SUBFEST 2011-HuskerOmaha and Desertdome's Subwoofer Showdown - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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Old 10-28-2011, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by BiGBADDABOOM View Post

The Rythmik from the pictures had the same position and driver orientation (front) as the SS-18.2. Though not dual drivers, it is sealed and had a very similar response to the SubM:


The question is if the second driver from the 18.2 that was firing into the wall had any effect on the response below 30hz. If the 18.2 drivers were oriented the same as the seaton, would the response have changed significantly?

-Mike
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Old 10-28-2011, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

The question is if the second driver from the 18.2 that was firing into the wall had any effect on the response below 30hz. If the 18.2 drivers were oriented the same as the seaton, would the response have changed significantly?

-Mike

What Mark said (in as diplomatic at way as he could) is... no.

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Old 10-28-2011, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

The question is if the second driver from the 18.2 that was firing into the wall had any effect on the response below 30hz. If the 18.2 drivers were oriented the same as the seaton, would the response have changed significantly?

-Mike

Less diplomatically... Nope. You can be 99% confident in this based on 3 details:
  1. The physics of moving woofers less than 3% of a wavelength tell us to expect no significant change, and this is assuming a 20" difference of the rear woofer vs. the Rythmik (front woofer the same), where it was only 8-14" difference from the SubMersive HP's woofer.
  2. Plenty of measurements done by users when rotating a dual opposed subwoofer show minimal changes, with all being at higher frequencies.
  3. If there was a loss in low frequency output due to the rear woofer, we would have seen about 1/2 that effect between the Rythmik's front firing subs and the SubMersive's side firing woofers which were closer to the front wall than the Rythmik.

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Old 10-28-2011, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

What Mark said (in as diplomatic at way as he could) is... no.

Bosso

Agreed. Rotating any one of my 3 Submersives has no significant impact on the response.

Craig

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Old 10-28-2011, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Why don't we just get a submersive, ss 18.1/18.2 to ricci and we can move on. Someone please step up. I will mail my 18.1 to Ricci if Craig doesn't. Anyone have a submersive to ship?
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Old 10-28-2011, 02:33 PM
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I had no change in response in my room either with rotating the drivers but I did have lots of low end. It was not flat but still had monster output at 10hz.

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Old 10-28-2011, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

Why don't we just get a submersive, ss 18.1/18.2 to ricci and we can move on. Someone please step up. I will mail my 18.1 to Ricci if Craig doesn't. Anyone have a submersive to ship?

What questions will that answer? I already know the roll off of the SubMersive HP and it performed as expected. As noted previously the response we listened to was the 2nd DSP mode which shifts the SubMersive's low frequency roll off seen on my forum (DSP Program 1) to the left such that the 19Hz level shifts to 15-16Hz (~+3.5dB below 20Hz with the correctly matched shape).

Sending a SubMersive HP to Ricci has been intended long before last weekend. As a business owner I have to be conscious of many things with respect to timing. I don't need Craig's chairity for the testing to happen. There's nothing holding up Craig from getting his subs to Ricci to prove whatever he feels he needs to prove. Testing the subwoofers to the extent Ricci does requires quite a bit of time. I'd be surprised if he would even be able to do more than a few in one day.

I gave a very plausible explanation of why the VS-18 & SS-18.2 appeared to have similar roll off in the measurements. With the ceiling fan and maybe the front fan on in the room the noise floor could have easily bumped up higher below ~15Hz and would cause exactly what was measured. The similarity of the Rythmik's VLF response and it's published response correlates very well, which simply suggests the 18.2 rolls off prematurely to deliver the response shape seen from the Rythmik and SubMersive HP in that position, in Husker's room.

For the record, I don't question the roll off shape of the SS-18.T/18.2 subwoofers paired with the SA-1000. If the internal boost is engaged and you figure a very slight roll off near 10Hz from the amp combined with the sealed box roll off of the 18" drivers, you get a slightly steeper than 12dB/octave roll off, but much more shallow than a high passed, vented box.

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Old 10-28-2011, 03:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Obviously I dont mean to offend or insult anyone's intelligence in this area. I'm just suggesting we get a sub to Ricci to test. That's all. He does a great job in his measurements and then people can see objective data without the subjective bs that we all argue and conjecture over.

I think that would be nice.

Anyways, the GTG was fun and Mark, Jeff, and Craig are passionate, honest guys that care about their hobby. I would not hesitate to purchase any of their products.
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Old 10-28-2011, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

Obviously I dont mean to offend or insult anyone's intelligence in this area. I'm just suggesting we get a sub to Ricci to test. That's all. He does a great job in his measurements and then people can see objective data without the subjective bs that we all argue and conjecture over.

I think that would be nice.

Anyways, the GTG was fun and Mark, Jeff, and Craig are passionate, honest guys that care about their hobby. I would not hesitate to purchase any of their products.

Then why are you hesitating? Order some more sealed and invite me up HO!

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Old 10-28-2011, 04:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kwarny View Post


Then why are you hesitating? Order some more sealed and invite me up HO!

I don't know who I want to order from, or go DIY with 4 mach 5 pi 18's. Looking at best value and performance combinations. Want to be done after this for a while
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Old 10-28-2011, 04:39 PM
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Want to be done after this for a while

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Old 10-28-2011, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

Obviously I dont mean to offend or insult anyone's intelligence in this area. I'm just suggesting we get a sub to Ricci to test. That's all. He does a great job in his measurements and then people can see objective data without the subjective bs that we all argue and conjecture over.

I think that would be nice.

Anyways, the GTG was fun and Mark, Jeff, and Craig are passionate, honest guys that care about their hobby. I would not hesitate to purchase any of their products.

Thanks Greg. I have taken no offense from your own comments, although Craig's "offer" to purchase subs from Jeff and I for testing was lame if not a bit condescending.

While measurements are an important piece of the puzzle, our listening last weekend made it clear that extensive measurements reveal a great deal, but still require a listening test to see if something was overlooked. Measurements also do not directly tell us what something will sound like, as we need both measurements and listening to strengthen the correlation.

This is a serious question, not a jab at the F20, but per most measurements presented, what would have predicted the subjective impressions of the F20's which would have shown substantial maximum output?

Mark Seaton
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Old 10-28-2011, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

This is a serious question, not a jab at the F20, but per most measurements presented, what would have predicted the subjective impressions of the F20's which would have shown substantial maximum output?

Maybe waterfalls if box and/or room resonances are the cause
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Old 10-28-2011, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

Want to be done after this for a while

Good luck with that.



Even with the uber system I am building (that is meant to be very long-term) might have me scratching for something new within no time.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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Old 10-28-2011, 05:11 PM
 
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I find bosso's suggested method for these GTGs or sub shootout/reviews in general to be the best of both worlds.

Use SpecLab waterfalls with a digital reference that many are familiar with in the sticky thread here. Cut down on the number of subs tested to the serious contenders, or at least plan enough time to do this right. With calibrated measurement gear, setup each sub in the same room properly and measure reference playback of the best scenes to capture a waterfall.

Distortion of any kind will be as visible as anything could be, and you can truly see which subs offer an accurate reproduction.

Bosso can expound, I'm sure I didn't do it justice. But it's always made sense to me as the best combination of objective data gathering, but using real-world material and practicality at the same time.
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Old 10-28-2011, 05:16 PM
 
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To hell with the room, give us consistent outdoor measurements ala Ilkka, apples to apples, and let us draw our own conclusions!

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...explained.html
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Old 10-28-2011, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiGBADDABOOM View Post

I find bosso's suggested method for these GTGs or sub shootout/reviews in general to be the best of both worlds.

He was pinged for suggestions prior to the GTG, but did not respond. He replies in the GTG thread, though.

We as a community should be helping one another... IMO.

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Old 10-28-2011, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

To hell with the room, give us consistent outdoor measurements ala Ilkka, apples to apples, and let us draw our own conclusions!

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...explained.html

Take the lead! What subs would you like to test first?

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Old 10-28-2011, 05:27 PM
 
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Take the lead! What subs would you like to test first?

If I had a large enough area for testing, and the sub manufacturers had large enough cojones to send me subs for measurements, then I certainly would! Unfortunately my yard is taken up by my pool, and the neighbors would never go for it. As far as the manufacturers sending subwoofers for measurement, that's a whole different story, I wish Ilkka was still doing it.
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Old 10-28-2011, 05:28 PM
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That's what Josh Ricci is doing.

www.data-bass.com

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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Old 10-28-2011, 05:29 PM
 
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That's what Josh Ricci is doing.

www.data-bass.com

I admire him for that, I hope he can live up to the Ilkka legacy!
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Old 10-28-2011, 05:34 PM
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I think he has already.

Still looking forward to his next batch of tests. I know he's been uber busy though.

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Old 10-28-2011, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

If I had a large enough area for testing, and the sub manufacturers had large enough cojones to send me subs for measurements, then I certainly would! Unfortunately my yard is taken up by my pool, and the neighbors would never go for it.

You could start by posting measurements of your own subs, and possibly your DIY Econowaves. Show us your moxie! Make people want to send you gear to test, and make us want to read about it.

GTG, FPB style would be cool, too.

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Old 10-28-2011, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

This is a serious question, not a jab at the F20, but per most measurements presented, what would have predicted the subjective impressions of the F20's which would have shown substantial maximum output?

solid point...

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Old 10-28-2011, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

What questions will that answer? I already know the roll off of the SubMersive HP and it performed as expected. As noted previously the response we listened to was the 2nd DSP mode which shifts the SubMersive's low frequency roll off seen on my forum (DSP Program 1) to the left such that the 19Hz level shifts to 15-16Hz (~+3.5dB below 20Hz with the correctly matched shape).

Sending a SubMersive HP to Ricci has been intended long before last weekend. As a business owner I have to be conscious of many things with respect to timing. I don't need Craig's chairity for the testing to happen. There's nothing holding up Craig from getting his subs to Ricci to prove whatever he feels he needs to prove. Testing the subwoofers to the extent Ricci does requires quite a bit of time. I'd be surprised if he would even be able to do more than a few in one day.

I gave a very plausible explanation of why the VS-18 & SS-18.2 appeared to have similar roll off in the measurements. With the ceiling fan and maybe the front fan on in the room the noise floor could have easily bumped up higher below ~15Hz and would cause exactly what was measured. The similarity of the Rythmik's VLF response and it's published response correlates very well, which simply suggests the 18.2 rolls off prematurely to deliver the response shape seen from the Rythmik and SubMersive HP in that position, in Husker's room.

For the record, I don't question the roll off shape of the SS-18.T/18.2 subwoofers paired with the SA-1000. If the internal boost is engaged and you figure a very slight roll off near 10Hz from the amp combined with the sealed box roll off of the 18" drivers, you get a slightly steeper than 12dB/octave roll off, but much more shallow than a high passed, vented box.

I have a question Mark about this fan contribution.
Say the normal room noise is 25db. How much of that would affect REW readings? I assumed it would'nt contribute enough to make a difference.
Now you have me curious and thinking about my own setup.
I'm only asking in general terms and I would assume this would affect all subs equally in the same room?
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Old 10-28-2011, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiGBADDABOOM View Post

I find bosso's suggested method for these GTGs or sub shootout/reviews in general to be the best of both worlds.

Use SpecLab waterfalls with a digital reference that many are familiar with in the sticky thread here. Cut down on the number of subs tested to the serious contenders, or at least plan enough time to do this right. With calibrated measurement gear, setup each sub in the same room properly and measure reference playback of the best scenes to capture a waterfall.

Distortion of any kind will be as visible as anything could be, and you can truly see which subs offer an accurate reproduction.

Bosso can expound, I'm sure I didn't do it justice. But it's always made sense to me as the best combination of objective data gathering, but using real-world material and practicality at the same time.

Actually, I nicked the idea from Keith Yates' standard-setting Way Down Deep series in Ultimate AV mag. I just didn't get around to actually doing the tests until much later.

SpecLab lets you 'see' what you're hearing in real time and as a comparison to the exact translation of the ones and zeroes through screen capture after the fact.

HTTYD, one of the scenes used at the GTG and one of the most difficult scenes of all time to reproduce at reference level, digital vs mic'd at the LP:



Irene is an excellent example because, in addition to frequency response linearity, bandwidth, compression (the usual suspects) it clearly exposes any and all even order harmonic distortion from all of the fundamentals of the effect, and you can even fairly approximate the total even order harmonic distortion. This, IMO, goes a lot longer toward identifying nuance differences in sonic signature than torturing a sub with a slow-burning sine sweep in a parking lot:



Looking at the Hulk Car bashing scene, here is a full BW, 10 Hz roll off and 20 Hz roll off, which is a close approximation to what the results would have been at the GTG. The middle graph would approximate the SM and the bottom graph, the CHT and Cap stuff. But, the dip in the teens seen in the in-room response would have shown up vs the digital:



It's data. It goes further to explaining subjective comments. It shows a lot of things in a single graph. Yates is cool as it gets and the nod goes to him. But, I've always believed that in-room data is more important than outdoor torturing, which only reveals how much torture it takes to get a confession.

Bosso
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Old 10-28-2011, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

He was pinged for suggestions prior to the GTG, but did not respond. He replies in the GTG thread, though.

We as a community should be helping one another... IMO.

As always, I appreciate your concern...

I have already made the suggestion and forwarded screen captures of all of my settings, more than once to several people. This isn't the first time I've made the suggestion. It is the first time I've had some spare time though, with an ailing mom living with us (she's doing great and back home now).

Bosso
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Old 10-28-2011, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sputter1 View Post

I have a question Mark about this fan contribution.
Say the normal room noise is 25db. How much of that would affect REW readings? I assumed it would'nt contribute enough to make a difference.
Now you have me curious and thinking about my own setup.
I'm only asking in general terms and I would assume this would affect all subs equally in the same room?

It's a good Q.

Scroll up to the comparo SL graph I posted of HTTYD and you can see the noise floor in the mic'd version from around 15 Hz down. Most measurement rigs will add their own noise down low as well. The point is that there is more noise in the infra range than there is above that, in a room as well as in a measurement system.

As long as the subs FR and level stays well above that floor, it will not be affected. It's when the sub is rolling off that it can fall into that noise floor, and it usually affects the trace with the peak/valley/peak scribble.

Bosso
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Old 10-28-2011, 06:42 PM
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As always, I appreciate your concern...

The concern is all yours. Glad you could find the time to post.

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Old 10-28-2011, 07:40 PM
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Tough to fathom that the submersive (dual 15's) can outperform the 18.2 (2 18" drivers) let alone a pair of 18.2's. Just seems crazy...
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