:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Audioholics did a full review and test of it's bigger brother, the Emotiva 12. There we can see that the 12 drops off sharply below the low 30's. We can safely assume that the 10" is going to begin to drop off even higher up.

No, I'm asking about the X-Ref 12, that just came out.
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post #98 of 194 Old 09-17-2011, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post


Nah, these debates have existed for years. Same discussions, some new participants. You should search in archives for some monster ones on the DIY forum where BOSSO and Steve Callas had HUGE arguements. BOSSO, recommends, supports, proves why overall sealed is better. Steve Callas is famous for the LLT/huge Sonotube Silo type designs.

I know they have been around for years just an influx in the last week. I would like to see the bosso thread where he proves sealed is better because i completely agree and would like to know why he thinks so. If you find the time to provide a link I would be much appreciative.
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post #99 of 194 Old 09-17-2011, 11:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Mpray1983 View Post

I know they have been around for years just an influx in the last week. I would like to see the bosso thread where he proves sealed is better because i completely agree and would like to know why he thinks so. If you find the time to provide a link I would be much appreciative.

That would be some great reading.
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post #100 of 194 Old 09-17-2011, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

No, I'm asking about the X-Ref 12, that just came out.

Sorry. I misunderstood the question.

It's still pretty new, but I'm sure tests will eventually show up. I don't really expect anything radically different from the old 12. It's the same formula: Small box, 12" driver, moderate though slightly more power. There is only so much you can do with that. I wouldn't expect the ground to shake, but it's probably going to sound good for what it is.
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post #101 of 194 Old 09-17-2011, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

That was what I have been thinking too....out of all the cool X-men characters over the years who really thinks those are remotely great choices for originals?? Honestly outside of Hank and Raven, I think the rest could/should have been replaced with cooler choices. They should kept Darwin and not kill him off since he has atleast cool skills.

I honestly thought the movie was pretty terrible. It has some bad characters like you said, but the whole plot was really stupid as well (Why would the villain want to nuke everything to then rule a radioactive wasteland??). Gotta love what happened to Darwin too .. Token black guy anyone?

Anyway. The movie had great audio, but other than that, it was as cheesy and generic as a movie can get.
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post #102 of 194 Old 09-17-2011, 12:34 PM
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I expect the Ref-X 12 (compared to the Ultra 12) to play louder, (3-6db) cleaner and with a bit better extension, perhaps down to 25hz without room gain. I also expect the DSP to keep distortion down at high SPL. What do you guys think?

I'm sure it will be a great all around sub for the money if you don't mind missing out on some of X-men's deeper bass passages
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post #103 of 194 Old 09-17-2011, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by RicHSAD View Post


I honestly thought the movie was pretty terrible. It has some bad characters like you said, but the whole plot was really stupid as well (Why would the villain want to nuke everything to then rule a radioactive wasteland??). Gotta love what happened to Darwin too .. Token black guy anyone?

Anyway. The movie had great audio, but other than that, it was as cheesy and generic as a movie can get.

Like Kevin bacon said...they were children on the atom and his goal was to create more mutants. I laughed when Darwin bit the dust first. I also liked the timeline of the movie especially during the same era as the civil rights movement. Kinda like district 9 taking place in south Africa and Apartheid.
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post #104 of 194 Old 09-17-2011, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by RicHSAD View Post

I honestly thought the movie was pretty terrible. It has some bad characters like you said, but the whole plot was really stupid as well (Why would the villain want to nuke everything to then rule a radioactive wasteland??). Gotta love what happened to Darwin too .. Token black guy anyone?

Anyway. The movie had great audio, but other than that, it was as cheesy and generic as a movie can get.

Darwin was the token black guy indeed. Wasn't to surprised by that. I still thought the movie was worlds better than Thor. I acually fell asleep during that movie though I admit it was late at night.

BTW: shouldn't there be a spoiler alert for this post?
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post #105 of 194 Old 09-17-2011, 12:45 PM
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Darwin was the token black guy indeed. Wasn't to surprised by that. I still thought the movie was worlds better than Thor. I acually fell asleep during that movie though I admit it was late at night.

BTW: shouldn't there be a spoiler alert for this post?

It's no spoiler that the black guy is going to die first...
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post #106 of 194 Old 09-17-2011, 12:48 PM
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It's no spoiler that the black guy is going to die first...

... I know
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post #107 of 194 Old 09-17-2011, 12:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Sorry. I misunderstood the question.

It's still pretty new, but I'm sure tests will eventually show up. I don't really expect anything radically different from the old 12. It's the same formula: Small box, 12" driver, moderate though slightly more power. There is only so much you can do with that. I wouldn't expect the ground to shake, but it's probably going to sound good for what it is.

Well lets us wait and see the actual numbers before rushing to judgment.
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post #108 of 194 Old 09-17-2011, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post


There is no difference in accuracy if either are setup properly in room and played within their maximized operating range. The Video shows raw response curves which is fine for explaining raw design differences but does not show the final solution in room which always should require proper EQing. Honestly when I watched I though someone was playing a poorly designed subwoofer which pretty much throws any conclusions out from that vid.

The reason people pick a ported design over a sealed design is simply because of $$$/performance. A ported design offers lower cost high output performance, it just takes more $$$ to get the same output from a sealed design. Ie. If you have $500, its just silly to think a Sealed design choice is the right choice for the best HT experience and if you want any sort of extension or output, Its easy a decision to go ported at that price point. Obviously Im not a fan of low cost Emotiva or Outlaw sealed type designs for HT, they are purely music subs that do not do very well below 30Hz.

FWIW, I own ported, sealed and even an IB array. I wish I had time to build a horn subwoofer too just to have all of them covered.

Have you heard their X-Ref line that has twice the output power than their previous line?
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post #109 of 194 Old 09-17-2011, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ObsceneJesster View Post

Have you heard their X-Ref line that has twice the output power than their previous line?

Have you measured it with a 115db @ 1m groundplane sweep from 10hz to 120hz?
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post #110 of 194 Old 09-17-2011, 01:23 PM
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Have you measured it with a 115db @ 1m sweep from 10hz to 120hz?

If I did then why would I ask you for the information? I don't know. That's why im asking.
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post #111 of 194 Old 09-17-2011, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post


Sorry. I misunderstood the question.

It's still pretty new, but I'm sure tests will eventually show up. I don't really expect anything radically different from the old 12. It's the same formula: Small box, 12" driver, moderate though slightly more power. There is only so much you can do with that. I wouldn't expect the ground to shake, but it's probably going to sound good for what it is.

Moderate to slightly more power? You mean twice as much power?
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post #112 of 194 Old 09-17-2011, 01:30 PM
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Moderate to slightly more power? You mean twice as much power?

It doesn't work like that. There are certain ratios that lead to twice as much power and I think you need like 24x the amount of power for it to be twice as loud. I'm not sure about the equations because all that is beyond me. I'm sure the others can explain it properly.
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post #113 of 194 Old 09-17-2011, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Mpray1983 View Post


It doesn't work like that. There are certain ratios that lead to twice as much power and I think you need like 24x the amount of power for it to be twice as loud. I'm not sure about the equations because all that is beyond me. I'm sure the others can explain it properly.

Sorry, I thought you were talking about amp power which is now 600 watts rms over the older model with 300 watts rms.
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post #114 of 194 Old 09-17-2011, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kesando View Post

I expect the Ref-X 12 (compared to the Ultra 12) to play louder, (3-6db) cleaner and with a bit better extension, perhaps down to 25hz without room gain. I also expect the DSP to keep distortion down at high SPL. What do you guys think?

I'm sure it will be a great all around sub for the money if you don't mind missing out on some of X-men's deeper bass passages

The typical in room freaquency response is 20Hz on paper. Is it safe to say some rooms that aren't typical will yield a lower or higher response? If you can get down to 20hz, what bass would you be missing out on? I didn't think we humans could hear anything much below 29Hz?
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post #115 of 194 Old 09-17-2011, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ObsceneJesster View Post


The typical in room freaquency response is 20Hz on paper. Is it safe to say some rooms that aren't typical will yield a lower or higher response? If you can get down to 20hz, what bass would you be missing out on? I didn't think we humans could hear anything much below 29Hz?

You need to check out the waterfall thread and see that their is lots of bass below 20hz on movies. It gives you the shaking, pressure, and tactile sensations you get in real life. It just depends on the goals of the individual. There are people that want surround sound at decent levels and others that want full THX reference levels for a spectacular cinema and many in between. The choices are much different depending on goals.
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post #116 of 194 Old 09-17-2011, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ObsceneJesster View Post


The typical in room freaquency response is 20Hz on paper. Is it safe to say some rooms that aren't typical will yield a lower or higher response? If you can get down to 20hz, what bass would you be missing out on? I didn't think we humans could hear anything much below 29Hz?

It's so cool when you can feel it. I can hear down to the low 20's but I love being able to feel 12hz and watching my windows shake.
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post #117 of 194 Old 09-17-2011, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kesando View Post

Darwin was the token black guy indeed. Wasn't to surprised by that. I still thought the movie was worlds better than Thor. I acually fell asleep during that movie though I admit it was late at night.

BTW: shouldn't there be a spoiler alert for this post?

Funny, i saw Thor at my local theater and it was lame...got a copy and watched it in my theater....WOW!
Like most movies there is just not enough power to fill local theaters to have action movies move you.

I can't count how many times movies totaly sucked in a regular theater setting, but once i watched them with ample power in my theater and a GREAT SUB it just becomes an 180 degree turn eye and EAR opening expierience!

I mean the music alone has SO much more tension to it that it forces you to give a damn as to what is going on screen. Heck even scary movies with hardly any LFE make you jump when LFE is used on the right places.

BUT YOU WILL NEVER FEEL THAT AT YOUR LOCAL THEATER.

There should be a thread entitled " Movies that sucked in local theaters but were were "SAVED BY BASS" in your home theater.

My first induction was my first wake up call years ago.
"End of days" was a total wreck localy...but at home i thought the cathedral scene at the end was epic!
"back then of course"! ;-)

matrixj
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post #118 of 194 Old 09-17-2011, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Mpray1983 View Post


It's so cool when you can feel it. I can hear down to the low 20's but I love being able to feel 12hz and watching my windows shake.

I know there is no way of you knowing the answer for sure due to a lot of factors involved. I would just like your opinion since you have felt these super low frequencies. Here's my dillema. I live in a end of group townhouse. My HT is on the side opposite of my neighbor and it is 90% underground surounded by concrete. We also have some pretty good walls in between the houses. I never hear them and they never hear me. I also talked with some other neighbors and asked them about hearing their neighbors and all of them said they never have. In your opinion based on what I just told you, at what frequency would my neighbors start to hear/feel it providing its at a decent db level.
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post #119 of 194 Old 09-17-2011, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ObsceneJesster View Post


I know there is no way of you knowing the answer for sure due to a lot of factors involved. I would just like your opinion since you have felt these super low frequencies. Here's my dillema. I live in a end of group townhouse. My HT is on the side opposite of my neighbor and it is 90% underground surounded by concrete. We also have some pretty good walls in between the houses. I never hear them and they never hear me. I also talked with some other neighbors and asked them about hearing their neighbors and all of them said they never have. In your opinion based on what I just told you, at what frequency would my neighbors start to hear/feel it providing its at a decent db level.

I have no idea...if it's too loud then just turn it down. The only way to know for sure would be to play sine waves at different levels and see what you can and can't hear. That to me seems like a massive waste of time so just be respectful late night and don't be stupid w/ the volume control.
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post #120 of 194 Old 09-17-2011, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matrixj3 View Post


Funny, i saw Thor at my local theater and it was lame...got a copy and watched it in my theater....WOW!
Like most movies there is just not enough power to fill local theaters to have action movies move you.

I can't count how many times movies totaly sucked in a regular theater setting, but once i watched them with ample power in my theater and a GREAT SUB it just becomes an 180 degree turn eye and EAR opening expierience!

I mean the music alone has SO much more tension to it that it forces you to give a damn as to what is going on screen. Heck even scary movies with hardly any LFE make you jump when LFE is used on the right places.

BUT YOU WILL NEVER FEEL THAT AT YOUR LOCAL THEATER.

There should be a thread entitled " Movies that sucked in local theaters but were were "SAVED BY BASS" in your home theater.

My first induction was my first wake up call years ago.
"End of days" was a total wreck localy...but at home i thought the cathedral scene at the end was epic!
"back then of course"! ;-)

There are actually movie theaters now called premier theaters that know how to play a movie properly.

They are:

Regal RPX 100,000 watt
Amc ETX theater
Cinemark XD
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