Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 127 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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Old 06-29-2013, 03:34 PM
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Does the Triax have 30 mm of x-max drivers? Did Tom mention this? If so this should have about the same output as a Cap S2.

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Old 06-29-2013, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dabbler61 View Post

I was all set to place an order for an XS-15, when my wife looked over my shoulder and said "why not get the XS-30? It's not that much more..." (do I have a great wife?). Could I inquire about shipping? I believe the XS-30 is shipped via ground freight; does someone need to sign for the shipment, or will the freight company leave the shipment? I won't be able to take a day off work for at least another month, but it would be nice not to have to wait for my new toy...biggrin.gif

Yes, you have a fabulous wife.
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Old 06-29-2013, 04:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Does the Triax have 30 mm of x-max drivers? Did Tom mention this? If so this should have about the same output as a Cap S2.

We don't actually know the xmax of the drivers in the Triax. Its only been said to have 3 inches of excursion so maybe as in xmech. But we don't know for sure. Most of us, I think assumed that 25mm to 30mm xmax seemed reasonable with an excursion of 3 inches.

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Old 06-29-2013, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

The point you're missing is that, if you place each sub in the room, and then measure at 1 meter, that will be enough distance for the room interaction to impact the measurement, and the FR of each sub will be different. If one of the subs has a big peak at say, 60 Hz, and the others don't, the one with the 60 Hz peak will measure louder, and will be set lower than the other subs.

If you *really* want to gain-match the subs, you need to move them to the middle of the room and then measure each one at 1" from the driver. That way the room will have minimal impact on the measured SPL, and the subs' inherent response will be measured.

Short of that, with identical subs and identical amps, you can just set the gains to the exact same setting.

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Just curious does one way yield better results than the other. I have my xv15s corner loaded on each side of wall they are both about 11ft from lp. I calibrate all speakers and subs to 80db with spl meter and avr sub trim 0 and volume at 15 SMS. For most part the subs gains are pretty much in same position. I get about 6db room gain. But i take it I level matched my subs.

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Old 06-29-2013, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

We don't actually know the xmax of the drivers in the Triax. Its only been said to have 3 inches of excursion so maybe as in xmech. But we don't know for sure. Most of us, I think assumed that 25mm to 30mm xmax seemed reasonable with an excursion of 3 inches.

3 inches peak to peak means 1.5 inches one way, no? X-max is one way.

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Old 06-29-2013, 05:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

If you *really* want to gain-match the subs,...

Based on your above....I don't want to "really" gain match the subs.....I just want to gain match the subs.

I understand the whole 1m vs 1", room interaction thingy and I realize anybody who wants, can climb as far down a rabbit hole of their choosing. In my case, I'm using the gain potentiometer to set the output of each of the subwoofers to equally to match the output of the other subwoofers, based on a measured 39"' or ~1m and a SPL of 70dB, using a freshly calibrated, Type II sound meter, knowing full well, even the SPL reading has minor (2.82%) SPL fluctuation issues.

Based on all I've read, despite there being the chance of room interaction and not having done comparative frequency response sweeps to verify exact duplication of frequency response, my above method does qualify as "gain" matching. But yes, agreed, you're correct, not putting the subwoofers in the middle of the room as you described and matching them in the fashion you suggest, doesn't qualify as "really" wanting to gain match the subwoofers output.
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Old 06-29-2013, 05:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manonfire View Post

Just curious does one way yield better results than the other. I have my xv15s corner loaded on each side of wall they are both about 11ft from lp. I calibrate all speakers and subs to 80db with spl meter and avr sub trim 0 and volume at 15 SMS. For most part the subs gains are pretty much in same position. I get about 6db room gain. But i take it I level matched my subs.

What Craig is rightly suggesting is intended to remove any of the room's influence on the subwoofer's output measurement. Without a comparative frequency sweep analysis, one doesn't know if they're working with identical output and by measuring at one inch, room influence is removed as much as reasonably possible.

The standard is to set the gain at 1m but doing so allows for room based acoustical influence. Personally, not having done a study, I have no idea how much difference setting measurements at 1m, 1ft or 1in makes when it comes to matching subwoofer output. I set the gain at a measured thirty-nine inches and then run EQ efforts and use REW as the final arbiter of our systems parametric settings. Not being a purist, in my opinion, setting a system flat in this fashion will get most of us where we want to go......in our seat, lights out, with a way cool movie track in progress.
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Old 06-29-2013, 05:52 PM
 
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Has anybody bought a psa sub (xv15, xs30, triax) with a veneer finish?
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Old 06-29-2013, 06:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

3 inches peak to peak means 1.5 inches one way, no? X-max is one way.

Right but we don't know if that was meant to be Xmech or Xmax. I think we can assume it was Xmech. But we still don't know max of the drivers.

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Old 06-29-2013, 06:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tristian0507 View Post

Has anybody bought a psa sub (xv15, xs30, triax) with a veneer finish?

I think so we should see people with veneered versions soon. Tom mentioned in another thread Triax's should start shipping in the middle of July so I assume at least by then we should see some of the smaller subs with veneers and by august we might see the veneered triaxs in the wild.

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Old 06-29-2013, 07:08 PM
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Does anyone know when the XV15 was released? Is it due for a refresh or new model soon? Just curious.
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Old 06-29-2013, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by SXRDISBEST View Post

Does anyone know when the XV15 was released? Is it due for a refresh or new model soon? Just curious.

It hasn't been out that long and is selling very well so there's no need to do a refresh/new model. The "refresh" was removing the baseplate in favor of rubber feet.

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Old 06-29-2013, 07:25 PM
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It hasn't been out that long and is selling very well so there's no need to do a refresh/new model. The "refresh" was removing the baseplate in favor of rubber feet.

Cool. That's good to know. I was wondering why there was a "base" model that seemed to be exactly the same besides the look and price.
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Old 06-29-2013, 07:48 PM
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Hey Beeman my friend,
Not to get off topic, but you mentioned spraying or something for SPIDERS, I live in eavily wooded area and prone to visiting wolf spiders, some very large and intimidating looking. I don't have a problem with them as I kind of like spiders, on the other hand my wife is absolutely frozen with fear when she sees one, especially the larger ones. I have sealed almost every concievable entry route into my home and the sightings have diminished considerably. There are some that still find their way in and the screams begin and I know what is the cause of the outburst....wolfman. Can you reco any kind of spray or preventative measures I could take to help with this? Thanks and sorry guys for the off topic question. eek.gif
Cheers Jeff
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Old 06-29-2013, 07:51 PM
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Hi Basshead,

Another mini dsp question, why did you get 2 way advanced 2.1 instead of advanced 2 way or 4 way? I am planning to get the xv30f, so I will have four subs.

I mainly want to use it for smoothing out the bass FR and adding a house curve.
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Old 06-29-2013, 08:14 PM
 
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Thanks and sorry guys for the off topic question. eek.gif

PM sent.
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Old 06-29-2013, 08:46 PM
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triax feet 002.jpg 37k .jpg file triax feet 001.jpg 37k .jpg file triax feet 001.jpg 37k .jpg file


Thanks Tom wink.gif Thought I would post my newest expresso Triax feet for my sub, I think I have 5 sets of 3 dufferent feet. These are are made from 4 X 4 about 2" high with sliders on the bottom.
Cheers Jeff

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Old 06-29-2013, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by manonfire View Post

Just curious does one way yield better results than the other. I have my xv15s corner loaded on each side of wall they are both about 11ft from lp. I calibrate all speakers and subs to 80db with spl meter and avr sub trim 0 and volume at 15 SMS. For most part the subs gains are pretty much in same position. I get about 6db room gain. But i take it I level matched my subs.
Yes, what you're doing is level-matching... and level-matching *can* be the equivalent of gain-matching... if the subs are relatively equidistant to the listening/measuring position, and they similarly load the room modes. If the gain settings on the sub are "pretty much in the same position" then you've both level-matched and gain-matched.

Gain-matching can be a better solution if the gains are set significantly differently with level-matching. When that happens, the subs are no longer "identical" subs, they're set to different gain structures and the higher set sub will have less headroom than the lower set sub. The higher set sub will compress and distort before the lower set sub and it will set the overall "limits" for the subwoofer system. If you have identical subs and you want to ensure that you can use the maximum capability of all the subs, gain-matching is the only way to do that.
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

The standard is to set the gain at 1m but doing so allows for room based acoustical influence.
Measuring at 1 meter is the "standard" for measuring speaker sensitivity and frequency response in an anechoic environment. However, that's not the standard for measuring subwoofers. The CEA2010 standard for measuring subwoofers is to measure them at 1 meter OUTDOORS, GROUND PLANE where no room effects are possible. If they are measured indoors, they are to be corrected for the room's modal response with an empirically derived Room Correction Factor, (RCF): http://personal.inet.fi/private/zipman/starobin_CEA2010.pdf If you are not applying the RCF, your 1 meter measurements are not being performed according to the "standard." You may discount the importance of this for yourself, and that's fine, but when giving advice to others, you should not portray the "standard" as something it is not.

Measuring the sub in the middle of the room at 1" from the driver is as close as one can get to an outdoor groundplane measurement, (in terms of removing the room from the measured response), as is possible without taking the sub outdoors. When gain-matching, it is absolutely essential to remove the room's sonic signature from the measurement.
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Personally, not having done a study, I have no idea how much difference setting measurements at 1m, 1ft or 1in makes when it comes to matching subwoofer output.
And there's the rub... you're telling people it's OK to do it your way, when you really have "no idea" if it's OK. It's perfectly fine for you to do this in your own system. However, when telling other people how to do it, we should only ever give the *correct* advice, even if that advice seems overly OCD or "purist."
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I set the gain at a measured thirty-nine inches and then run EQ efforts and use REW as the final arbiter of our systems parametric settings. Not being a purist, in my opinion, setting a system flat in this fashion will get most of us where we want to go......in our seat, lights out, with a way cool movie track in progress.
Unfortunately, you're right... that's probably good enough for "most of us."

Craig

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

My System

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Old 06-29-2013, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

We don't actually know the xmax of the drivers in the Triax. Its only been said to have 3 inches of excursion so maybe as in xmech. But we don't know for sure. Most of us, I think assumed that 25mm to 30mm xmax seemed reasonable with an excursion of 3 inches.



The psa site did say 30mm xmax,it appears the page was edited to reflect 3" peak to peak excursion which = 30mm xmax anyway I believe.

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Old 06-29-2013, 11:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

And there's the rub... you're telling people it's OK to do it your way, when you really have "no idea" if it's OK. It's perfectly fine for you to do this in your own system. However, when telling other people how to do it, we should only ever give the *correct* advice, even if that advice seems overly OCD or "purist."

FWIW, people can do anything they want with their subwoofer system. If they want to go all Chainsaw Al on their subwoofer, they're welcome to. And yes, I do know that it's okay to set one's subwoofer system up the way I recommend and if they do what I recommend, it will meet the scientific repeatability requirement in other similarly placed venues.

Considering the standard is taking gain setting measurements at 1m, it's excellent advice and it is okay to give this advice, yet at the same time, I took time to enter additional information or you wouldn't have the quote you quoted forward to beat me with. When giving information, it helps to give "real" information that can be used in the "real" world. Nobody's system is going blow up and nobody is going get surround material all over their listening space.

I'm posting about using the gain potentiometer to obtain equal generalized output reading at 1m. I'm not posting about a comparative frequency response between three separately positioned subwoofers. What I'm recommending is gain matching output for the purpose of EQ'g a room. Not having done a study of 1m vs 1ft vs 1in is not a fatal flaw in my recommendation. This point was intentionally made so if someone wishes to research this point, further, they're welcome to. Considering how poorly most willingly set their subwoofer reproduction sound system up, many not even being in possession of a sound meter, let alone room measuring capability, my advice is light years ahead of what they're currently doing.

The point despite your concern, my advice was correct advice and came with proper caveats, even if you think it didn't.

Quote:
Unfortunately, you're right... that's probably good enough for "most of us."

Great! In an imperfect world, a point we can agree upon. biggrin.gif

(Considering that I have the means, I must admit, some one inch measurements could prove entertaining)

Where do I place the one inch mark? From the center of the cone or the squared off face of the surround?

-
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Old 06-30-2013, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

The psa site did say 30mm xmax,it appears the page was edited to reflect 3" peak to peak excursion which = 30mm xmax anyway I believe.

Yeah I could have sworn in an email from Tom he said 30mm xmax too.
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Old 06-30-2013, 02:47 AM
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Question? Do any of you happen to have a pic of the bottom side of the PSA XV15? If so could u post it? I'm looking at buying one but I'm gonna have to lay it on its side to put it where I have to and the wife wants to see what she's gonna have to look at. Lol I have to get her approval before I buy. Lol oh and fyi I'm not talking about the version with the base plate naturally I'm looking for a pic that shows the woofer beneath. smile.gif
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Old 06-30-2013, 08:45 AM
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Question? Do any of you happen to have a pic of the bottom side of the PSA XV15? If so could u post it? I'm looking at buying one but I'm gonna have to lay it on its side to put it where I have to and the wife wants to see what she's gonna have to look at. Lol I have to get her approval before I buy. Lol oh and fyi I'm not talking about the version with the base plate naturally I'm looking for a pic that shows the woofer beneath. smile.gif

There are pics on the psa website.

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Old 06-30-2013, 09:28 AM
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Question? Do any of you happen to have a pic of the bottom side of the PSA XV15? If so could u post it? I'm looking at buying one but I'm gonna have to lay it on its side to put it where I have to and the wife wants to see what she's gonna have to look at. Lol I have to get her approval before I buy. Lol oh and fyi I'm not talking about the version with the base plate naturally I'm looking for a pic that shows the woofer beneath. smile.gif

I'm curious...the XV15's footprint is larger if placed on its side than if placed normally. Why do you have to place it on its side? Is the height the issue?

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There are pics on the psa website.

I also thought there were pics of the bottom of the XV15, but I don't see them now?

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Old 06-30-2013, 09:37 AM
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yes it appears the website has been edited...Tom please put it back the way it was lol! yes the foot print is larger placed on its side.
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Old 06-30-2013, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by tristian0507 View Post

Has anybody bought a psa sub (xv15, xs30, triax) with a veneer finish?
I bought my dual Triax's with the standard finish. I like it because it is very durable. Mine will also be out of sight. Subs tend to take a little abuse being shifted around and the standard finish on the Power X line has been great.
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Old 06-30-2013, 02:23 PM
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I'm curious...the XV15's footprint is larger if placed on its side than if placed normally. Why do you have to place it on its side? Is the height the issue?
I also thought there were pics of the bottom of the XV15, but I don't see them now?
ya, I only have 19" as for as height goes.
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Old 06-30-2013, 07:09 PM
 
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What would be a better match for either XV15 or XS30, Im thinking of upgrading my media room with new and better speakers. I currently have 5.2 Bic Acoustech pl89's HT system with dual bic pl-200's subs. I narrowed it down to Klipsch 82ii, klipsch 64ii, 4 cdt 5800 in ceiling speakers ( I can get a great deal, $2500 for all brand new) OR Martin Logan motion 40, martin logan motion 30 center, and (4) helos 22 in ceiling speakers (these would be at retail price, looking at $4000.00)? Budget is I guess $4000.00 for fronts, center, 4 in ceiling speakers.
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Old 06-30-2013, 08:20 PM
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AS far as veneer goes, Jim informed that every finished sub cherry , expresso etc. starts out as every cab wall has a 1/16 sheet of real wood veneer attached to both cab walls, inside and out to prevent bowing and then the woodshop does the cabinet maching to cut all the edges and then applies the stain of your choice. I choose the expresso I guess veneer finisn. I was give permission to show a couple of pics of my Triax in completed cabinet form sans drivers and amp, what do you think.
258.jpg 187k .jpg file

259 TRIAX Unfinished.jpg 186k .jpg file

260.jpg 146k .jpg file

261.jpg 162k .jpg file

I'm liking this, I'm hoping the spot I have all ready for it turns out to be the best sound location, it is a perfect corner fit.
Cheers Jeff wink.gif

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Old 06-30-2013, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post

AS far as veneer goes, Jim informed that every finished sub cherry , expresso etc. starts out as every cab wall has a 1/16 sheet of real wood veneer attached to both cab walls, inside and out to prevent bowing and then the woodshop does the cabinet maching to cut all the edges and then applies the stain of your choice. I choose the expresso I guess veneer finisn. I was give permission to show a couple of pics of my Triax in completed cabinet form sans drivers and amp, what do you think.
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259 TRIAX Unfinished.jpg 186k .jpg file

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I'm liking this, I'm hoping the spot I have all ready for it turns out to be the best sound location, it is a perfect corner fit.
Cheers Jeff wink.gif
Thats very nice!! Wish I had the means to get one. That thing is gonna be a beast. I like the color to its the same color as my entertainment center. smile.gif
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Denon Avr 3313ci Receiver , Denon Avr 4520ci Receiver , Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver , Power Sound Audio , Power Sound Audio Triax , Room Equilizer Wizard Rew , v1500 , V3600i , Velodyne Sms 1 In Room Bass Correction Kit With Included Microphone , Xs30 , Xv15
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