KC High End Subwoofer Blind Audition Interest Thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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Old 11-10-2011, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Duals allow all of the listeners in the room to have a more equitable listening experience.

Since that's pretty much the point of this event it's probably more important than not.

If it was feasible to have quads show up I'd prefer that.

I agree with this 1100%.

If duals or quads or whatever # are too clunky or big or anything along those lines, that shows a downside of the product.

I also hope for an evolution in the hobby away from the SPL level junkies and toward quality, which has to include full BW capability. I so disagree that a system has to be at 120dB playback to appreciate full BW capability. These statements about at what level ULF has to be presented are never backed by a shred of evidence and in my experience with full BW playback (which is more extensive than most everyone who posts on the subject) it just isn't so.

Sorry, I missed this as well, but did you describe the room (frame vs concrete, size, ceiling height)?

Bosso
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Old 11-10-2011, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

When: Tentatively Jan 14
Where: KC - Archaea's house
Why: Blind Audition 4-6 Top Shelf Subwoofers - provide blind ratings

Match single or duals across the board. If we only have singles we only test singles. If we can get duals of everything - test duals.

My room affords blind testing fairly well if we just place the subs in the back of the room and hang a sheet behind the seating position. The walk-out basement in the rear makes it very easy to move things in and out.

KC area guys with subs I'd be interested in lining up...

Counsil? - Seaton Submersive HP

Energyfun? - JL F113

tcottonab? - PB13 Ultra Sledge

Archaea? - Captivator Pro

HuskerOmaha? - CHT sub - 18.1 SS or 18.2 SS or 18.1 vs (whatever you end up with)

substitute as needed...

Anyone else who'd like to attend could do so as voting listeners. You are welcome to suggest/offer another audition offering if can think of something to line up against these subs. I'd like to keep the lineup length less than a half dozen entries to make the blind testing manageable. I'd like to recruit some expertise to manage the EQ. Desertdome? LukeKamp? Counsil? Any subs I missed that should surely be included in this lineup? Anyone local own a DD18 or DD18+??

How about the A-7 450 ported 18inch from ED
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Old 11-10-2011, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I agree with this 1100%.

If duals or quads or whatever # are too clunky or big or anything along those lines, that shows a downside of the product.

I also hope for an evolution in the hobby away from the SPL level junkies and toward quality, which has to include full BW capability. I so disagree that a system has to be at 120dB playback to appreciate full BW capability. These statements about at what level ULF has to be presented are never backed by a shred of evidence and in my experience with full BW playback (which is more extensive than most everyone who posts on the subject) it just isn't so.

Sorry, I missed this as well, but did you describe the room (frame vs concrete, size, ceiling height)?

Bosso


Here is my humble basement theater room - IIRC it is about 27 x 21 x 7 at largest dimensions, but with the fireplace and the stairway and the lowered HVAC duct across the center - I'm guessing about 3500 cubic foot. It is not sealed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSNz7tj1BVs
The video is a bit outdated. I've moved a couple things around, and changed my subs, dvd rack location, and projector screen. Look at the pics in my sig to see some of the changes.

It is concrete exterior wall on front and right wall as you face the projection screen (framed and drywalled) and just framed drywall on the left wall, and the back wall is an exterior wall as well with a walk out sliding glass door. The floor is concrete covered in tile. There are no acoustic treatments done to the room, and as you may have noted in the KC thread all of the guys said my room sucks the bass right up. I'll admit it isn't a grand room in the scale of rooms around these parts and the seating is right in the center of the room which is horrible. I'll also offer to let someone else host this event near KC if desired, but my house is available and I am willing to host.

The last point of note is that we probably will need to set the subs up behind the seating area to most easily do a blind comparison, then the subs can be taken in and out of the basement through the sliding glass door. A couple sheets can be hung behind the seating position and blind would pretty easily be accomplished as the listeners would not even be able to see behind them, nor would any trickery or blindfolds need be employed to mask what is going on behind the 'curtain'.

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Old 11-10-2011, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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My generic preference for the meet is for reference playback at 0 on the AVR with the mains and surrounds turned down about -4 or -6 db so as not to kill us with highs in my tiled and reflective room --- The volume not capped for a couple of designated show off scenes.

We could do quads possibly on some of these subs -- If mastermaybe drives down, if carp brings his cap over, and I've got my two there's four caps.

Counsil has four subms -- if he choses to attend - though so far I've not heard a yea or neah as to his interest.

As far as four on the others it is less likely as far as I know.

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Old 11-10-2011, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Deep bass is a funny thing because most people who think they are getting 15hz really are listening to 30hz. The reason for this is that most have not experienced loud 15hz bass. I say use reference levels because that is where all the dynamic bass occurs and low frequencies have to be high to be felt, if they are -10mv you will never feel them period so now you are comparing a sub that was built for 20hz and above against a sub built for a much wider bandwidth. The funny thing is the submersive usually wins anyways.

I have a question. How do we know or find out if the 15hz is being coloured by 30hz or by how much if at all?

For example, using my REW graph can we tell if the 15hz is actually 15hz?
I have a SMS bringing down 2 peaks for this graph fwiw.
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Old 11-10-2011, 08:46 AM
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"The funny thing is the submersive usually wins anyways."

Precisely.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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Old 11-10-2011, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I agree with this 1100%.

If duals or quads or whatever # are too clunky or big or anything along those lines, that shows a downside of the product.

I also hope for an evolution in the hobby away from the SPL level junkies and toward quality, which has to include full BW capability. I so disagree that a system has to be at 120dB playback to appreciate full BW capability. These statements about at what level ULF has to be presented are never backed by a shred of evidence and in my experience with full BW playback (which is more extensive than most everyone who posts on the subject) it just isn't so.

Sorry, I missed this as well, but did you describe the room (frame vs concrete, size, ceiling height)?

Bosso

As I stated yday, I too agree with the point. Matter of fact, I feel that "making the listening experience equitable (or at least, more equitable) for everyone" to be the only valid reason for duals.

But I would add that not everyone concerned with output are "spl junkies" ...there are a good number with LargeR spaces who have valid reasons for perhaps desiring an extra 3-6 dbs in range "x".

Again too: adding more subs to reach level "x" at "y" frequency(s) is simply a matter that we're never going to agree upon and prolly strikes right at the heart of Seaton's basic assertion that you can't have it all in one shot.

As for my attendance, I'm REALLY going to try to make this work. As noted, I just had my first kidling, but I'll be off of work the entire month of January so perhaps I can pull some strings. Jeff P is near me and I have a Honda Pilot that I can easily pack quite a bit of gear into, so that's plus.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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Old 11-10-2011, 08:57 AM
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I for one would be VERY interested in an A7-450 being on-hand. It came down to that vs the Cap in the end for me...the Cap was just a much better choice for me logistically.

oops, sorry for the triple post, gang.


James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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Old 11-10-2011, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sputter1 View Post

I have a question. How do we know or find out if the 15hz is being coloured by 30hz or by how much if at all?

For example, using my REW graph can we tell if the 15hz is actually 15hz?
I have a SMS bringing down 2 peaks for this graph fwiw.


I think James is just saying that people think they are hearing 15hz when in fact it's a higher frequency that they are hearing. I.e., most people will watch a movie like the new Transformers movie, hear some really great low bass at high levels and think it must be "below 20hz" when in fact the movie is filtered so that it doesn't even permit much sub 20hz content at a decent SPL level, but the 30hz stuff is aplomb and sounds/feels "deep" so they may think they are getting 15hz when it's actually north of 25hz.

Or, take any scene that does in fact have 15hz content, it's obviously going to be mixed with heavy aspects of 20/25/30/35hz stuff intermixed at the same time. What would be cool is to watch a movie with the Spec Labs software running at the same time so you can see where the sub 20hz stuff is hitting.

I recall with my Mirage OM200 (first sub) I thought I was getting lots of really low stuff. Then I upgraded to the PB13, and then figured out "okay, now I know what I was missing". Now with the absolute overkill I have in my room (single PB13 nearfield in sealed mode and 2 dual AV15H subs upfront), there are passages where my head feels like it's going to implode which I don't recall feeling before (or at least not to the same extent).

Jim - run increasing sweeps to about 105/110db (listen for stress on the woofer though) to see if the sweeps remain linear and check for THD as well. If you're "hearing" a lot during the first part of the sweep (10hz to 20hz) it's likely more distortion than anything else.

At 75db you're not going to feel 15hz. But if I recall, you have a ton of room gain at least in one corner up to about 25hz (I recall huge peaks with the PB13 there!).

 

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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Old 11-10-2011, 09:08 AM
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PBC: I don't know if you're referring to me or MKtheater (is he a James too, lol?), because I think you're nailing HIS thoughts down, not mine.

My basic assertion is two-fold: 1. Let's see how single subs perform and let folks extrapolate/infer what they may regading duals or quads. 2. Perception is reality. If people are being "tricked" into thinking a unit offers better/lower/whatever bass, so be it. There's no magic going on of course it's simply folks' listening and making an (ideally) unbiased determination.

And crucially, if the listeners' involved cannot discern real low ~10-15hz bass from 30-40 you really have to wonder about the validity of the whole operation to begin with- at least in the VLF neighborhood. I'm certainly not a golden ear, but I definitely get a different feeling from 10-20 hz output than 30-40. Many seem to have readily remarked the same after comparing the Cap and SubM at the KC GTG, so perhaps we're selling ourselves a bit short here.

I understand there are other views on the matter, the above is simply my own.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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Old 11-10-2011, 09:47 AM
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They did comparisons last time at Archaea's place with lots of single subs where the results were largely dependent and correlated to the overload behavior of the different subwoofers and we obviously have the impressions from the most recent Omaha subfest. I'm simply suggesting to do something different that will push the output limits further out allowing for a wider range of comparisons and possibilities.

It likely works in my favor and/or JTR's if you use Audyssey and single subs, so this isn't just about tipping scales. At the Omaha meet after running through the demo all I could think of was how I'd love for more guys to hear what a pair of SubMersive HP's could add to what they heard at the same levels and certainly pushed a little harder.

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Old 11-10-2011, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

PBC: I don't know if you're referring to me or MKtheater (is he a James too, lol?), because I think you're nailing HIS thoughts down, not mine.

My basic assertion is two-fold: 1. Let's see how single subs perform and let folks extrapolate/infer what they may regading duals or quads. 2. Perception is reality. If people are being "tricked" into thinking a unit offers better/lower/whatever bass, so be it. There's no magic going on of course it's simply folks' listening and making an (ideally) unbiased determination.

And crucially, if the listeners' involved cannot discern real low ~10-15hz bass from 30-40 you really have to wonder about the validity of the whole operation to begin with- at least in the VLF neighborhood. I'm certainly not a golden ear, but I definitely get a different feeling from 10-20 hz output than 30-40. Many seem to have readily remarked the same after comparing the Cap and SubM at the KC GTG, so perhaps we're selling ourselves a bit short here.

I understand there are other views on the matter, the above is simply my own.

James

Sorry ... MK's point that Sputter1 had quoted in his post above.

 

My DIY Subs ... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233892

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Old 11-10-2011, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
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James,

I think the blind testing will rule out the notion of perception vs. reality.

I remain unconvinced that I'll even note deeper extension than 15hz. We shall see, and I'm ready and willing to be proved wrong -- if that is the case.

I have heard five Seaton Submersive HPs in the same room and didn't go gaga for the mystical missing frequencies that could only then be present on the Scuba Steve Demo Disk when listening to specific subwoofers that can produce these frequencies (the same disk I've listened to on multiple occasions in many different setups, HSU, Caps, SVS, Submersives etc). So I remain a skeptic (NOT to the quality of a Submersive HP, but to the importance and recognizability of sub 15hz frequencies) - I'm curious to see if the extension is recognized in blind testing by a group of listeners, and I'm willing to give the submersives -- (or any sealed subs) the multiples they may need to present that treat. I don't think Mark has ever really argued that his Submersive HP can square off against the Captivator in an all out SPL drag race - I think we all can appreciate that the Cap would win that battle (and that Mark intends to challenge that front in a future product release). But if the Caps are missing something that can easily and fairly be noted in average scores through a blind listening test at spirited volumes --- wouldn't we all really like to know? And vice versa? Cause if the touted extension preference can't be reproduced in blind testing - then it comes down to ported or sealed sound preference and perhaps a bit of a headroom preference in your decision on sub purchase option.

I'm curious to know either way!


I'm just one man's preference and I'm not forcing my preference on this show. This is still just an idea gathering thread and all ideas and counters remain welcome! The meet is very likely to happen - lets continue to vett out the details!

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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Old 11-10-2011, 11:53 AM
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I've always had my reservations about the imperativeness of sub 15hz material as well, having heard it well-produced on a few occasions. I just have learned not to get into it with people.

No one wins. Who's going to tell another what they like/detect/feel, you know?

That said, I'm as anxious as you are to be proven "wrong".

Just a text-book excuse to upgrade/add-on.

duh.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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Old 11-10-2011, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

It always comes back to what guys want to compare.

There is no perfect comparison, only a series of possible snapshots. In the Omaha subfest, they decided to attempt to EQ each subwoofer to a similar passband target. This makes for an very interesting comparison of how designs differ beyond just the frequency response and looks closer at the potential from those spending more time measuring their systems, but helps some products much more than others. Those who are just plugging subwoofers in a room with moderate placement and level adjustment effort could have very different impressions. The usefulness of different comparisons depends on how similar the conditions are to other enthusiasts.

So far as singles or duals, the one problem is that to really get a feel for the VLF capabilities and how impressive some of the subs are, you need to listen at a sufficiently high level. For most subwoofers you will find a clear point where listening 5dB louder or softer will dramatically change what is heard. So what level do you want to judge the sub's performance at? What happens when the level you choose is just below this comfortable playback level of one sub, and just over another?

Using multiples gives a better chance of hearing what the subs can do within their output limits, but again is that what you want to determine or compare?

Good points and I agree if you want to know what the differences are within the comfort zone of each sub duals makes sense, or a lower listening volume.

Are the subs not going to be EQ matched this time around? I still see this as vital personally. Differences in basic FR shape will be easily discerned otherwise. I'm the type of person that no matter what subwoofer is being used in my room it will end up getting shaped into the same basic response as any other with the exception of extension ultimately. Whether the system can maintain that response with my preffered playback level is another matter. Anyone wishing to get the best overall performance that they can from a particular room/sub combo will likely need to shape the signal to some extent for the final cherry on top. Certainly you are correct that the number of people like me are probably vastly outweighed by plug in and let it rip types though.

I didn't pick up on the side endeavor of this foray being VLF playback and it's audibility in a blind setting. Yeah to ensure that you get a real sense of the <16Hz stuff you'll need at least a couple of heavy hitters to provide headroom. Archaea's point about using duals to smooth the room response at multiple positions has some merit as well.

Archaea,
I have to wonder how you will hide duals of some of these rather large subs while the others are being listened to though? Are all going to be fit behind a screen wall at once or something? If you can pull it off more power to yah.

You guys are actually planing on near REF level playback for most of a day? That's going to cause some ear fatigue by the end.
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Old 11-10-2011, 12:24 PM
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^ Precisely regarding ref level playback and fatigue.

That's why I'd be all for REALLY paring back the movie and music demo segments. Listening to 20 clips of either is just asking for it, IMO.

getting down to 10 or less all day I think would work wonders for the purposes of:

Time. Effort. And perhaps most importantly, comparison's sake. So many clips and subs has to begin to blur distinctions amongst the units, no?

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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Old 11-10-2011, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by stormwind13 View Post

so mark is going to have the terraform xl complete in time for this?

I missed this earlier, but got a few e-mails about it since... While not impossible, they are not yet finalized. I won't make any commitment on these, as parts may be limited in availability, they are expensive to produce, and even more of a pain to transport at near 300 lbs and 54" long.

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Old 11-10-2011, 12:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Archaea,
I have to wonder how you will hide duals of some of these rather large subs while the others are being listened to though? Are all going to be fit behind a screen wall at once or something? If you can pull it off more power to yah.

See post 93

And James - - I agree with you on limiting the clips and their length. I'd like to avoid hearing nothing but explosions and rumble for 30 minutes. I want to hear the subs finesse as well. Some quality song recommendations are definitely in order. At the previous KC meet we listened to the music section at -10 to avoid ear fatigue. I think we got that wrong and should have turned that portion up a few notches. If you keep the subs at reference level, but turn the mains down ... say 6dB... it ought to be quite tolerable, and then you can clearly hear the subs as well.

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Old 11-10-2011, 01:06 PM
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As far as I'm bothered, why not get it down to (5) 30-45 second movie clips and the same for music?

Again, I think it would vastly help the recollection/familiarity of the listeners with the performances/material.

I've never understood listening to a dozen 5 minute passages in movies or entire songs in exercises like this when most scenes in films or bass-lines in songs can be exploited in 30-45 seconds. Maybe that's me though.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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Old 11-10-2011, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

I missed this earlier, but got a few e-mails about it since... While not impossible, they are not yet finalized. I won't make any commitment on these, as parts may be limited in availability, they are expensive to produce, and even more of a pain to transport at near 300 lbs and 54" long.

It would definitely be cool to hear/see one in person.
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Old 11-11-2011, 10:49 AM
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See post 93

And James - - I agree with you on limiting the clips and their length. I'd like to avoid hearing nothing but explosions and rumble for 30 minutes. I want to hear the subs finesse as well. Some quality song recommendations are definitely in order. At the previous KC meet we listened to the music section at -10 to avoid ear fatigue. I think we got that wrong and should have turned that portion up a few notches. If you keep the subs at reference level, but turn the mains down ... say 6dB... it ought to be quite tolerable, and then you can clearly hear the subs as well.

Spoken like a true "SPL drag racer" ... and not a VLF "brown note chaser".

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Old 11-11-2011, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Spoken like a true "SPL drag racer" ... and not a VLF "brown note chaser".

Reference level bass is SPL drag racing?

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Old 11-11-2011, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Reference level bass is SPL drag racing?

The comment was directed at this comment:

Quote:


I also hope for an evolution in the hobby away from the SPL level junkies and toward quality, which has to include full BW capability.

I used your description SPL drag racing because it rhymed with brown note chasing ...

explaining one's attempt at humor ... AWKWARD

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Old 11-14-2011, 06:20 PM
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I'm boycotting this GTG unless Archaea promises not to make it into a drag meet.

If he does anyway, I'll grab the 383 stroker and show that grocery getter what true drag racing looks like.
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Old 11-14-2011, 06:30 PM - Thread Starter
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First off Greg - I like you and thus it's a requirement that you attend. I also still think ported subs may have a little something or other to prove to you.

But whats all this nonsense about dB drag meet. I'm not talking about knocking the house down. I am suggesting that we play the subs at such a level that we can recognize and be impressed by their output as well as their sound quality! Unlike at the Omaha meet where KCNitro07 left thinking his BIC F12 was very competitive with the top shelf subs that were there because we played them all at low volumes. :P

as to real drag racing...

I've got a 383 stroker as well in my project vette. What are you driving that has a stroker in it? I only saw yuppie mobiles at your place.

If you like a stroker then you really are a closet cap fan.

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Old 11-15-2011, 12:07 PM
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If I come, someone want to pick me up from the airport? haha

caveat: must have duals...

EDIT: Just looked up plane flights and times, it could be feaseable if this thing gets 100% go. Probably my only shot to hear all these top notch subs all at the same time. I cant imagine anything better really for me ive been a bass head from day one when I was custom building boxes before I even had a car to put em in

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Old 11-15-2011, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

First off Greg - I like you and thus it's a requirement that you attend. I also still think ported subs may have a little something or other to prove to you.

But whats all this nonsense about dB drag meet. I'm not talking about knocking the house down. I am suggesting that we play the subs at such a level that we can recognize and be impressed by their output as well as their sound quality! Unlike at the Omaha meet where KCNitro07 left thinking his BIC F12 was very competitive with the top shelf subs that were there because we played them all at low volumes. :P

as to real drag racing...

I've got a 383 stroker as well in my project vette. What are you driving that has a stroker in it? I only saw yuppie mobiles at your place.

If you like a stroker then you really are a closet cap fan.

Loud and Proud is a good motto! Acknowledge it, Own it!

I think we should do singles, less is more, use audyssey, and do blind. playback at higher levels than omaha but not above 115 average to avoid ear fatigue.
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Old 11-16-2011, 06:17 PM
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Is a 'single' sub with dual drivers a single sub? Consider the troubles Ricci encountered compensating for the Empire.

Dual subs shouldn't be discounted, especially in a difficult room.

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Old 11-16-2011, 06:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

Is a 'single' sub with dual drivers a single sub?

The unanswerable question!

I'd really like to do at least duals. I have a tough room as evidenced by the comments of every single attender at the KC meet and we've already done singles in my room in May. I think most people who end up buying a top shelf sub setups end up wanting at least duals don't they? Greg how many f20's did you have? How many 18.1s do you have? How many 18.2's will you end up buying?

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Old 11-16-2011, 07:07 PM
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I'm now wondering what greg has that has a 383 stroker in it. I had a 383 stroker camaro for a while when I lived in NE. I sold it to a dealership that specializes in classic camaros and they in turn sold it to someone in the omaha/lincoln area. Man would it be ironic if it turned up in greg's possession.
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