Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 112 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3331 of 31549 Old 06-07-2013, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

A black base against a cherry veneer would be killer.


We tried that here and you are correct. I thought it looked surprisingly good.

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post #3332 of 31549 Old 06-07-2013, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

We tried that here and you are correct. I thought it looked surprisingly good.

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This gives me a vision of a Triax with veneer with say the top and bottom being gloss black. Or each face having a different Finnish gloss or veneer.

Too bad gloss is hard keep clean.

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post #3333 of 31549 Old 06-07-2013, 10:59 AM
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Hi all,

I know we're behind on several website updates....Triax driver pictures, Xv15 and XS30 wood veneer pictures, some graphs, etc. We've had an unusually busy 2-3 weeks for orders/shipments. Fulfilling orders and helping out current customers will always be priority one so I'm afraid the updates have been delayed a bit. We'll try to get to all of them this weekend. Until then here is a low resolution shot of the Triax driver (on left )next to the Power-X 15".






.


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post #3334 of 31549 Old 06-07-2013, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Norcuron View Post

Ordered Triax last night. Can't wait for it to arrive. It will be interesting to see how much different it is from my current SVS that I have had for years. Spoke with Tom a couple months ago and decided to wait till this bad boy was ready to go.


Oh I think it will be a *little* bit different..smile.gif

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post #3335 of 31549 Old 06-07-2013, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by richard11 View Post

Interesting. Well, I guess it's not gonna happen then.... Maybe swap the drivers only for a slight increase in sound quality for a slight increase in cost? I'm looking at the Submersive and just wish there was a direct competitor. Of course, maybe the XS30 is already there, but I don't know of any direct comparisons yet.

The Triax drivers are optimized for a very narrow operational environment. Their manufacturing cost is roughly 3x the Power-X 15" woofer. Plugging two of these into the XS30 would raise pricing significantly with very little benefit because the majority of their potential benefits would be capped by the amp power in the XS30. I wouldn't consider the XS30 a direct competitor to the SubM....that is an outstanding design and there's nothing out there at half the price that will give you the same output/extension/SQ imo.

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post #3336 of 31549 Old 06-07-2013, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

I was also thinking the 2400 watt amp in the submsersive is also not that much cheaper than the 4000watt version in the Triax so there might be the issue of them be so close together that there would no reason to make two models so close together.

I just hope the Triax doesn't end up being super limited run like the B4Plus and the SS ultra Cylinders going away before they had much of a chance.

Those are some of the rarest of old SVS subs. In a lot of ways the Triax reminds me of the B4plus mostly the driver lay out. But even cooler was the B4 was a statement sub before the conquest, the captivator the Submersive , the funk audio 18.x subs. Only crazy output stuff was from Tom Danley and that wall custom.

Its nice to see Tom and Jim get back into the crazy high output subwoofer market.

The biggest issue with some of the older subs you mention is they were passive designs. Therefore you are limiting the potential user base by about 95% in my experience. A secondary issue with passive subwoofers is the small percentage that prefers this arrangement (separate amp) often plans on using some amp/ amp channel that really isn't going to work very well with the subwoofer Amp fails, and now they claim its the subwoofers fault and demand you pay for the repairs on some out of date amp....been there, went through that( a long time ago). Then there's the issue of setting filters, limiters, etc. I will sleep much better knowing Jim is doing all the DSP stuff on all of our amplifiers right here in Ohio. Jim and I actually built one powered B4+ proto-type way back when and it did quite well. It is still sitting in a corner of my home.

Anyway, I don't see the Triax having a limited "shelf life". In fact, I'd expect this model to be around for a very long time.

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post #3337 of 31549 Old 06-07-2013, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by its phillip View Post

From what I've read, Audyssey is usually not all that great at picking crossover points for speakers.
Audyssey doesn't pick anything,the implementation carried out by the given hardware mfr. You might wanna read the official thread.
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post #3338 of 31549 Old 06-07-2013, 02:57 PM
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The Triax drivers are optimized for a very narrow operational environment. Their manufacturing cost is roughly 3x the Power-X 15" woofer. Plugging two of these into the XS30 would raise pricing significantly with very little benefit because the majority of their potential benefits would be capped by the amp power in the XS30. I wouldn't consider the XS30 a direct competitor to the SubM....that is an outstanding design and there's nothing out there at half the price that will give you the same output/extension/SQ imo.

Tom V.
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Tom, thanks for the reply. I'm sure you guys went through all the permutations. I guess for me, Triax is out of my budget (since I want two locations), but those drivers look so good! =)

What about those first PSA speakers??
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post #3339 of 31549 Old 06-07-2013, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

The biggest issue with some of the older subs you mention is they were passive designs. Therefore you are limiting the potential user base by about 95% in my experience. A secondary issue with passive subwoofers is the small percentage that prefers this arrangement (separate amp) often plans on using some amp/ amp channel that really isn't going to work very well with the subwoofer Amp fails, and now they claim its the subwoofers fault and demand you pay for the repairs on some out of date amp....been there, went through that( a long time ago). Then there's the issue of setting filters, limiters, etc. I will sleep much better knowing Jim is doing all the DSP stuff on all of our amplifiers right here in Ohio. Jim and I actually built one powered B4+ proto-type way back when and it did quite well. It is still sitting in a corner of my home.

Anyway, I don't see the Triax having a limited "shelf life". In fact, I'd expect this model to be around for a very long time.

Tom V.
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I would bet you have lots of cool one off's and prototypes sitting around!

JTR (3 215 RT, 5 212HTR, 2 Growlers, 4 S2's)
PSA (4 Triax's, 3 210T's)
Behringer (4 B1200 Midbass Modules)
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post #3340 of 31549 Old 06-07-2013, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Hi all,

I know we're behind on several website updates....Triax driver pictures, Xv15 and XS30 wood veneer pictures, some graphs, etc. We've had an unusually busy 2-3 weeks for orders/shipments. Fulfilling orders and helping out current customers will always be priority one so I'm afraid the updates have been delayed a bit. We'll try to get to all of them this weekend. Until then here is a low resolution shot of the Triax driver (on left )next to the Power-X 15".



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post #3341 of 31549 Old 06-08-2013, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by thehun View Post

Audyssey doesn't pick anything,the implementation carried out by the given hardware mfr.

That is correct. Audyssey finds the response of each speaker and sends this information to the AVR processor. Each AVR manufacturer then chooses how they want to use that information in auto-setting the crossover points. This is just a guess but it appears that some/most/all(?) of the AVRs will automatically set the speaker to the deepest extension measured irregardless of other variables. In other words, you have main speakers that extend to 40hz(in the Audy ping)...the receiver is going to give them a 40hz crossover. This is a problem because in most systems/rooms with a high quality subwoofer...it will almost always work best to have the subwoofer handling everything <80hz.

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post #3342 of 31549 Old 06-08-2013, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by richard11 View Post

Tom, thanks for the reply. I'm sure you guys went through all the permutations. I guess for me, Triax is out of my budget (since I want two locations), but those drivers look so good! =)

What about those first PSA speakers??

Just curious, if you are looking for something like the XS30, but you want duals.....what has you ruling the XS30s out right now?

I think we'll focus on the website with all of the new information we have(Triax, XV15 wood veneer, XS30 wood veneer, etc) and all of the logistics involved with the Triax trade-ups for the next couple weeks. We'll try to give everyone a "heads up" when we get closer.

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post #3343 of 31549 Old 06-08-2013, 11:15 AM
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Just curious, if you are looking for something like the XS30, but you want duals.....what has you ruling the XS30s out right now?

I think we'll focus on the website with all of the new information we have(Triax, XV15 wood veneer, XS30 wood veneer, etc) and all of the logistics involved with the Triax trade-ups for the next couple weeks. We'll try to give everyone a "heads up" when we get closer.

Tom V.
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Hi Tom,

I may very well end up with dual XS30. For my room, I'm going to place subs front center and rear center. At the rear location, space is premium. So a dual-opposed package is nice because you get a lot of woofage with slim depth. I want to go total overkill so there's no dynamic compression (even with all speakers at 80Hz and reference level). Four XS30 is not really an option because I can't stack them up front.

Someone said a few pages back they asked you about a Triax version of the XS30, and you said it would only be 1dB louder. If so, that's a tough sell, but maybe if the bass quality was audibly better there would be a market? Not sure where you would need to price it though. I guess I'm just looking for SubM performance for about $1800. biggrin.gif Can you talk about the qualitative differences between Triax and Power-X woofers when playing within Power-X limits?

Can you reveal anything about the speakers at all? wink.gif

Thanks!
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post #3344 of 31549 Old 06-08-2013, 11:25 AM
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Tom, please make my Triax's this weekend and ship them Monday please!!! I cannot wait any longer! tongue.gifsmile.giffrown.gif
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post #3345 of 31549 Old 06-08-2013, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by richard11 View Post

Hi Tom,

I may very well end up with dual XS30. For my room, I'm going to place subs front center and rear center. At the rear location, space is premium. So a dual-opposed package is nice because you get a lot of woofage with slim depth. I want to go total overkill so there's no dynamic compression (even with all speakers at 80Hz and reference level). Four XS30 is not really an option because I can't stack them up front.

Someone said a few pages back they asked you about a Triax version of the XS30, and you said it would only be 1dB louder. If so, that's a tough sell, but maybe if the bass quality was audibly better there would be a market? Not sure where you would need to price it though. I guess I'm just looking for SubM performance for about $1800. biggrin.gif Can you talk about the qualitative differences between Triax and Power-X woofers when playing within Power-X limits?

Can you reveal anything about the speakers at all? wink.gif

Thanks!

Hi Richard,

How large is the room? Are there any large openings to other areas of the home? Also, on average, what would you say the distance will be from each subwoofer to the seats?

Triax drivers in the XS30 won't be any closer to the subm than XS30 drivers in the XS30. There's no real benefit. In fact I bet if both versions were in the room for you to A/B you would prefer the standard XS30 with the majority of source material. The Triax drivers are optimized for a very specific working environment and the XS30 ain't it..smile.gif


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post #3346 of 31549 Old 06-08-2013, 12:52 PM
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Fascinating. Thank you very much for the responses.

We exchanged some emails a few months back. Continuing here for everyone's benefit.

The room is 22' x 15' x 9' (3000 cu ft) Sealed. One window, one set of double doors. 2nd floor, standard construction.

Two rows of seating. Distance to main listening position on the front row...

Front sub: ~13 ft.
Rear sub: ~ 9 ft.

Am I being crazy thinking I need something more than dual XS30? I was even thinking about dual JBL 4645C with pro amp to really have limitless mid-bass slam (giving up the <25 Hz).

Thanks!
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Originally Posted by richard11 View Post

Fascinating. Thank you very much for the responses.

We exchanged some emails a few months back. Continuing here for everyone's benefit.

The room is 22' x 15' x 9' (3000 cu ft) Sealed. One window, one set of double doors. 2nd floor, standard construction.

Two rows of seating. Distance to main listening position on the front row...

Front sub: ~13 ft.
Rear sub: ~ 9 ft.

Am I being crazy thinking I need something more than dual XS30? I was even thinking about dual JBL 4645C with pro amp to really have limitless mid-bass slam (giving up the <25 Hz).

Thanks!

My theatre room is about 2100cubic/ft that has a 6ft opening into about another 800cubic/ft area. Dual XS30's have absolutely no trouble pressurizing my theatre room, and I'd be pretty confident you wouldn't have any trouble with your sealed 3000cubic/ft room either.
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post #3348 of 31549 Old 06-08-2013, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by richard11 View Post

Fascinating. Thank you very much for the responses.

We exchanged some emails a few months back. Continuing here for everyone's benefit.

The room is 22' x 15' x 9' (3000 cu ft) Sealed. One window, one set of double doors. 2nd floor, standard construction.

Two rows of seating. Distance to main listening position on the front row...

Front sub: ~13 ft.
Rear sub: ~ 9 ft.

Am I being crazy thinking I need something more than dual XS30? I was even thinking about dual JBL 4645C with pro amp to really have limitless mid-bass slam (giving up the <25 Hz).

Thanks!

One on hand, I like the idea of maximizing performance in the bandwidth that includes the majority of the effects(25-100hz). On the OTHER hand, I wouldn't go overboard in that direction. Meaning, don't give up extension for extra headroom you may never use. With all speakers set to small, look for maybe 118dBish of headroom needed from the subwoofer(s) at reference level. This assumes you will have the bass channel calibrated to the same level as the full range channel. If you prefer the bass a little *hot* factor that in as well. (sum the difference to the 118 number). For example, you like the bass 3dB hot....let's call it 121dB minimum for uncompressed bass. Many would argue for 124dB as they prefer to always have 3dB of extra dynamic range.

Another thing to keep in mind----in the 35-100hz range the XS30 and jbl 4645c have similar output capabilities. In the 25-35hz range the JBL has the edge(port). But under 25hz the XS30 takes over.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=68&mset=73

Dual XS30s about 4m to the seats in your room. With 3000 cu-ft sealed, I'd expect extension down to the 9-12hz range. Output will vary with frequency of course. In the mid and upper bass range(say 30-100hz) you have targeted as the #! priority....I'd look for 124-130dB at the seats. In the deeper bass (10-30hz) the maximum output will gradually drop. When room gain becomes a dominating factor to consider estimates are always tougher. I'd look for 112-121dB in the 12-25hz octave though.


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post #3349 of 31549 Old 06-08-2013, 02:05 PM
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Always thoughtful and thorough. Thanks again Tom.
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I hope Ricci gets a chance to measure and review an XS30. Would be nice to have that data to compare with other available systems. PSA is definitely on my radar for my next sub.

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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

The Triax drivers are optimized for a very specific working environment

Tom, what kind of "very specific working environment" are the Triax drivers for?
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post #3352 of 31549 Old 06-09-2013, 06:49 AM
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Haven't been here in awhile and just noticed that the XV15's are now being sold without the base-plate. Any difference with or without it and are these 'newer' XV15's being made with newer/upgraded insides from the previous models?

Sorry I missed this question,

There is a *slight* potential advantage to the newer design if the woofer is firing into carpet. If the subwoofer is pushed to extremes it can produce upper frequency harmonics(distortion). A portion of these harmonics will be absorbed by carpet/padding. I wouldn't expect a big audible difference between the two models(base versus no base) though. For this to make a big difference the subwoofer in question would need to produce large amounts of distortion. The Power-X product line tends to keep distortion artifacts very low---even as they approach their absolute output limits.

There were no other changes to the product line. The amplifier, 15" drivers, even the actual enclosures, are all identical between the "base" and "no base" versions.

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post #3353 of 31549 Old 06-09-2013, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by jchong View Post

Tom, what kind of "very specific working environment" are the Triax drivers for?

The Triax enclosure and amplifier combination..smile.gif

I may have been less than clear using the phrase "working environment" as that may be interpreted as the room environment.

What I was referencing is the internal (enclosure) conditions including the available amplifier capabilities.

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post #3354 of 31549 Old 06-09-2013, 04:38 PM - Thread Starter
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That tripped me out Steve, I thought I was getting a graphical glitch. eek.gifbiggrin.gif

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post #3355 of 31549 Old 06-09-2013, 04:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NWCgrad View Post

I hope Ricci gets a chance to measure and review an XS30. Would be nice to have that data to compare with other available systems. PSA is definitely on my radar for my next sub.

I'm actually more interested in a Triax review , in part because I'm having a hard time fathoming that kind of output and ability the sub woofer has. That and it would bring good press (not that its needed) to PSA.

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post #3356 of 31549 Old 06-10-2013, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Sorry I missed this question,

There is a *slight* potential advantage to the newer design if the woofer is firing into carpet. If the subwoofer is pushed to extremes it can produce upper frequency harmonics(distortion). A portion of these harmonics will be absorbed by carpet/padding. I wouldn't expect a big audible difference between the two models(base versus no base) though. For this to make a big difference the subwoofer in question would need to produce large amounts of distortion. The Power-X product line tends to keep distortion artifacts very low---even as they approach their absolute output limits.

There were no other changes to the product line. The amplifier, 15" drivers, even the actual enclosures, are all identical between the "base" and "no base" versions.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Thanks for your feedback Tom! Much appreciated!

In case for some reason I decide to get the base plate, is there a particular area in your website where I can pick it? I tried looking and couldn't find it. Thanks!

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post #3357 of 31549 Old 06-10-2013, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

I'm actually more interested in a Triax review , in part because I'm having a hard time fathoming that kind of output and ability the sub woofer has. That and it would bring good press (not that its needed) to PSA.


The 2010-CEA data we posted? I thought we sand-bagged a bit too..smile.gif

Also, I'm almost sure the data we posted on the website has been scaled using Josh Ricci's triple woof compensation file but I'll have to double check on that. Josh has been known to email me and remind me about that stuff. (he had to remind us for some of the xs30 data for example).

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/paradigm-sig-sub-2-1/Hsub2compensation.jpg/image_view_fullscreen

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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post #3358 of 31549 Old 06-10-2013, 09:28 AM
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Thanks for your feedback Tom! Much appreciated!

In case for some reason I decide to get the base plate, is there a particular area in your website where I can pick it? I tried looking and couldn't find it. Thanks!

At the moment we would rather specific requests for base versions to be manually processed. So please email me at support@powersoundaudio.com whenever you are ready to order and we'll handle it from there. Thanks.

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Power Sound Audio
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post #3359 of 31549 Old 06-10-2013, 06:27 PM
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Scooped up the XS-30 for $999 and just made today's freight shipment - estimated delivery date is 6/13. Can't wait to join the club.

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Scooped up the XS-30 for $999 and just made today's freight shipment - estimated delivery date is 6/13. Can't wait to join the club.

Congrats and welcome to the club!
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