Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1183 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #35461 of 35942 Old 07-29-2017, 11:42 AM
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^^^

FWIW, I think that it's a common misconception that Audyssey sets bass (meaning sub) levels too low. I believe it is actually doing just what it needs to be doing. There is a much more detailed discussion of this issue in the subwoofer guide, linked below, but this is a synopsis. First, Audyssey's task is to set all channels, including the .1 (LFE) channel to play at the same volume at the MLP. It does that by employing a 75db test tone. And, although there can be some variance in the accuracy of the Audyssey mics, they will typically be accurate with respect to the equivalent volume of all of the channels. So, all of the channels might be set a decibel higher or lower than 75db, but there wouldn't be a wide variance between the regular channels and the .1 channel.

Second, once all of the channels have been set equally with that 75db test tone, the AVR will automatically reconfigure the regular channels to play at an "average" volume level of 85db at 0.0 MV (Reference). The .1 channel will play 10db higher than that. Peak volumes at Reference will be 105db for the regular channels, and 115db for the .1 LFE channel. So far, so good. The problem is that most of us don't like to listen at Reference levels, and as we reduce our volume to more normal levels (-10 to -20 is pretty typical) the bass frequencies fall-off perceptually much more quickly than those in our more normal hearing range. (Again, there is a detailed explanation of this phenomenon in the guide and you can also research the Equal Loudness Contours for more information.)

DEQ was specifically designed to help address that perceived loss of bass, at below Reference volumes, but even with DEQ employed most people find the bass somewhat lacking, so it clearly is not a complete solution. Most people seem to need to add about +3 to +6db in addition to DEQ. For those of us who prefer not to use DEQ, even heavier sub boosts are required. But, DEQ is a separate software system which many people don't use. Perceptually low bass levels is not specifically an Audyssey issue. Audyssey's job is to set all of the channels in a system to play at the same volume, and with the same timing, as measured at the MLP.

Audyssey has to start with all of the channels playing at the same volume in order to create the Flat curve and the Reference curve. If the bass frequencies were playing relatively louder than the other frequencies, there would be no way to EQ the audio system to a flat frequency response. But, once Audyssey has done its job, it's up to the user to decide how loudly he wants to listen, and how much extra bass he likes. And, listening levels and bass preferences can vary dramatically, so with or without DEQ, there would be no one-size-fits-all solution to bass levels.

If we all listened at Reference volumes, in a properly calibrated system, we would be hearing the bass frequencies in movies just as the film mixers intended for us to hear them. (DEQ would be completely neutral at that point.) At that Reference level, the only additional sub boost that most of us might want would be for purposes of individual preference. And, I suspect that most of those boosts would be pretty modest. But, since most of us don't listen at Reference levels, there is a nearly universal requirement to add bass to a properly calibrated and EQed system, at below Reference listening levels, just to get back to the acoustic balance that film makers intended for us to hear.

Regards,
Mike

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post #35462 of 35942 Old 07-29-2017, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
^^^

FWIW, I think that it's a common misconception that Audyssey sets bass (meaning sub) levels too low. I believe it is actually doing just what it needs to be doing. There is a much more detailed discussion of this issue in the subwoofer guide, linked below, but this is a synopsis. First, Audyssey's task is to set all channels, including the .1 (LFE) channel to play at the same volume at the MLP. It does that by employing a 75db test tone. And, although there can be some variance in the accuracy of the Audyssey mics, they will typically be accurate with respect to the equivalent volume of all of the channels. So, all of the channels might be set a decibel higher or lower than 75db, but there wouldn't be a wide variance between the regular channels and the .1 channel.

Second, once all of the channels have been set equally with that 75db test tone, the AVR will automatically reconfigure the regular channels to play at an "average" volume level of 85db at 0.0 MV (Reference). The .1 channel will play 10db higher than that. Peak volumes at Reference will be 105db for the regular channels, and 115db for the .1 LFE channel. So far, so good. The problem is that most of us don't like to listen at Reference levels, and as we reduce our volume to more normal levels (-10 to -20 is pretty typical) the bass frequencies fall-off perceptually much more quickly than those in our more normal hearing range. (Again, there is a detailed explanation of this phenomenon in the guide and you can also research the Equal Loudness Contours for more information.)

DEQ was specifically designed to help address that perceived loss of bass, at below Reference volumes, but even with DEQ employed most people find the bass somewhat lacking, so it clearly is not a complete solution. Most people seem to need to add about +3 to +6db in addition to DEQ. For those of us who prefer not to use DEQ, even heavier sub boosts are required. But, DEQ is a separate software system which many people don't use. Perceptually low bass levels is not specifically an Audyssey issue. Audyssey's job is to set all of the channels in a system to play at the same volume, and with the same timing, as measured at the MLP.

Audyssey has to start with all of the channels playing at the same volume in order to create the Flat curve and the Reference curve. If the bass frequencies were playing relatively louder than the other frequencies, there would be no way to EQ the audio system to a flat frequency response. But, once Audyssey has done its job, it's up to the user to decide how loudly he wants to listen, and how much extra bass he likes. And, listening levels and bass preferences can vary dramatically, so with or without DEQ, there would be no one-size-fits-all solution to bass levels.

If we all listened at Reference volumes, in a properly calibrated system, we would be hearing the bass frequencies in movies just as the film mixers intended for us to hear them. (DEQ would be completely neutral at that point.) At that Reference level, the only additional sub boost that most of us might want would be for purposes of individual preference. And, I suspect that most of those boosts would be pretty modest. But, since most of us don't listen at Reference levels, there is a nearly universal requirement to add bass to a properly calibrated and EQed system, at below Reference listening levels, just to get back to the acoustic balance that film makers intended for us to hear.

Regards,
Mike


Excellent post!


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post #35463 of 35942 Old 07-29-2017, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
^^^

DEQ was specifically designed to help address that perceived loss of bass, at below Reference volumes, but even with DEQ employed most people find the bass somewhat lacking, so it clearly is not a complete solution. Most people seem to need to add about +3 to +6db in addition to DEQ. For those of us who prefer not to use DEQ, even heavier sub boosts are required. But, DEQ is a separate software system which many people don't use. Perceptually low bass levels is not specifically an Audyssey issue. Audyssey's job is to set all of the channels in a system to play at the same volume, and with the same timing, as measured at the MLP.

Regards,
Mike
I left DEQ on for TV and movies the last few years, but a couple months ago when I added two more V1801, I turned off DEQ and added an extra 4dB sub boost from my normal 6-8dB up to a 10-12dB boost with Audyssey Flat. I'm really liking it this way, but may go back to DEQ for a little while to A/B some content.

To my ear, it sounds cleaner at high volumes with DEQ off, so I may have been hearing more bloated bass with DEQ on at typical listening volumes around -10MV. Though the added headroom I have now, lower distortion, and smoother FR might have something to do with this as well.

Also, I have a love hate relationship with what DEQ does with the surround channels, as it really makes them pop during surround rich movies but can easily over power the front speakers, collapse the sound stage, and ruin the immersion.

What do most people here prefer that use Audyssey?

Speakers: PSA (MT-110 x2, MTM-210C, MT-110SR x2); SVS Satellite x4
Subs: PSA V1801 x2 & V1800 x2, B1200D x2
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post #35464 of 35942 Old 07-29-2017, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
I left DEQ on for TV and movies the last few years, but a couple months ago when I added two more V1801, I turned off DEQ and added an extra 4dB sub boost from my normal 6-8dB up to a 10-12dB boost with Audyssey Flat. I'm really liking it this way, but may go back to DEQ for a little while to A/B some content.

To my ear, it sounds cleaner at high volumes with DEQ off, so I may have been hearing more bloated bass with DEQ on at typical listening volumes around -10MV. Though the added headroom I have now, lower distortion, and smoother FR might have something to do with this as well.

Also, I have a love hate relationship with what DEQ does with the surround channels, as it really makes them pop during surround rich movies but can easily over power the front speakers, collapse the sound stage, and ruin the immersion.

What do most people here prefer that use Audyssey?
I used to have a bit of a love/hate relationship with DEQ, too. But, a couple of years ago I completely quit using it and now our relationship is perfect. From long participation on the Audyssey thread, I would say that most people who have Audyssey do use DEQ, some by default and some by deliberate choice. Virtually everyone who doesn't use it employees an independent sub boost to compensate. I had two primary issues with DEQ.

First, it boosts the bass in all of the channels and not just in the .1 channel, and I thought that a bass boost in the center channel sometimes made dialogue sound a little unnatural. Second, like yourself, I didn't particularly enjoy the surround boost. Some movies and TV shows already add some extra surround boost for ambiance. Over time, I found it annoying. But, both of those things are strictly YMMV issues. Many people love DEQ!
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post #35465 of 35942 Old 07-29-2017, 01:48 PM
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That's really impressive if they're not push/pull and still don't vibrate excessively.


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Push pull won't counteract vibrations like dual-opposed will. The heavy MDF cabinet limits the vibrations IME.
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post #35466 of 35942 Old 07-29-2017, 01:52 PM
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I use dynamic eq for most content unless I'm pushing things over -20. I also use dynamic volume but only for cable to help boost the dialogue since I rarely listen to regular old tv over -35.
Currently my sub levels are only boosted 3 db from what audyssey set them to.
Especially with the nearfield the bass is pretty extreme.
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post #35467 of 35942 Old 07-29-2017, 02:51 PM
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Audy is known to do that especially with the bass response, I believe it's important to check all channel levels post Audy calibration using REW to take measurements at the MLP with speakers set at or close to 75dB and sub channel 85dB with MV at 30 dB, sweep levels -3dBFS. Using the AVR's PN test tones will give inaccurate results as they are not Audy (calibrated) tones. You can adjust gain on the sub to compensate for the lower output level Audy sets for the sub. 50% seems very high, do you have an SPL meter to confirm the level?
I don't use REW. I do have an SPL, although I've really just let Audyssey do its thing and then bumped up bass in the subwoofer gain and also in the "speaker" setting. I'm sure I'm running quite hot, but I don't know that I've ever gone higher than -10 MV while watching a movie. Also, I find that many of the sources are just crap that I listen to. I listen to most music with the Spotify app via Fire. More recent songs sound pretty good, but older ones are definitely lacking.

Audio is a very complicated and aggravating thing. You can have everything calibrated great for one source (i.e. Blu-Rays), but then many other things might sound bad depending on whether it's HBO streamed vs. live, etc.
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post #35468 of 35942 Old 07-29-2017, 04:07 PM
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I agree with Mike's post on Audyssey.

Let's be honest. It's not Audyssey that's broken... we are the one's who are broken. We are the 1% of the population that thinks having multiple 15" or 18" subwoofers is normal. Sometimes we watch subpar movies just because they have great bass moments. We bring our friends over to watch 30 second demos of incredible bass scenes so we can show them how our subwoofers can knock things off the shelves. We don't just like our bass, we like our bass HOT! Right now I'm running 9dB hot over what Audyssey thinks it should be.

This place is an asylum for bass addicts. But since we're all alike we think this is normal.

Subwoofers: dual PSA V3601's with a PSA XV15se nearfield
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post #35469 of 35942 Old 07-29-2017, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
I agree with Mike's post on Audyssey.

Let's be honest. It's not Audyssey that's broken... we are the one's who are broken. We are the 1% of the population that thinks having multiple 15" or 18" subwoofers is normal. Sometimes we watch subpar movies just because they have great bass moments. We bring our friends over to watch 30 second demos of incredible bass scenes so we can show them how our subwoofers can knock things off the shelves. We don't just like our bass, we like our bass HOT! Right now I'm running 9dB hot over what Audyssey thinks it should be.

This place is an asylum for bass addicts. But since we're all alike we think this is normal.
"This place is an asylum for bass addicts." Love this statement. I bet a fair amount of our better half's think we need professional treatment or group therapy. I know mine does.

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post #35470 of 35942 Old 07-29-2017, 05:39 PM
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I agree with the guys, very impressive theater/equipment list. Can you post pics, once you get settled in, of the theater and equipment? I have a soft spot for the MTM210 and I thought about going with the exact speaker set-up as yours.
Certainly. I'll pull some pics down from DTV Forum where I have posted the pics, and put them up here. Are you happy for me to put the pics in here? Or somewhere else? Theatre isn't fully set up yet, but can post progress images etc. Actually need to get the sub into the room... it's rather heavy!
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post #35471 of 35942 Old 07-29-2017, 05:44 PM
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Certainly. I'll pull some pics down from DTV Forum where I have posted the pics, and put them up here. Are you happy for me to put the pics in here? Or somewhere else? Theatre isn't fully set up yet, but can post progress images etc. Actually need to get the sub into the room... it's rather heavy!
Go ahead and post them in here, it's a PSA set up so this is a perfect place.
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post #35472 of 35942 Old 07-29-2017, 05:55 PM
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No DEQ or DVOL for me either. I run a single session of audyssey and adjust sub amp gain repeatedly until I land on a -11.5 sub trim and then set it to 0.0 after the full audyssey run.

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post #35473 of 35942 Old 07-29-2017, 06:25 PM
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Just a quick question for you guys. With the massive firepower subs that you have running hot don't you get very unpleasant sounds in your room. I have a single v1801 and the vibration noises it causes can be annoying. I'm talking vents, pipes and gas fireplace. My theater is in the basement so maybe that is part of the issue?
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post #35474 of 35942 Old 07-29-2017, 07:26 PM
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I picked up dual V3601's yesterday from Tom and Jim, and installed them earlier today.
After calibrating levels and running Antimode, I settled in to listen: the best way to describe the difference from my former 18" sealed subs is the difference between a small hammer and sledgehammer, or a hand hammer and a jack hammer. Surprisingly to me, the bass was also textured, and nuanced, the opposite of boomy and one-noted. The v3601's seemed to wait patiently in the background, and then when called for, would hit hard and deep and clean, with no discernible overhang. These are keepers! Kudos to Tom and Jim for designing a sub this good for reasonable cost. I now need to rewatch some bass heavy movies in my collection to experience what quality bass sounds like in my room. Very well done!!!


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post #35475 of 35942 Old 07-29-2017, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
I picked up dual V3601's yesterday from Tom and Jim, and installed them earlier today.
After calibrating levels and running Antimode, I settled in to listen: the best way to describe the difference from my former 18" sealed subs is the difference between a small hammer and sledgehammer, or a hand hammer and a jack hammer. Surprisingly to me, the bass was also textured, and nuanced, the opposite of boomy and one-noted. The v3601's seemed to wait patiently in the background, and then when called for, would hit hard and deep and clean, with no discernible overhang. These are keepers! Kudos to Tom and Jim for designing a sub this good for reasonable cost. I now need to rewatch some bass heavy movies in my collection to experience what quality bass sounds like in my room. Very well done!!!


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Thanks for the quick update healthnut! I was curious how you would feel about the swap. Also, don't shy away from popping in your favorite concert discs. Settling in with Bohnam or Peart, The Eagles or the Killers. Maybe the Up in Smoke tour? Whatever floats your boat..

Also, I felt like we sort of rushed through our typical meet and great(tour)---sorry about that. But at least we got the twin V3601 subs in your SUV. I didn't think that was going to happen...a whole 1/8th inch to spare!

Tom V.
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post #35476 of 35942 Old 07-30-2017, 04:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Thanks for the quick update healthnut! I was curious how you would feel about the swap. Also, don't shy away from popping in your favorite concert discs. Settling in with Bohnam or Peart, The Eagles or the Killers. Maybe the Up in Smoke tour? Whatever floats your boat..



Also, I felt like we sort of rushed through our typical meet and great(tour)---sorry about that. But at least we got the twin V3601 subs in your SUV. I didn't think that was going to happen...a whole 1/8th inch to spare!



Tom V.

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Yes, I will be listening to some more music with these subs, and it should add an entire dimension to the experience. Kudos again to you and your team for fitting both subs in my Escape: visually it did not seem possible. Again, great meeting you, Jim, your younger assistant and your very friendly dog, and many thanks for all your help in getting these subs. I will add my voice to all the other owners of these great subs!


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post #35477 of 35942 Old 07-30-2017, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
I picked up dual V3601's yesterday from Tom and Jim, and installed them earlier today.
After calibrating levels and running Antimode, I settled in to listen: the best way to describe the difference from my former 18" sealed subs is the difference between a small hammer and sledgehammer, or a hand hammer and a jack hammer. Surprisingly to me, the bass was also textured, and nuanced, the opposite of boomy and one-noted. The v3601's seemed to wait patiently in the background, and then when called for, would hit hard and deep and clean, with no discernible overhang. These are keepers! Kudos to Tom and Jim for designing a sub this good for reasonable cost. I now need to rewatch some bass heavy movies in my collection to experience what quality bass sounds like in my room. Very well done!!!
Exactly! The V3601's are everything you described and as you do more listening to them you will find they are also a lot more. Enjoy and Congratulations.

Subwoofers: dual PSA V3601's with a PSA XV15se nearfield
Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210 Center- PSA 110sr Surrounds
Denon X4200 - Oppo UDP-203 - Panamax M4300 - Direct TV - Apple TV - Xbox360
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post #35478 of 35942 Old 07-30-2017, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Thanks for the quick update healthnut! I was curious how you would feel about the swap. Also, don't shy away from popping in your favorite concert discs. Settling in with Bohnam or Peart, The Eagles or the Killers. Maybe the Up in Smoke tour? Whatever floats your boat..

Also, I felt like we sort of rushed through our typical meet and great(tour)---sorry about that. But at least we got the twin V3601 subs in your SUV. I didn't think that was going to happen...a whole 1/8th inch to spare!

Tom V.
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Wow, and I thought the one inch we had to spare fitting twin V3601's into my wife's mini van was tight. When there's a will there's a way.
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post #35479 of 35942 Old 07-30-2017, 08:43 AM
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Exactly! The V3601's are everything you described and as you do more listening to them you will find they are also a lot more. Enjoy and Congratulations.


Thanks! I'm looking forward to the refined, effortless power these bring to the table.


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post #35480 of 35942 Old 07-30-2017, 09:43 AM
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Short write up by @imagic on the S7201 with a little more information.

http://www.avsforum.com/power-sound-...d-18-flagship/

Speakers: PSA (MT-110 x2, MTM-210C, MT-110SR x2); SVS Satellite x4
Subs: PSA V1801 x2 & V1800 x2, B1200D x2
Actuators: Crowson Tech Shadow-8 x2
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post #35481 of 35942 Old 07-30-2017, 12:24 PM
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Short write up by @imagic on the S7201 with a little more information.

http://www.avsforum.com/power-sound-...d-18-flagship/
Baltic birch... 140dB... single digit in room extension... I think I blacked out for a sec. What are we taking about?
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post #35482 of 35942 Old 07-30-2017, 12:57 PM
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Eeks...some S7201 bashing going on in JTR thread.
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post #35483 of 35942 Old 07-30-2017, 03:55 PM
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Well, I finally made the decision to upgrade to the V3601. I had seriously considered going JTR this time around, but after thinking about my needs and the overall out of pocket cost, the V3601 was the only logical choice.

Can't wait to hear this thing. I thought the V1801 rocked my place, can't wait for this thing!

And a big thanks to Tom for giving up his Sunday to be at work. A lot of companies talk about service, but few deliver at this level.

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post #35484 of 35942 Old 07-30-2017, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by subacabra View Post
Eeks...some S7201 bashing going on in JTR thread.
god I know, right? Had someone come into chat and ask me why Jeff hates us so much? I had no idea what he was talking about so he linked me to all of that hate-posting. Not that Jeff is involved but (imo) having your most vocal customers spew so many horrible personal insults and complete fabrications about a competitor IS a direct reflection of your company. Look at this thread. JTR introduces a monster and it is mainly "holy crap, i bet that thing rocks....drooooolllll"

Our customers seem to be fine with someone else choosing a different brand---heck I see THEM recommending JTR when they feel it will be the best choice! There's so many great options to consider and everyone with prioritize things a little different(customer service, finish, max output at 15hz in a parking lot , warranty, the size/price/performance balance, etc, etc). Anyone who has ever got me on the phone or in chat and asked me about JTR knows I say the same thing. "If it is down to us or JTR don't stress, you are getting a great product either way"

Just such a different atmosphere here. You pop in here and its a bunch of guys talking shop, movies, and just a general feeling of hanging out together with good friends. Go to the other thread and the focus is on what a scumbag I am and what a mistake it would be to purchase anything from Power Sound I'm very thankful to everyone here who refrains from that nonsense too. And please don't go over there to engage them in ANY way---just let the thread boil over on itself. Like I said, it really reflects on that company much more than Power Sound.


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Power Sound Audio

“Price is the last refuge for the business without the imagination or ability to offer more" - Unknown.
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post #35485 of 35942 Old 07-30-2017, 04:11 PM
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Baltic birch... 140dB... single digit in room extension... I think I blacked out for a sec. What are we taking about?
To be clear the BB is only implemented to save weight wherever possible. There is no, *no* performance benefit involved. I have seen claims to contrary parroted endlessly and I want to be sure everyone knows we're not making any such claims..

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Power Sound Audio

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post #35486 of 35942 Old 07-30-2017, 04:13 PM
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Wow, and I thought the one inch we had to spare fitting twin V3601's into my wife's mini van was tight. When there's a will there's a way.
This one was the closest ever I think. I wish I got a picture but I was in the middle of a few other things. It was really close though..

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post #35487 of 35942 Old 07-30-2017, 04:16 PM
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Just a quick question for you guys. With the massive firepower subs that you have running hot don't you get very unpleasant sounds in your room. I have a single v1801 and the vibration noises it causes can be annoying. I'm talking vents, pipes and gas fireplace. My theater is in the basement so maybe that is part of the issue?
Yeah, that is going to be inevitable to a large degree. If you start from scratch with a dedicated area there's a variety of methods you can implement to minimize all of it. But, otherwise, it can be difficult to reduce it significantly unless you are willing to address each specific offender one at a time..

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post #35488 of 35942 Old 07-30-2017, 04:18 PM
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@Tom Vodhanel

One review mentions Baltic Birch is used for the x7201 enclosure. If this comment is accurate, is this a departure from the MDF due to the cabinet size?

edit: Never mind man. You answered my question while I was typing it. Get some family time brother.
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Power Sound Audio s7201 Quad 18" Sealed Subwoofer (shipped and arriving soon!!!) - Onkyo TX-NR3009 - Emotiva XPA-2 300 WPC - Polk Audio RTiA9 Mains - CSiA6 Center - F/XiA6 Surrounds - Epson 5030UB Projector - Monoprice Multi-format 106" HD Gray screen - Samsung BD-F5900 3D Bluray - WDTV Live HD Media Player with 6TB External Storage - Nintendo Wii - XBox 360 - - XBox One S - Logitech Harmony One, and custom DIY media console...
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post #35489 of 35942 Old 07-30-2017, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Yeah, that is going to be inevitable to a large degree. If you start from scratch with a dedicated area there's a variety of methods you can implement to minimize all of it. But, otherwise, it can be difficult to reduce it significantly unless you are willing to address each specific offender one at a time..



Tom V.

Power Sound Audio


One way to do this is to run a CD with test tones (need to be careful of volume!) and deal with each rattling/vibrating object as it manifests itself. The tones usually will stay at a given frequency for few seconds, them move to the next one.


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post #35490 of 35942 Old 07-30-2017, 05:24 PM
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Don't feed. Must not feed.
And I don't even own any PSA products.
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