Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1168 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #35011 of 37584 Old 07-18-2017, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by lefthandluke View Post
first off, yes, I own two PSA subs. but I just took a look at data-bass site and I see NO info listed on Seaton subs, which, for years have been considered one of the top contenders in the marketplace...and rightfully so. Mark Seatons knowledge and integrity are beyond reproach, and I don't see any of the badgering that Tom V is subjected to...nor would I hope to. would I like to see numbers posted by both companies? sure! but fer cryin out loud, the man said he will do it...lighten up already.
At least I have idea how Seaton performs....just look at DIY Dayton....same for Deep Sea Sounds just look for DIY stereo integrity.....so at least we know the drivers and specs. Same with funk using TSAD and TC sounds drivers. So this is why the companies don't send out to databass since the drivers are already tested. Just the companies make it sound better than DIY with high end amp and dsp tuning but the output should be similar.

But with PSA we don't know anything about the driver itself or the specs of the driver or where it comes from. This is why its being brought up to be tested.

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post #35012 of 37584 Old 07-18-2017, 07:56 PM
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PLEASE... the other 99.9% of us in this thread get it.... move along. PLEASE.

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post #35013 of 37584 Old 07-18-2017, 08:01 PM
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I agree that the topic of data-bass testing should be put to rest. My testing numbers are close enough to PSA's numbers that I have no reason to doubt any of PSA numbers. PSA seems open to reviews by Brent Butterworth and @JimWilson which I feel are of more value.

Mike sums up things for me up nicely!

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Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
I think people feel more confident in their future purchases when they can log onto PSA's website and look at the product comparison chart. They like to see output numbers and how it compares to other PSA products and that puts them at ease and usually is the final factor if they should upgrade or determine what sub fits their needs. I understand from a consumers point of view but I also understand if Tom and Jim are understaffed and I'm not sure if they make the changes or if they out source their IT needs. I'm sure at the end of a 12-15 hour work day they rather get home to their families than upgrade the website. Give them time and I'm sure it will be updated shortly.
I brought up the subject of updating the PSA website 3 months ago. Tom said its not his responsibility, but someone built a page for the S7201. Someone is able to post products in the outlet. It can't be that difficult to post frequency response & compression sweeps and CEA-2010 measurements for the 01 products.
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post #35014 of 37584 Old 07-18-2017, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Timokreon View Post
PLEASE... the other 99.9% of us in this thread get it.... move along. PLEASE.

A friendly reminder for everyone, again... the IGNORE button is a wonderful tool. Click on the members name, view public profile, left click "users list" "add to ignore list".
Thanks for the tip. All calls to voicemail. 😎
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post #35015 of 37584 Old 07-18-2017, 08:07 PM
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Perhaps you should volunteer to change the web site and post the numbers? I'm sure Tom and Jim would appreciate having 1 less thing to do of the thousands of things they have to do on a daily basis. Since it can't be that difficult to post.
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post #35016 of 37584 Old 07-18-2017, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
The way I see it is this way....what if I'm looking for sealed sub to outperform my dual svs pb13s? How do I know which brand or model to get without seeing measurements? What if my dual pb13s outperform the S7201?
As a former owner of two SVS PB13 Ultras, I wouldn't be concerned with the latest offerings from PSA not besting the SVS PB13's. I demoed two s3000i, and they outperformed the PB13's. The PSA 18" offerings will undoubtedly hand them their butt all day long. The JTR S2 shouldn't even be used in the same sentence with the PB13 Ultra, they just aren't in the same league. I would also be confident in saying the s7201 should also not be used in the same sentence as the PB13 Ultra. The Ultra was a powerhouse back in the 2008'ish time frame when I bought mine. But even then, Epik and Elemental Designs were putting out some powerhouses that the Ultra couldn't handle. Fast forward today when 18's are the norm and the PB13 just doesn't stand much of a chance. Big fan of the PB13, dont get me wrong (loved them for years), but if you are thinking of upgrading, do so in confidence. Benchmark drag racing will drive you insane and really doesn't prove a whole lot in my opinion. Find a company you trust and go with their powerhouse platform and don't look back. For complete transparency, I am not a PSA or JTR owner. I own (2) 24" DSS subs and (2) dual 18 DIY subs with SI drivers. With that said, I would drop an S2 or S7201 in place of my DIY subs everyday of the week and twice on Sunday if my wife would let me

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post #35017 of 37584 Old 07-18-2017, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by azgypsyman3 View Post
I am not looking for just another 15" or 18" product, I am a niche customer who wants something that pushes the present boundaries and succeeds!
I am waiting for someone to pull the trigger on two or more of these. "The Thing" aka S7201 needs some support from another "Thing" or other sealed subs to deal with room modes. Do you dare to be "The One"?
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post #35018 of 37584 Old 07-18-2017, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Timokreon View Post
Perhaps you should volunteer to change the web site and post the numbers? I'm sure Tom and Jim would appreciate having 1 less thing to do of the thousands of things they have to do on a daily basis. Since it can't be that difficult to post.
I have volunteered. They know how to get in touch with me.
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post #35019 of 37584 Old 07-18-2017, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I am waiting for someone to pull the trigger on two or more of these. "The Thing" aka S7201 needs some support from another "Thing" or other sealed subs to deal with room modes. Do you dare to be "The One"?


I thought someone mentioned pairing them with their current T-18's, but I forget who it was. I am not sure if they were serious, but I like to think they were.


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post #35020 of 37584 Old 07-18-2017, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
I thought someone mentioned pairing them with their current T-18's, but I forget who it was. I am not sure if they were serious, but I like to think they were.
That would be @Alan P . He currently has dual T18s and dual S3000s. It wouldn't surprise me if he added a pair of THINGS. Are you already making plans Alan? I'm pretty sure @newc33 is going to get a pair, but when?

My only worry is folks trading in multiples for a single THING. Some rooms are difficult to tame with just a single sub and the 36" depth brings its own placement challenges.
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post #35021 of 37584 Old 07-18-2017, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
At least I have idea how Seaton performs....just look at DIY Dayton....same for Deep Sea Sounds just look for DIY stereo integrity.....so at least we know the drivers and specs. Same with funk using TSAD and TC sounds drivers. So this is why the companies don't send out to databass since the drivers are already tested. Just the companies make it sound better than DIY with high end amp and dsp tuning but the output should be similar.

But with PSA we don't know anything about the driver itself or the specs of the driver or where it comes from. This is why its being brought up to be tested.
If they want to provide the information they will, if not they won't. You've had your say, it's time for you to move on.

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post #35022 of 37584 Old 07-18-2017, 08:35 PM
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Perhaps you should volunteer to change the web site and post the numbers? I'm sure Tom and Jim would appreciate having 1 less thing to do of the thousands of things they have to do on a daily basis. Since it can't be that difficult to post.
Yeah, thats what we want...lets just hand out back door access to our website/shopping cart to anyone who complains the loudest about our decisions lol.. (I know you are just joking)

Since certain individuals have such strong opinions on everything we're doing wrong it would seem a perfect opportunity for them to start their own ID company and show everyone their astounding business sense? Reminds me of this quote.


***It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.***

Nah. Why bother when you can just critic everyone else on a daily basis?

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post #35023 of 37584 Old 07-18-2017, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
Literally night and day difference.....you will see. LOL Just make sure each sub is calibrated the same spl level from your MLP (your further subs should be working harder than nearfield sub).

I actually found the opposite and Sburger has said he found the same. I run my NF louder and turn the FF down or it sounded bloaty/boomy. We both posted FR using REW of our subs in the MBM thread. Nearfield Ported MBM for Increased Mid-Bass Tactile Response http://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...5&d=1499896697

What are you running for your NF and FF subs? I am not saying running the NF louder is the way to go just that it can work better in some cases. Takes a lot of trial and error to make it work but I think you get the most "impact" the hotter you can run your NF without it being localizable. And I found I had to turn the FF down to do that. Your mileage may vary

Edit: after rereading what you wrote I guess it is a case of semantics. I guess the FF might be "working harder". I was referring to from the MLP the NF will be louder if you took a measurement so in that case, the FF still may be working harder as in if you took near field measurements of each FF and NF But I think most would interpret that to meaning it as the FF should be playing louder at the MLP which I have not found to be true. But like I said your mileage may vary.

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post #35024 of 37584 Old 07-18-2017, 08:38 PM
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Hey Marc, I could put the three 1801s behind my couch and the 7201 up front, frontal and rear assault. I wonder what the return policy will be for this sub?
Jeffrey, if you pull the trigger on this I will fly out to "help" you dial everything in! No lie!
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post #35025 of 37584 Old 07-18-2017, 08:43 PM
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I thought someone mentioned pairing them with their current T-18's, but I forget who it was. I am not sure if they were serious, but I like to think they were.


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We actually have 2 or 3 current T18ht customers that I'm working on trade in credit toward the 7201. And 2 different Triax guys too. So eventually we may see a few of each in the outlet.. I'm not sure if any of the current preorder guys are pairing them with T-18s though. None I can think of off the top of my head anyway.

Funny story about the T-18ht. When we announced it we didn't even have a webpage. Not a single graph. And we sold more of them in the first 30 days than we sold Triax in the entire year previously.

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post #35026 of 37584 Old 07-18-2017, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

***It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.***
I love this quote. Congrats to your success sir. While others in the ring may have different approaches, your in the arena, fighting, and doing well. That is commendable in and of itself.

Hats off to all who brave any arena.
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post #35027 of 37584 Old 07-18-2017, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
There's so many that go in/out of the office. Big neo18(4 inch p-p?) with two big passive rads and maybe 2800 watts or so right now. The idea is to get V3601 performance from something V1801(or smaller) size. I got it to the "sounds amazing with music and movies" stage. But the last time we took it outside for some "max" stuff... it blew apart. So we still have some work to do. Like with all design ideas...might not see production. I just need something to keep me occupied with all my free time..

I should have added, the PRs are only inverted so I can adjust there mass easier. If it ever got to production they would be mounted in the conventional manner.
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If you can pull this design off it could change living rooms forever! I know you are tired of my opinions, but this idea is worth following through to production IMHO.

In regards to THE THING/S7201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
See post 34944.

With box design there's a couple of cool things you can try to do with specific regards to driver mounting.

1) Force cancelling. This has the drivers mounted in such a manner that the moving mass of one driver cancels the next. Our S3000i(and S3601)are two examples. The benefit is you greatly reduce any cabinet vibrations and any negative impact that can have on the system performance.

2) Minimizing the distortions caused by driver(motor) non linearity. This only occurs if you have one driver's cone moving "in" toward the motor(magnets) and the next moving away.

There's a lot of design examples that use one or the other of the above, not so many that use both.

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Can you speak a bit more to item 2) Minimizing the distortions caused by driver(motor) non linearity.?

I'm curious if there is an audible increase in SQ as levels rise vs pairs of S3000/3600/3601s. As levels rise with the S3000 i have observed that the rise in harmonic distortion actually makes some movie effects bigger & more bombastic. However, overall I find lower distortion better and makes for better detail at higher volumes. Tron Legacy is my favorite demo flick for comparing subs (I recommended this to @imureh for his comparison of Seaton Submersive HP vs JTR Captivator 1400) as it has a constant Daft Punk soundtrack, combined with sound effects. I also find this movie good for adjusting ROOM SIZE/LF ADJUST.
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post #35028 of 37584 Old 07-18-2017, 09:10 PM
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If you can pull this design off it could change living rooms forever! I know you are tired of my opinions, but this idea is worth following through to production IMHO.
I assume you mean this would be a game changer because the box would remain small, but behave like a ported sub with no chuffing?

Just know though that TR would be similar to a sealed design. PVL levels are only elevated with some sort of vent/port/horn.
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post #35029 of 37584 Old 07-18-2017, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
If you can pull this design off it could change living rooms forever! I know you are tired of my opinions, but this idea is worth following through to production IMHO.

In regards to THE THING/S7201

Can you speak a bit more to item 2) Minimizing the distortions caused by driver(motor) non linearity.?

I'm curious if there is an audible increase in SQ as levels rise vs pairs of S3000/3600/3601s. As levels rise with the S3000 i have observed that the rise in harmonic distortion actually makes some movie effects bigger & more bombastic. However, overall I find lower distortion better and makes for better detail at higher volumes. Tron Legacy is my favorite demo flick for comparing subs (I recommended this to @imureh for his comparison of Seaton Submersive HP vs JTR Captivator 1400) as it has a constant Daft Punk soundtrack, combined with sound effects. I also find this movie good for adjusting ROOM SIZE/LF ADJUST.
I have been reading up on the push-pull design and 1 of the benefits is lower THD. I bet as soon as these are in the field we will be reading reviews of not only tremendous output but how extremely clean it sounds. Well done Tom and Jim!!!!!!!
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post #35030 of 37584 Old 07-18-2017, 09:13 PM
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Right now i have the S1800 dialed in pretty good.
But my Room Size is set to Large and Gain at half way in a 1700ft^3 room.
I may try to set Room Size to Small and max the Gain.
Is anyone running with full gain?
Any advantages to the two different setups?
I really should leave it the way it is but i have the itch to tinker some more.

TIA
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post #35031 of 37584 Old 07-18-2017, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
If you can pull this design off it could change living rooms forever! I know you are tired of my opinions, but this idea is worth following through to production IMHO.

In regards to THE THING/S7201

Can you speak a bit more to item 2) Minimizing the distortions caused by driver(motor) non linearity.?

I'm curious if there is an audible increase in SQ as levels rise vs pairs of S3000/3600/3601s. As levels rise with the S3000 i have observed that the rise in harmonic distortion actually makes some movie effects bigger & more bombastic. However, overall I find lower distortion better and makes for better detail at higher volumes. Tron Legacy is my favorite demo flick for comparing subs (I recommended this to @imureh for his comparison of Seaton Submersive HP vs JTR Captivator 1400) as it has a constant Daft Punk soundtrack, combined with sound effects. I also find this movie good for adjusting ROOM SIZE/LF ADJUST.
From what I remember Marc, Tron is a great movie for bass... But I also remember it was also terribly clipped from memory. Same with Interstellar. In saying that they both rocked my room with my 4 x Submersives lol.

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post #35032 of 37584 Old 07-18-2017, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by HtLurker View Post
Right now i have the S1800 dialed in pretty good.
But my Room Size is set to Large and Gain at half way in a 1700ft^3 room.
I may try to set Room Size to Small and max the Gain.
Is anyone running with full gain?
Any advantages to the two different setups?
I really should leave it the way it is but i have the itch to tinker some more.

TIA
Do not set the Gain to max. You want to stay between 75-82dbs when initially running any room correction software.
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post #35033 of 37584 Old 07-18-2017, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
As a former owner of two SVS PB13 Ultras, I wouldn't be concerned with the latest offerings from PSA not besting the SVS PB13's. I demoed two s3000i, and they outperformed the PB13's. The PSA 18" offerings will undoubtedly hand them their butt all day long. The JTR S2 shouldn't even be used in the same sentence with the PB13 Ultra, they just aren't in the same league. I would also be confident in saying the s7201 should also not be used in the same sentence as the PB13 Ultra. The Ultra was a powerhouse back in the 2008'ish time frame when I bought mine. But even then, Epik and Elemental Designs were putting out some powerhouses that the Ultra couldn't handle. Fast forward today when 18's are the norm and the PB13 just doesn't stand much of a chance. Big fan of the PB13, dont get me wrong (loved them for years), but if you are thinking of upgrading, do so in confidence. Benchmark drag racing will drive you insane and really doesn't prove a whole lot in my opinion. Find a company you trust and go with their powerhouse platform and don't look back. For complete transparency, I am not a PSA or JTR owner. I own (2) 24" DSS subs and (2) dual 18 DIY subs with SI drivers. With that said, I would drop an S2 or S7201 in place of my DIY subs everyday of the week and twice on Sunday if my wife would let me

Chris
Oh I'm sure the PSA or other ID brand 18 inch offerings are louder and better than my pb13s. What I was trying to say is how can I compare PSA's offerings to other brands without any data to see which product is best for my money? For example....lets just assume I want the best sealed sub.....how can I decide between JTR S2 vs S7201 if there is no data for S7201. Cause its possible that the S2 is cheaper and ALSO same time has better specs.....meaning I get better sub for my money. But I guess without any data I have no idea how much of an upgrade/output I am getting since I don't have anything to compare it to. It wasn't about if PSA's subs is better than my pb13....its more of how does it compare with other brands. I guess its like buying a car.....you want a car that post their 0-60, gas mileage, price/etc and compare to other models. But if you already are brand loyal then I can see why you would just upgrade to newer same brand regardless of data or not. Not dissing PSA subs at all since I've never owned one.....just wanted to see the specs. But I'm letting this go to rest, I've already said my opinion.....doesn't make PSA a bad product at all.

And I'm jealous of your DSS 24s....those got to be really sweet bass. And I'm already eyeing DSS 18s as one of my top 3 options.

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post #35034 of 37584 Old 07-18-2017, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
Do not set the Gain to max. You want to stay between 75-82dbs when initially running any room correction software.
Thanks for the tip.
Anthem ARC software is cutting -4db after calibration.
So i should increase the Room Size setting first before increasing the Gain?
Since Room Size is already Large, maybe i will dial back the Gain a little.
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post #35035 of 37584 Old 07-18-2017, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HtLurker View Post
Thanks for the tip.
Anthem ARC software is cutting -4db after calibration.
So i should increase the Room Size setting first before increasing the Gain?
Since Room Size is already Large, maybe i will dial back the Gain a little.
I would bump up the gain a little, to get around -8db after calibration.
I would also center the room size before calibration, this will allow for adjustment either way after you are done to tune to taste.
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post #35036 of 37584 Old 07-18-2017, 10:02 PM
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Alright while I'm hitting the weights and I'm thinking we all lost are F-ing minds. We are junkies looking for a new high and PSA is our dealer. Tom and Jim should have beepers. We are all scrambling to find a way to get a S7201, we are measuring, working out trades, putting our kids on E-bay ( come on, I'm not the only one!!!!!!). Tom posted about Triax and T18's coming in on trades and I'm looking at specs and placement spots and you know what???? I F-ing love it and this hobby!!! Goodnight all!!!!

Equipment List: Benq W6000, Darbee DVP-5000S Video Processor, JKP Affinity 100 inch 16x9 .9 gain reference screen, Marantz SR7009 Receiver, 3-Marantz Ma700 and 2-Ma6100 mono blocks, 9.2 set-up, B&W Nautilus 805 front speakers, B&W Nautilus HTM2 center speaker, Infinity ( soon to be replaced by B&W ) bookshelf Atmos Speakers, Mirage HDT-R side speakers, Jamo THX surround one rear speakers, PSA S3600I & S3000I subs, Richard Grey, Monster Power, and Panamax powerline conditioning/surge protection.

Last edited by Mike Butny; 07-19-2017 at 10:09 AM.
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post #35037 of 37584 Old 07-18-2017, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ceh383 View Post
I would bump up the gain a little, to get around -8db after calibration.
I would also center the room size before calibration, this will allow for adjustment either way after you are done to tune to taste.
I wouldn't touch the sub Gain on the sub itself after calibration. I would increase the sub trim in the receiver.

Equipment List: Benq W6000, Darbee DVP-5000S Video Processor, JKP Affinity 100 inch 16x9 .9 gain reference screen, Marantz SR7009 Receiver, 3-Marantz Ma700 and 2-Ma6100 mono blocks, 9.2 set-up, B&W Nautilus 805 front speakers, B&W Nautilus HTM2 center speaker, Infinity ( soon to be replaced by B&W ) bookshelf Atmos Speakers, Mirage HDT-R side speakers, Jamo THX surround one rear speakers, PSA S3600I & S3000I subs, Richard Grey, Monster Power, and Panamax powerline conditioning/surge protection.
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post #35038 of 37584 Old 07-18-2017, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
I assume you mean this would be a game changer because the box would remain small, but behave like a ported sub with no chuffing?
Exactamundo!
Quote:
Just know though that TR would be similar to a sealed design. PVL levels are only elevated with some sort of vent/port/horn.
Sealed subs can still provide good TR, especially when used as a side table which is what I'm thinking.
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post #35039 of 37584 Old 07-18-2017, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by HtLurker View Post
Right now Is anyone running with full gain?
No, nobody!

PSA's gain structure is pretty sensitive. It is not a volume knob and will not increase the max levels of the sub.
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post #35040 of 37584 Old 07-18-2017, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by buddhamus View Post
From what I remember Marc, Tron is a great movie for bass... But I also remember it was also terribly clipped from memory. Same with Interstellar. In saying that they both rocked my room with my 4 x Submersives lol.

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Really? Are you sure? How pervasive? Those are exactly my two favorite movies for comparing sealed vs ported! Please don't tell me Mad Max Fury Road has problems too.
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