X-Men First Class - Page 7 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #181 of 194 Old 09-19-2011, 02:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Eternal Velocity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,332
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

I believe theres no such thing as too much bass, i was just going by what brian said. He makes the subs, he must know what he's talking about.

I would ask him "Why do you think that, Brian?"

Quote:
You think i should still be considering the rythmic F12? I don't know what kind of clean output it has at 20hz. You hardly see reviews for it.

x-max = 17.8mm
sd = 530cm

= 0.94 L of volume displacement

Assuming the amp is adequately powered, at 20hz, that's about 100db @ 1m (barely perceptable, and 15db lower than reference levels, although it's possible your room does you a big favour)... remember though that this would be with the little 12" driver working as hard as it possibly can, and there might be a powerful, unexpected 15hz tone that comes out of nowhere to push it even harder

Four would do about 12db more I believe, although slightly less if you optimally space them correctly rather than colocate them, but probably significantly more in your small room. Now all of a sudden that 100db at 20hz sounds less like.. well... sound because it's 20hz and isn't supposed to have a sound.

Then you'll probably never need more bass, or better sounding bass, in that particular room, and possibly other HT rooms.

Then you can focus on getting main speakers that excel, rather than trying yet again to find bass nirvana with a flawed approach.

Quote:
I don't think i have the space for multiple subs.

Then make space... you'll thank yourself later and never be on an endless "chase to find a sub that sounds good unequivocally".

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...0&postcount=13


Quote:
The only spot i could maby put a second sub is in the back left corner of the room, which has a doorway, and behind my LP. Which the sub would have to be up against the wall. Isnt there certain positions you have to locate multiple subs?

No, there isn't! That's what's great about multiple subs, you set them up well and they "dissapear" and integrate to give best response. Obviously having subs in all four corners will maximize excitation of modes and give you the most output, but basically if you can find a place to put it, put it there!

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/ge...-bass/two-subs

In fact a three or four sub setup will be orders of magnitude less sensitive about placement than a single sub.

Of course you do want similar time delays if they're different distances apart from the primary seating position, but something like a miniDSP ($150) can do that for you. Is that a big investmentÉ
Eternal Velocity is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #182 of 194 Old 09-19-2011, 04:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
kesando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Queens, New York
Posts: 1,551
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Just picked up First Class Today from Best Buy for $17.99. Will check it out this weekend
kesando is offline  
post #183 of 194 Old 09-21-2011, 03:55 PM
 
Auditor55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Silicon Valley, CA.
Posts: 8,795
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:


Then make space... you'll thank yourself later and never be on an endless "chase to find a sub that sounds good unequivocally".

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...0&postcount=13

He is in favor of going with 2 smaller subs over one bigger sub in the scenario he explained.
Auditor55 is offline  
post #184 of 194 Old 09-29-2011, 09:44 AM
Member
 
ja.jo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 127
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I watched this the other day and really enjoyed the LFE. Extremely powerful but tight. The magneto scenes are the best IMHO.

Check your levels!

/ Jacob
ja.jo is offline  
post #185 of 194 Old 10-03-2011, 04:15 PM
Member
 
Danknowsnothing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 50
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Watched this over the weekend. During the Magneto scenes my crappy sub was making clicking noises. I was hoping it'd break so I'd have an excuse to replace it heheheh. Out of curiosity, what failure would clicking indicate?
Danknowsnothing is offline  
post #186 of 194 Old 10-03-2011, 04:29 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,172
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 78 Post(s)
Liked: 395
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danknowsnothing View Post

Watched this over the weekend. During the Magneto scenes my crappy sub was making clicking noises. I was hoping it'd break so I'd have an excuse to replace it heheheh. Out of curiosity, what failure would clicking indicate?

It is already failing you just have to accept it!
MKtheater is online now  
post #187 of 194 Old 10-03-2011, 04:43 PM
Member
 
K5/SS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Seattle
Posts: 198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Reading all of this makes me wonder if my two small sealed subs will be adequate.....

Oppo BDP103, Mitsubishi WD8240, Klipsch RF-63's, Pioneer Elite SC-25, Furman Elite 15, Emotiva XPA-5, Harmony 1100, Rythmik FV15HP

K5/SS is offline  
post #188 of 194 Old 10-04-2011, 06:31 AM
Senior Member
 
rwheelwright's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 15
I watched this the other night but I didn't watch it was a great amount of volume since my g/f was in the room but I do remember that with my sub2 it sounded pretty freakin awesome! I'm gonna have to rewatch and listen more carefully.
rwheelwright is offline  
post #189 of 194 Old 10-09-2011, 12:12 AM
Member
 
K5/SS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Seattle
Posts: 198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 33
The LFE in this movie was crazy! I think it should be in the ***** category. And to answer my previous post, yes my sealed subs were adequate

Oppo BDP103, Mitsubishi WD8240, Klipsch RF-63's, Pioneer Elite SC-25, Furman Elite 15, Emotiva XPA-5, Harmony 1100, Rythmik FV15HP

K5/SS is offline  
post #190 of 194 Old 10-09-2011, 08:21 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cel4145's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 11,193
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked: 635
Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja12 View Post

I found a couple of spare hours yesterday to watch this movie. The overall mix was good. The bass was present when it needed to be but nothing exceptional. I would say WOTW, Hulk, 9, and a few other movies that I can't think of off the top of my head has much deeper bass. Like I said, the overall mix for this movie was good. Just my .02.

+1

I thought it was very good, too, but not as important to the narrative as the 5 star (and some 4 1/2 star) movies I have seen from the master bass movie list. It was fun to "notice" the effects, but the bass in X-Men did not create the same visceral immersion into the movie for me as in other movies. Using an Outlaw LFM-1 EX on ME.

cel4145 is offline  
post #191 of 194 Old 10-09-2011, 02:40 PM
Senior Member
 
morrischestnut60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 478
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Insane bass using ULS-15. WOW had insane bass during the Pod and Bridge destruction scenes. First Class had insane bass throughout the movie. Amazing.

Politics is like religion. You never know who you serve.
morrischestnut60 is offline  
post #192 of 194 Old 10-09-2011, 04:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,509
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 606
Posted in the Master List thread and thought I'd post i here. Yes, tons of low end... demo quality bass that just don't quit and all the way down to 3 Hz. Great stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

X-Men; 1st Class

Sound design: Craig Berkey, who worked on the first Transformers movie, I am Legend and was sound designer for I, Robot and X2...oh, and Hanna, as well!:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0075389/



Get ready, here comes a truckload, and I left a truckload on the table as well. This is a great bass flick. It's up there with any and all top bass flicks. Great mix and lots of low end to 3 Hz. Some of it hurt me and some of it shook my room off its center of gravity.

If you respond to this post, PLEASE do NOT hit the 'quote' button because of the length of this post.

To identify the chapter/scene, see the urls for the graphs. And, these are in chronological order.


































Bosso

bossobass is offline  
post #193 of 194 Old 10-10-2011, 01:24 PM
FOH
AVS Special Member
 
FOH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Midwest
Posts: 4,737
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I have to say that, after a decade of spirited debate, it's been great to read an intelligent poster who had his "eureka" moment, gets it and posts the information for others to absorb. Great stuff, FOH.

The debates over the years and that continue to this day of "Less filling!"... "Tastes great!" over this alignment vs that alignment have always been polluted with nonsense about which sounds "better, faster, tighter", etc. In fact, it has nothing to do with all of that and all of that only ever served to cloud the basic truths.

Tom Nousaine said it years ago... "Bass is bass". I've grown to love those simple, indisputable, black-and-white basic statements. Alignment is irrelevant if the reproduction is flat, clean at the desired playback level and properly calibrated with the rest of the system.

BTW, I also love that you've taken up the use of the word "system". Since the SW signal is never input directly into a box of whatever alignment with a driver in it, the low end is, by default, always handled by a system of components.

To the excellent post on PVG, I would make a simple correction; "Room Gain" is a phenomenon that comprises 2 elements: 1) Boundary Gain and 2) PVG. Boundary Gain results from reinforcement of the pressure waves from the driver (or horn mouth, or port, or passive radiators), which is the original point source, that result from additional point sources created by the reflective surfaces according to the placement of the sub in close proximity to boundaries.

So, the Room Gain phenomenon consists of an area of purely PVG, an area of transition, which is an interaction of PVG and BG and an area of purely BG.

As you mentioned, the PVG+BG are free lunch. LOTS of free lunch. Conventional wisdom says "There is no free lunch" and "There is no replacement for displacement". BG can add a theoretical +18dB and PVG can add a theoretical +18dB. That's an increase equivalent to adding 7 more of your subwoofer with no cost in space or $$. Sounds like free lunch to me. That's also an increase equivalent to adding 63 more of your drivers to your existing driver. Sounds like quite the replacement for displacement to me.

I discovered early on that the only way to properly utilize PVG was with the alignment that has the shallowest roll off with the least THD. Sealed wins. It's just a simple fact of life. All other alignments are band pass contraptions that have steeper roll off with much higher THD out of band (down low).

As you mentioned, there is a second advantage to the sealed alignment and PVG. This would be the fact that PVG happens to coincide nicely with reduction of harmonics as a percentage of the fundamental.

For example, if you see +9dB of gain per octave in your room, beginning at 30 Hz. At 8 Hz, say your sub gives 50% THD from HD2 (16 Hz) + HD3 (24 Hz) + HD4 (32 Hz) + HD5 (40 Hz) at ground plane.

PVG boosts the fundamental of 8 Hz by +18dB, but boosts the harmonics less, reducing their levels as a percentage. 2HD (16 Hz) is boosted by only +8dB, 3HD (24 Hz) is only boosted by +4dB, 3HD and 4HD & 5HD (32 Hz & 40 Hz) are not boosted at all. Essentially, this reduces the THD through 5HD from 50% to 10% and, since 2HD is still in the infrasonic range, the THD in the range of hearing is even less.

For those who might argue against this example, I took it from one of Sir Edward's reviews:



Unfortunately, it's not as simple as purchasing a bang for buck ID sealed sub. As you mention, it is a system that's required and starting with a 2nd order alignment doesn't assure you're ending with a 2nd order alignment.

Essential requirements for digging deep include having a signal chain that provides the signal as well, without rolling off too early, and an amplifier that can provide the juice below 20 HZ, as amplifiers tend to behave differently in the subsonic realm than their specs might indicate.

Warp, notnyt and others have done it right and are enjoying the results, room size notwithstanding (after all, 1/2 wave at 5 Hz is 110 feet, so I doubt room size matters for anyone at single digits). I've enjoyed it for many years now. I've asked many folks if and what difference they sense playing scenes with and without <20 Hz many times (mostly because it's great fun) and I only ever engaged in the debates with folks like the legendary Callas to keep the record straight, FWIW.

Thanks for the great post, I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Bosso

Bosso,

I missed this first time around, I thank you for the kind words. After decades in this hobby, it's a real pleasure discovering new things, and interacting with others with like interests. I must credit you with my huge smack of the forehead (certainly a "eureka" moment) when I read you post months ago regarding PVG, and the manner in which PVG boosts fundamental more-so than the upper harmonics. Wham, that hit me bigtime,...good stuff. Conversely, it makes quality large venue LF that much more impressive

Thanks again for the kind words

BTW; my floor ripples in waves too, despite the un-importance of the infra-range and genius PHD's claiming PVG being non-existent

------------------------------------
Flat, Deep, Clean, Linear, and Loud
------------------------------------
Active 16.8kw, 7.3 system
(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
(2)Seaton SubM-HP, (4)18" IB
FOH is offline  
post #194 of 194 Old 06-30-2012, 10:10 AM
Member
 
Sousa86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 182
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
i too must say x-men:fc really suprised me in the bass depo..

i thought i'd do a small experiment with multiple subs vs 1. first i just left my single fi q18 to play the scenes with magento..nice bass but continue reading..
i then took my diy ho sub and placed it in the room as well..did some lvl matching and replayed all the bass heavy scenes..and WOW! a really big difference!

pretty much anytime the x-men use their powers there is a rumble involved haha especially magneto's scenes! wink.gif
the second sub was a dual dayton HO 85l box with a o-audio 500w amp, even when its not really cranked i was able to tell an immediate difference in how the bass response changed entirely biggrin.gif
it can be best described as room/couch throbbing bass..very tactile and very natural sounding.
so +10 to any multiple sub system and for those of you who haven't taken the dive into multiple sub bass..i say jump in..ears first! biggrin.gif

it was truly a "Great Scott!!" moment haha

James Bond: I think I'll call it a Vesper.
Vesper Lynd: Because of the bitter aftertaste?
James Bond: No, because once you've tasted it, that's all you want to drink.

- CASINO ROYALE
Sousa86 is offline  
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off