Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 106 - AVS Forum
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Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers > Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread
Saturn94's Avatar Saturn94 03:24 PM 05-27-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

reread my post... I said the xv30f would have a performance advantage at the cost of more audible THD IF ANY! down firing subs help mask thd because harmonics dont bend easy. the thing is both designs are very capable and in most rooms the difference will not be very noticeable because of the output levels both will achieve before any of the previously mentioned will be noticeable. so in the end with the increasing costs, it was a no brainer for Tom to change the design to keep current pricing without sacrificing much in terms of performance and sound quality...basically its a wash between both designs from a performance stand point.

Thanks for the clarification. smile.gif

I don't exactly understand Bosso's post and you mentioned your preference for down firing subs based on that I formation. If you don't mind, could you explain this and your sub preference to me? We can take this to PM as I don't want to derail this thread. smile.gif

jbrown15's Avatar jbrown15 03:41 PM 05-27-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

Dual Triax's confirmed.

A big thanks to Tom and Jim. You guys go above and beyond, thats why I will always buy your products as long as you make em. However I am asking you don't make anything new in the next year, I'm going broke tongue.gif

So looking forward to these bad boys.

It'll be great to get some impressions of your new Triax's when they arrive and the dual Cap S2's you heard at the GTG.
gigging's Avatar gigging 04:08 PM 05-27-2013
I have a new, sealed off, 2050^3 movie room. I have klipsch Rf-7 ii fronts and a klipsch rc-64 ii center. I'm added sides and rears soon, but for now all I have are these 3 speakers hooked up and I brought an old HTIB onkyo subwoofer in to my room to check out what everything sounded like... The subwoofer is a 10 inch, down firing, 230 watts. Soon I'm ordering (2) xs-30's and bringing them in to the mix. Needless to say I'm very excited. This is my very first setup, I watched underworld and battle LA last night with my temporary setup and I thought it sounded amazing. I don't know what to expect once I put (2) xs-30's in there, but I sure can't wait to find out.
I just wanted to say thank you to everyone because I'm learning so much by reading this forum.
basshead81's Avatar basshead81 04:15 PM 05-27-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by gigging View Post

I have a new, sealed off, 2050^3 movie room. I have klipsch Rf-7 ii fronts and a klipsch rc-64 ii center. I'm added sides and rears soon, but for now all I have are these 3 speakers hooked up and I brought an old HTIB onkyo subwoofer in to my room to check out what everything sounded like... The subwoofer is a 10 inch, down firing, 230 watts. Soon I'm ordering (2) xs-30's and bringing them in to the mix. Needless to say I'm very excited. This is my very first setup, I watched underworld and battle LA last night with my temporary setup and I thought it sounded amazing. I don't know what to expect once I put (2) xs-30's in there, but I sure can't wait to find out.
I just wanted to say thank you to everyone because I'm learning so much by reading this forum.

keep your eyes peeled in the xs30 b stock section. I got a feeling jbrowns xs30's will be there very soon. wink.gif
brendelac's Avatar brendelac 07:47 PM 05-27-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

keep your eyes peeled in the xs30 b stock section. I got a feeling jbrowns xs30's will be there very soon. wink.gif
or maybe he'll choose to re-sell it on the local market to someone like me smile.gif
jbrown15's Avatar jbrown15 08:50 PM 05-27-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by brendelac View Post

or maybe he'll choose to re-sell it on the local market to someone like me smile.gif

You never know! wink.gif
lsdec's Avatar lsdec 09:05 PM 05-27-2013
For a whopping savings of 57 dollars and 45 cents!!! smile.gif
jbrown15's Avatar jbrown15 10:00 PM 05-27-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by lsdec View Post

For a whopping savings of 57 dollars and 45 cents!!! smile.gif

No I'd help out a fellow Canuck a little more then that. wink.gif
Cowboys's Avatar Cowboys 06:46 AM 05-28-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

I don't believe the next product we introduce will be a subwoofer.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
High sensitivity horn speakers? If so, I will be waiting to grab some bookshelves for my front LCR channels.
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar Tom Vodhanel 07:49 AM 05-28-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

Thanks for the clarification. smile.gif

I don't exactly understand Bosso's post and you mentioned your preference for down firing subs based on that I formation. If you don't mind, could you explain this and your sub preference to me? We can take this to PM as I don't want to derail this thread. smile.gif

Nah, derail away. This is our support thread so feel free to inquiry about all of this stuff(it isn't derailing at all imo). My answers are often less than clear and I apologize for that. Time restraints combined with trying to decide just how deeply I should delve into various subject matter is always a challenge. I'll spend 15 minutes on an email answer and the reply is sometimes..."well, thank you very much for all the information. I have no idea what you are talking about though"..smile.gif

Please keep in mind, if the general issue being discussed is the harmonic distortion possibly causing an issue with localization----the XV30 and XV30f both have *very* low distortion. with subwoofers harmonics are usually caused by several different things. Only two really apply here.

1) driver excursion exceeding the linear limits of their motor.
2) amplifier clipping.

Our amplifiers won't *clip* in this manner barring something extremely unusual. In the XV30f the driver excursion remains linear throughout the entire operating bandwidth even at max output. We're looking at about 375w to each of the 15s in the XV30f. Combine that with the tremendous drop in driver excursion the ported design enjoys and large(or even moderate) amounts of harmonic distortion is simply not something that will occur with this design.

We're behind on quite a few things on the website. If we ever get caught up we'll put together some excursion graphs for each model that will illustrate this.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Saturn94's Avatar Saturn94 09:29 AM 05-28-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Nah, derail away. This is our support thread so feel free to inquiry about all of this stuff(it isn't derailing at all imo). My answers are often less than clear and I apologize for that. Time restraints combined with trying to decide just how deeply I should delve into various subject matter is always a challenge. I'll spend 15 minutes on an email answer and the reply is sometimes..."well, thank you very much for all the information. I have no idea what you are talking about though"..smile.gif

Please keep in mind, if the general issue being discussed is the harmonic distortion possibly causing an issue with localization----the XV30 and XV30f both have *very* low distortion. with subwoofers harmonics are usually caused by several different things. Only two really apply here.

1) driver excursion exceeding the linear limits of their motor.
2) amplifier clipping.

Our amplifiers won't *clip* in this manner barring something extremely unusual. In the XV30f the driver excursion remains linear throughout the entire operating bandwidth even at max output. We're looking at about 375w to each of the 15s in the XV30f. Combine that with the tremendous drop in driver excursion the ported design enjoys and large(or even moderate) amounts of harmonic distortion is simply not something that will occur with this design.

We're behind on quite a few things on the website. If we ever get caught up we'll put together some excursion graphs for each model that will illustrate this.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Thanks Tom.

Perhaps you could give a "sub for dummies" version of this quote as it pertains to down firing vs front firing:
Quote:
...Going a step further, the up/down (or single down firing) configuration keeps the driver distance equal from all 3 boundaries (2 walls/floor), which virtually eliminates 1/4 wave boundary cancellations around the crossover point, and which is not possible with a dual opposed front firing sub".

"Comparing a single driver FF vs single driver DF sub yields 2 fundamental differences; a) The DF sub only delivers reflected sound waves while the FF sub always delivers the direct-radiated wave first, followed by reflected waves and b) the DF sub has a driver whose acoustic loading is different from the FF sub because the FF sub fires into what can be considered to be much closer to free air while the DF sub fires into the floor from a relatively short distance....

Also, I noticed in these distortion measurements for the XV15 from Audioholics distortion rises at the upper end of the frequency band. To me, it seems like the distortion is high, but my knowledge of what's considered high is admittedly lacking.

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/xv-15-subwoofer/LXV15THDGRAPH.PNG/image_view_fullscreen

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/xv-15-subwoofer/IXV15CEA2010CHART.PNG/image_view_fullscreen

Some owners have expressed a preference for down firing and I'm trying to understand if there are audible reasons why or is it because it looks better on paper.

It's been a long time since I've shopped for a sub (found my receipt for my 16-46PC+; took delivery in January 2003!). For some reason it seems like more work this time. eek.gifbiggrin.gif
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar Tom Vodhanel 10:20 AM 05-28-2013
Hi Saturn,

I'd rather not attempt to interpret other(or other manufacturer's) intent in this context. Remember though, if there were clear reasons for subwoofer's to be oriented down, or front, or otherwise....everyone would design everything that way. There are very subtle advantages that could be submitted for every configuration. And, conversely, there are very subtle disadvantages too. In the end, these tend to offset. The overall quality of the subwoofer design will outweigh anything that has to do with the driver orientation by many, many magnitudes.

In reference to the XV15 distortion plot. Yes, as with all subwoofers, distortion will rise and fall versus output levels at various frequencies. But you must correlate the rise against the audibility thresholds. Also consider the input signal and how that will translate to real world source material. Lastly, I can assure you, your 46PC+ produces more distortion in the same "upper band" that you seemed concerned about. Being you haven't noticed it for the last 10 years....that would seem to be a good indicator of its importance in the big picture..smile.gif

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Saturn94's Avatar Saturn94 04:09 PM 05-28-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Hi Saturn,

I'd rather not attempt to interpret other(or other manufacturer's) intent in this context. Remember though, if there were clear reasons for subwoofer's to be oriented down, or front, or otherwise....everyone would design everything that way. There are very subtle advantages that could be submitted for every configuration. And, conversely, there are very subtle disadvantages too. In the end, these tend to offset. The overall quality of the subwoofer design will outweigh anything that has to do with the driver orientation by many, many magnitudes.

In reference to the XV15 distortion plot. Yes, as with all subwoofers, distortion will rise and fall versus output levels at various frequencies. But you must correlate the rise against the audibility thresholds. Also consider the input signal and how that will translate to real world source material. Lastly, I can assure you, your 46PC+ produces more distortion in the same "upper band" that you seemed concerned about. Being you haven't noticed it for the last 10 years....that would seem to be a good indicator of its importance in the big picture..smile.gif

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

I greatly appreciate the feedback and clarification. I do realize that what can be measured cannot necessarily be heard. I have no clue what the threshold of audibility is with regards to subs.

It's interesting you mention my 16-46PC+. I was commenting to a friend earlier today that it would be nice to know the distortion, frequency response, and output abilities of my sub. That would give me an excellent point of reference. I tried finding that information online, but no luck. Perhaps SVS might have this info in their archives?

Could it be said that different configurations, assuming quality design otherwise, sound a little different from each other and at that point it just comes down to personal preference? Or am I off base here?

Thanks. smile.gif
r0n1n's Avatar r0n1n 08:19 PM 05-28-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by CRAZYKAT View Post

Congratulations, You'll love it. smile.gif

Thanks! smile.gif
jevansoh's Avatar jevansoh 09:02 PM 05-28-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

Thanks for the clarification. smile.gif

I don't exactly understand Bosso's post and you mentioned your preference for down firing subs based on that I formation. If you don't mind, could you explain this and your sub preference to me? We can take this to PM as I don't want to derail this thread. smile.gif

Nah, derail away. This is our support thread so feel free to inquiry about all of this stuff(it isn't derailing at all imo). My answers are often less than clear and I apologize for that. Time restraints combined with trying to decide just how deeply I should delve into various subject matter is always a challenge. I'll spend 15 minutes on an email answer and the reply is sometimes..."well, thank you very much for all the information. I have no idea what you are talking about though"..smile.gif

Please keep in mind, if the general issue being discussed is the harmonic distortion possibly causing an issue with localization----the XV30 and XV30f both have *very* low distortion. with subwoofers harmonics are usually caused by several different things. Only two really apply here.

1) driver excursion exceeding the linear limits of their motor.
2) amplifier clipping.

Our amplifiers won't *clip* in this manner barring something extremely unusual. In the XV30f the driver excursion remains linear throughout the entire operating bandwidth even at max output. We're looking at about 375w to each of the 15s in the XV30f. Combine that with the tremendous drop in driver excursion the ported design enjoys and large(or even moderate) amounts of harmonic distortion is simply not something that will occur with this design.

We're behind on quite a few things on the website. If we ever get caught up we'll put together some excursion graphs for each model that will illustrate this.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Would absolutely love to see these graphs and the measurements for the new Triax.

The only thing holding me up from buying a Triax (besides needing to save a bit more money) is that I really want to see full measurements including THD per frequency. A CEA-2010 test would be perfect.

It's a lot of money for me and I have a big and difficult room to deal with plus some lofty goals/expectations and even though I know you offer a money back guarantee, I don't want to cost myself or you/PSA money and headaches so I need to get it right the first time. smile.gif

I can't wait for you to share all the measurements/data/info you have on the new Triax, along with pics of the drivers/inside of cabinet/bracing, etc, because I'm more than ready to buy and think by adding the Triax to my Empires (only keeping them to keep an even FR unless you think that's a bad idea since the Triax goes so much lower/louder, but if I gain match, since they're both sealed subs, wouldn't that work to keep a smooth FR and just add to what I have??) I'll finally be happy with the bass in my 4500 cu ft room with a concrete floor.

Thanks Tom,

--Jason
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar Tom Vodhanel 07:01 AM 05-30-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

I greatly appreciate the feedback and clarification. I do realize that what can be measured cannot necessarily be heard. I have no clue what the threshold of audibility is with regards to subs.

It's interesting you mention my 16-46PC+. I was commenting to a friend earlier today that it would be nice to know the distortion, frequency response, and output abilities of my sub. That would give me an excellent point of reference. I tried finding that information online, but no luck. Perhaps SVS might have this info in their archives?

Could it be said that different configurations, assuming quality design otherwise, sound a little different from each other and at that point it just comes down to personal preference? Or am I off base here?

Thanks. smile.gif

Goto the shack and look at Ilkka's archived tests. They have the 20-39PC+ in 16hz mode which will give you a good idea of what's what. They also have a nice collection of 2010 CEA data which isn't often referenced although it matches up really well with other tests(like data-bass) for the most part.

If configurations = driver orientation....then different configurations can lead to different FRs at the seats. This is simply due to the acoustical centers of the drivers(or ports,PRs) being in different spots. If the FR changes are significant enough...it will be audible. It might be better, might be worse. Like it is often said....without measurements we're just guessing..smile.gif

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
skdmrklcy's Avatar skdmrklcy 07:31 AM 05-30-2013
I missed FedEx Ground by 10 mins.....

So it is being routed to a local pick up store. I hope to get it tonight with the use my fathers truck! No way this will fit in my little car.

Can't wait!
Saturn94's Avatar Saturn94 07:54 AM 05-30-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Goto the shack and look at Ilkka's archived tests. They have the 20-39PC+ in 16hz mode which will give you a good idea of what's what. They also have a nice collection of 2010 CEA data which isn't often referenced although it matches up really well with other tests(like data-bass) for the most part.

If configurations = driver orientation....then different configurations can lead to different FRs at the seats. This is simply due to the acoustical centers of the drivers(or ports,PRs) being in different spots. If the FR changes are significant enough...it will be audible. It might be better, might be worse. Like it is often said....without measurements we're just guessing..smile.gif

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Thanks. I'll look that up. smile.gif
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar Tom Vodhanel 08:02 AM 05-30-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by jevansoh View Post

Would absolutely love to see these graphs and the measurements for the new Triax.

The only thing holding me up from buying a Triax (besides needing to save a bit more money) is that I really want to see full measurements including THD per frequency. A CEA-2010 test would be perfect.

It's a lot of money for me and I have a big and difficult room to deal with plus some lofty goals/expectations and even though I know you offer a money back guarantee, I don't want to cost myself or you/PSA money and headaches so I need to get it right the first time. smile.gif

I can't wait for you to share all the measurements/data/info you have on the new Triax, along with pics of the drivers/inside of cabinet/bracing, etc, because I'm more than ready to buy and think by adding the Triax to my Empires (only keeping them to keep an even FR unless you think that's a bad idea since the Triax goes so much lower/louder, but if I gain match, since they're both sealed subs, wouldn't that work to keep a smooth FR and just add to what I have??) I'll finally be happy with the bass in my 4500 cu ft room with a concrete floor.

Thanks Tom,

--Jason


We're updating the Triax page a little at a time. We recently added shots of all the wood veneer options here.

http://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/prism/products/triax

We still have the graphs, detailed driver shots, and our CAD blowup among other things.

The biggest issue with the empires is their FR/super steep rolloff <22hz or so. 1)<20hz where you need the most displacement to maintain a given volume level...the empires will abruptly stop contributing much to the cause. 2)there will be some phase shift differences between the empires and the Triax due to this steep filtering on the empire. You may be able to minimize the cancellation effects with careful tweaking of the available phase/time delay controls though.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar Tom Vodhanel 08:11 AM 05-30-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

Thanks. I'll look that up. smile.gif

I should have mentioned, it might be better/worse dependent on the room environment, seating positions, etc. Really nothing to do with one specific configuration being better than others in every possible scenario. This is why we see comments like..."down firing has always worked better in my room" and "front firing always sounds better to me".



Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
basshead81's Avatar basshead81 08:16 AM 05-30-2013
Tom, I was reading on audioholics lastnight. That Dean guy has a real hard on about the new Triax huh? I dont understand why he is so hell bent on proving the Triax amp is not 4000watts rms. Imo who cares about short term, rms is how power has been rated for years in audio, so why change it now? Its almost like a few guys over there dont want the Triax to exist lol...well sorry guys there is a new sherrif in town!
steve nn's Avatar steve nn 08:27 AM 05-30-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Tom, I was reading on audioholics lastnight. That Dean guy has a real hard on about the new Triax huh? I dont understand why he is so hell bent on proving the Triax amp is not 4000watts rms. Imo who cares about short term, rms is how power has been rated for years in audio, so why change it now? Its almost like a few guys over there dont want the Triax to exist lol...well sorry guys there is a new sherrif in town!

+1 Yeah I saw that. confused.gif Nit-pick
Saturn94's Avatar Saturn94 08:40 AM 05-30-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

I should have mentioned, it might be better/worse dependent on the room environment, seating positions, etc. Really nothing to do with one specific configuration being better than others in every possible scenario. This is why we see comments like..."down firing has always worked better in my room" and "front firing always sounds better to me".



Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Ah, so it's really going to depend on my room/setup. Of course that means the only way I'm really going to know what will work best for me is to try them out. Perhaps I need to factor in possible return shipping costs into my budget.

I took a look at that review on the Shack site.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/6006-svs-20-39pc-16-hz-tune-db12-2-a.html

It looks pretty good to my uneducated eye. Any thoughts on it?

Here's another option I have considered at the cheap end of the scale. My 16-46PC+ has the original dB12 driver. I understand the current version, dB12.3, is a couple generations newer and is more resistant to bottoming out, and perhaps it also performs better in other ways? I thought maybe trying the new driver, getting an EQ unit to tame peaks combined with experimenting with placement (I'm currently have no EQ or room correction). Thoughts?

smile.gif
steve nn's Avatar steve nn 08:47 AM 05-30-2013
Quote:
Any thoughts on it?

Ilka forgot to dust the top of the bass-plate smile.gif
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar Tom Vodhanel 08:55 AM 05-30-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

+1 Yeah I saw that. confused.gif Nit-pick

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. I think there's been some great work done over there. Josh Ricci certainly lends a level of credibility to anything he is associated with. If they are *really* worried about amplifier ratings in powered subwoofers they can just send Josh a AP kit and ask him to measure the true output of each amplifier as part of his reviews. Of course, no one would meet the standards imposed on the Triax(ratings should reflect the output of the amp regardless of time limits) and you would be left with testing that ended up with a "pass/fail" rate of 100% fail...the huge advertisers may not like that: rolleyes.gif

In the end, I'd rather just leave that discussion over there, thanks.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Saturn94's Avatar Saturn94 09:01 AM 05-30-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

Ilka forgot to dust the top of the bass-plate smile.gif

LOL! Yeah, I saw that too. Where the heck was he keeping that thing? Mine has never been that dusty in the 10 years I've had it (and I rarely dust under there redface.gif ).
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar Tom Vodhanel 09:03 AM 05-30-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

Ah, so it's really going to depend on my room/setup. Of course that means the only way I'm really going to know what will work best for me is to try them out. Perhaps I need to factor in possible return shipping costs into my budget.

I took a look at that review on the Shack site.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/6006-svs-20-39pc-16-hz-tune-db12-2-a.html

It looks pretty good to my uneducated eye. Any thoughts on it?

Here's another option I have considered at the cheap end of the scale. My 16-46PC+ has the original dB12 driver. I understand the current version, dB12.3, is a couple generations newer and is more resistant to bottoming out, and perhaps it also performs better in other ways? I thought maybe trying the new driver, getting an EQ unit to tame peaks combined with experimenting with placement (I'm currently have no EQ or room correction). Thoughts?

smile.gif


Yeah, overall it looks fine, especially considering it is what a 10 year old design? Here is the CEA stuff

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/5748-cea-2010-standard-compilation.html

You can see the overall 2010-CEA data and compare it to the data on Josh's site.

When you look at the data for the subwoofers that Ilkka and Josh both measured the results are very close.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar Tom Vodhanel 09:04 AM 05-30-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

LOL! Yeah, I saw that too. Where the heck was he keeping that thing? Mine has never been that dusty in the 10 years I've had it (and I rarely dust under there redface.gif ).


In Ilkka's defense I believe almost all/all of the subs he measured where brought to the testing location by their owners on the day they would be measured..smile.gif

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
manonfire's Avatar manonfire 09:07 AM 05-30-2013
Just a question for all, just wondering if most level match or gain match subs. Is there really a big difference in sound. Does one have advantages over the other.
Saturn94's Avatar Saturn94 09:10 AM 05-30-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

In Ilkka's defense I believe almost all/all of the subs he measured where brought to the testing location by their owners on the day they would be measured..smile.gif

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

So does a thick layer of dust help reduce audible harmonic distortion? (hehehehe......just kidding......sorry, I couldnt resist biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif )
Tags: Xs30 , Velodyne Sms 1 In Room Bass Correction Kit With Included Microphone , Denon Avr 3313ci Receiver , Denon Avr 4520ci Receiver , Power Sound Audio , Xv15 , Power Sound Audio Triax , Room Equilizer Wizard Rew , Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver
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