Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 136 - AVS Forum
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post #4051 of 13809 Old 07-07-2013, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

So how would you compare them for movies?

Short answer, I love the XS30's and don't regret the change at all.

I wanted duals, but not at the price of purchasing a second PC13. I got the PC13 at an incredible price new (before price increases, plus it received the a discount for repeat customer). I also received the updated Sledge amp under a warranty exchange from problems on the original Bash. Keep in mind that I never did get a chance to compare them side by side since I sold the PC13 about 2 months before I purchased the XS30's. Plus, I was swapping out equipment and purchased an antimode since adding the XS30's, which replaced the BFD that I used with the PC13. Although I was able to get both scenarios to have fairly flat response curve with REW, I have had lots of changed variables, so take my comments for what it's worth:

Regarding ultra low frequencies: I have a bad null even with the duals, but over all, the XS30's fill the room much better. I feel the ultra low pressure much more now, but there were times that I recall feeling the air (like wind) more with the PC13, even though it was across the room (different, but incredible). I couldn't ever tell if it was from the port or the pressurizing of the room?? I did have to put some heavy EQ with the PC13, as the lower frequencies were so much more pronounced due to my room gain.

30hz and up: No contest - I love the XS30's. It fills the room and just sounds powerful. I can't really add to this. I was never satisfied with the PC13. It may be because the PC13 is designed to be an all out ULF sub, where as the XS30's spare no compromise in the upper frequencies of the sub range. I think it is a combination of this and that I am now running duals.

I hope this helps.


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post #4052 of 13809 Old 07-07-2013, 06:20 PM
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Hey guys, I don't want to get off topic but there was a discussion in this thread somewhere a long while back about determining polarity and correct sub phase.
It started out like this: Here's a method of determining polarity stolen, er, borrowed from another forum thread.
1. Reverse the polarity of the left speaker by swapping it's leads.
2. Start playing your pink noise source into the speaker and sub. You will want to disconnect all other speakers temporarily for this test.
There is more to follow that I understand, (forgive my ignorance), I'm lost after step two. I'm assuming the pink noise generator is the AVR, correct me if I'm wrong. How do you get the pink noise to play through left speaker and sub simultaneously? I told you to forgive my ignorance. Here is the rest of the borrowed thread.
3. With the RS SPL meter fixed at your listening position (and having it set to SLOW speed and C-weighting), note the the SPL reading when the phase is 0.
4. Start changing the phase and note the the SPL readings.
5. Pick the phase angle that gave the minimum SPL reading.
6. Reverse the speaker leads to their normal positions and reconnect the rest of the speaker system.

******Since the needle on the SPL meter usually bounces around a bit while measuring bass frequencies it's often easier to find the minumum SPL using this method instead of trying to find the the max SPL.
Guys I really appreciate your feedback here and apologize for my ignorance of subject matter, I'm embarrassed to ask but I'm not to proud to admit when I don't understand something even if it's probably as straight-forward an answer as this one.

I have been chatting with Jim quite a bit lately, have no problem getting a hold of them, Jim is very informative and helpful and quite the gentleman as well, Tom and Jim make for one hell of a team, so glad I was an early adopter to PSA. I have wasted so much time, effort and money prior to finding PSA. Thanks guys for your patience and understanding, I look forward to the replies.
Cheers, Jeff smile.gif

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post #4053 of 13809 Old 07-07-2013, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndskurfer View Post

Short answer, I love the XS30's and don't regret the change at all.

I wanted duals, but not at the price of purchasing a second PC13. I got the PC13 at an incredible price new (before price increases, plus it received the a discount for repeat customer). I also received the updated Sledge amp under a warranty exchange from problems on the original Bash. Keep in mind that I never did get a chance to compare them side by side since I sold the PC13 about 2 months before I purchased the XS30's. Plus, I was swapping out equipment and purchased an antimode since adding the XS30's, which replaced the BFD that I used with the PC13. Although I was able to get both scenarios to have fairly flat response curve with REW, I have had lots of changed variables, so take my comments for what it's worth:

Regarding ultra low frequencies: I have a bad null even with the duals, but over all, the XS30's fill the room much better. I feel the ultra low pressure much more now, but there were times that I recall feeling the air (like wind) more with the PC13, even though it was across the room (different, but incredible). I couldn't ever tell if it was from the port or the pressurizing of the room?? I did have to put some heavy EQ with the PC13, as the lower frequencies were so much more pronounced due to my room gain.

30hz and up: No contest - I love the XS30's. It fills the room and just sounds powerful. I can't really add to this. I was never satisfied with the PC13. It may be because the PC13 is designed to be an all out ULF sub, where as the XS30's spare no compromise in the upper frequencies of the sub range. I think it is a combination of this and that I am now running duals.

I hope this helps.

Thanks.

How much room volume do you have? I've got about 5500ft3 and some have expressed I may not benefit as much from room gain that the sealed designs rely on.

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post #4054 of 13809 Old 07-07-2013, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

There is a simple answer to why this sub isn't as impressive as we would think. Well two actually. There is no replacement for displacement. And when you go with a very small cabinet you loose lower end efficiency.

Funk makes nice stuff but they seem to focus on the mid bass and being small and compact at the loose of low prices.

I bet if Tom and Jim could have gotten the ouput they wanted out of one mega 18 they would have likely went with it for the Triax or even one middle of the road 18 for the SX30.

But we learned that if you want to go sealed and get good output for a reasonable price you need more than one driver. Its like when the JL F113 got reviewed I remember thinking its output wasn't good enough for its price. Its been proven with even the best drivers and amplifiers (JL , TC sound LMS-ultra) you can't get great output with just one driver and a smaller cabinet, at least not for a good price.


did you look at the specs on the 18.0c? Its not much smaller than a xs30. Imo that is not compact at all and I would rather have the output over a couple inches difference in enclosure size. Most folks would not consider any sub 20"+ compact, so building a 18" compact sub is pointless imo.

18.0c- 20x18.5x20 (no grill)

xs30- 23.5x18x22.5 (with grill and feet included)
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post #4055 of 13809 Old 07-07-2013, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post

Hey guys, I don't want to get off topic but there was a discussion in this thread somewhere a long while back about determining polarity and correct sub phase.
It started out like this: Here's a method of determining polarity stolen, er, borrowed from another forum thread.
1. Reverse the polarity of the left speaker by swapping it's leads.
2. Start playing your pink noise source into the speaker and sub. You will want to disconnect all other speakers temporarily for this test.
There is more to follow that I understand, (forgive my ignorance), I'm lost after step two. I'm assuming the pink noise generator is the AVR, correct me if I'm wrong. How do you get the pink noise to play through left speaker and sub simultaneously? I told you to forgive my ignorance. Here is the rest of the borrowed thread.
3. With the RS SPL meter fixed at your listening position (and having it set to SLOW speed and C-weighting), note the the SPL reading when the phase is 0.
4. Start changing the phase and note the the SPL readings.
5. Pick the phase angle that gave the minimum SPL reading.
6. Reverse the speaker leads to their normal positions and reconnect the rest of the speaker system.

******Since the needle on the SPL meter usually bounces around a bit while measuring bass frequencies it's often easier to find the minumum SPL using this method instead of trying to find the the max SPL.
Guys I really appreciate your feedback here and apologize for my ignorance of subject matter, I'm embarrassed to ask but I'm not to proud to admit when I don't understand something even if it's probably as straight-forward an answer as this one.

I have been chatting with Jim quite a bit lately, have no problem getting a hold of them, Jim is very informative and helpful and quite the gentleman as well, Tom and Jim make for one hell of a team, so glad I was an early adopter to PSA. I have wasted so much time, effort and money prior to finding PSA. Thanks guys for your patience and understanding, I look forward to the replies.
Cheers, Jeff smile.gif



Hi, I get the phase part but there's a phase control on most subs for this, but I don't get the reason for changing the polarity, maybe you can fill me in.
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post #4056 of 13809 Old 07-07-2013, 08:11 PM
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Anyone here using the XS15 in their HT? A lot of posts on XS30 and XV15 but not seeing much with the XS15.

Some pics of them in your room would be awesome too!
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post #4057 of 13809 Old 07-07-2013, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by BB1111 View Post

Anyone here using the XS15 in their HT? A lot of posts on XS30 and XV15 but not seeing much with the XS15.

Some pics of them in your room would be awesome too!

Read back thru the thread there is plenty of folks with xs15's and there is plenty of pics floating around. Jim Cutter was one of the latest that went with dual xs15's and posted pic's.
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post #4058 of 13809 Old 07-08-2013, 02:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

did you look at the specs on the 18.0c? Its not much smaller than a xs30. Imo that is not compact at all and I would rather have the output over a couple inches difference in enclosure size. Most folks would not consider any sub 20"+ compact, so building a 18" compact sub is pointless imo.

18.0c- 20x18.5x20 (no grill)

xs30- 23.5x18x22.5 (with grill and feet included)

Actually I looked closer at the driver it seems in part to be a lack of high xmax compared to the 18.0. I was more making a general statement than picking on the funk. My point was more drivers with a reasonable size and good power is easier than relying on one big mega driver.

For example the XS30 gains efficiency from the second driver and spreading the thermal load across more than one driver helps also. And it would be hard to get an 18 inch driver to do the same for the same price.

ShaunH
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post #4059 of 13809 Old 07-08-2013, 02:47 AM - Thread Starter
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I keep coming back to this.... I know its rampant speculation. But here goes.

I wonder if there is room for a sub below the Triax. In that a supped up XS30 with two Triax Drivers and the 2400w amp (used in the subversive, cap1, cap 2400). The enclosure might need to be changed (made bigger or smaller). But I can't help but think it would be a nice in between the triax and the SX30. That would allow people to get duals with more power than the SX30 if a single triax isn't an option.

The only problem I can see would be price. I don't know if that sub could be built cheaply enough. Unfortunately the subversive is pretty cheap all things considered.

ShaunH
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post #4060 of 13809 Old 07-08-2013, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

I keep coming back to this.... I know its rampant speculation. But here goes.

I wonder if there is room for a sub below the Triax. In that a supped up XS30 with two Triax Drivers and the 2400w amp (used in the subversive, cap1, cap 2400). The enclosure might need to be changed (made bigger or smaller). But I can't help but think it would be a nice in between the triax and the SX30. That would allow people to get duals with more power than the SX30 if a single triax isn't an option.

The only problem I can see would be price. I don't know if that sub could be built cheaply enough. Unfortunately the subversive is pretty cheap all things considered.

Actually I would like to see a Biax-V...Dual 15" Triax drivers in a vented enclosure , with 2400rms speaker power amp, tuned for 12-15hz.

I would think this could be done for around 2k, but not sure.
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post #4061 of 13809 Old 07-08-2013, 06:09 AM
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^^
+1. All that for $2k, I don't see why not from PSA.
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post #4062 of 13809 Old 07-08-2013, 06:12 AM
 
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I see this fast becoming a cost thing as once one starts expecting high xMax drivers and Amps capable of driving said drivers to their limits with a properly created box that not only does it's job but has a furniture grade appearance, all of a sudden, price wise, XV30's and Triaxs look mighty appealing.

In my opinion, this is more about coveting Seaton or Funk subwoofers at a PSA price as ideas begin to suffer price creep. cool.gif

Myself, I'm a simple man and due to costs and how we'll personally use the subwoofers have stopped looking to Seaton Sound and Funk Audio to supply our subwoofer needs and have started looking to Rythmik and PSA to provide for our multiple subwoofer needs which would comprise a double driver box and one or two single driver boxes.
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post #4063 of 13809 Old 07-08-2013, 06:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Actually I would like to see a Biax-V...Dual 15" Triax drivers in a vented enclosure , with 2400rms speaker power amp, tuned for 12-15hz.

I would think this could be done for around 2k, but not sure.

I doubt it. Mostly because of the amp price. I don't think the 2.4kw amp is much cheaper than the 4kw. Speaker power lists the 2.4kw at only a one hundred dollar cheaper. But then again if if a sub in the $2499 to $2799 a sub might be able to compete with the Submersive HP.

Also I think the Triax drivers are set up for a sealed box. I assume they are designed with a high air spring (sealed enclosure) in mind.

Buts its not fair to compare products to Seaton as you can't buy without emailing Mark and they still don't have a website after 8 plus year.... anyway

ShaunH
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post #4064 of 13809 Old 07-08-2013, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

I keep coming back to this.... I know its rampant speculation. But here goes.

I wonder if there is room for a sub below the Triax. In that a supped up XS30 with two Triax Drivers and the 2400w amp (used in the subversive, cap1, cap 2400). The enclosure might need to be changed (made bigger or smaller). But I can't help but think it would be a nice in between the triax and the SX30. That would allow people to get duals with more power than the SX30 if a single triax isn't an option.

The only problem I can see would be price. I don't know if that sub could be built cheaply enough. Unfortunately the subversive is pretty cheap all things considered.

I'd love to see an "XS60" or something like that. Still the same design as the XS30 but with 4 15" subs. 2 front firing and 2 rear firing I guess my idea would make this about the height of the XV30f (so would that be considered quad opposed or double dual opposed?). And with a 1,000 - 2,400 watt rms amp.

Shawn
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post #4065 of 13809 Old 07-08-2013, 06:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I see this fast becoming a cost thing as once one starts expecting high xMax drivers and Amps capable of driving said drivers to their limits with a properly created box that not only does it's job but has a furniture grade appearance, all of a sudden, price wise, XV30's and Triaxs look mighty appealing.

In my opinion, this is more about coveting Seaton or Funk subwoofers at a PSA price as ideas begin to suffer price creep. cool.gif

Myself, I'm a simple man and due to costs and how we'll personally use the subwoofers have stopped looking to Seaton Sound and Funk Audio to supply our subwoofer needs and have started looking to Rythmik and PSA to provide for our multiple subwoofer needs which would comprise a double driver box and one or two single driver boxes.

I don't know, I don't think the PSA Triax will have anyone point to it and say its not a damn fine sub. Seeing as one will likely easily beat a funk audio 18.0 at only a little more . I can't wait for reviews.... It should be right up there with the Seaton, JTR and of course funk audio. I honestly won't recommend any of the JTR or Seaton stuff until they actually get reviewed. Not for that much money.lol

ShaunH
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post #4066 of 13809 Old 07-08-2013, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Actually I would like to see a Biax-V...Dual 15" Triax drivers in a vented enclosure , with 2400rms speaker power amp, tuned for 12-15hz.

I would think this could be done for around 2k, but not sure.

eek.gifbiggrin.gif

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post #4067 of 13809 Old 07-08-2013, 06:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by flickhtguru View Post

I'd love to see an "XS60" or something like that. Still the same design as the XS30 but with 4 15" subs. 2 front firing and 2 rear firing I guess my idea would make this about the height of the XV30f (so would that be considered quad opposed or double dual opposed?). And with a 1,000 - 2,400 watt rms amp.

I'm guess this is why the Triax came about a simpler possibly smaller design, with equal or more output.
One XS30:

CEA-2010 Ratings (2m ground plane)

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 107.6dB
Low bass (40-63Hz): 122.2dB

If you you where to have two you would get 113.6dB and 128.2dB Which if you compare it to the Triax

CEA-2010 Ratings (2m ground plane)

Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 116.4dB
Low bass (40-63Hz): 127.1dB

You still 2.8dB behind on ultra low bass and only 1.1dB ahead in the low bass. In other words it wouldn't make sense as you would likely need more space and and more weight to get where the Triax is.

ShaunH
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post #4068 of 13809 Old 07-08-2013, 06:38 AM - Thread Starter
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More pictures. Tom posted these on bluray forum. more veneered subs getting ready to ship.



]

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post #4069 of 13809 Old 07-08-2013, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

More pictures. Tom posted these on bluray forum. more veneered subs getting ready to ship.

Don't tease me bro!

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...eek.gif

...tongue.gif

...biggrin.gif
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After going back and forth with Tom V. at PSA (as experienced by others, he provided me a tremendous support), I'm now officially part of the PSA family.

My order for a XS30 - Cordovan Cherry was placed a couple of minutes ago.............now I just need to wait..............mad.gif

tongue.gif
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post #4072 of 13809 Old 07-08-2013, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by cr136124 View Post

After going back and forth with Tom V. at PSA (as experienced by others, he provided me a tremendous support), I'm now officially part of the PSA family.

My order for a XS30 - Cordovan Cherry was placed a couple of minutes ago.............now I just need to wait..............mad.gif

tongue.gif

Congrats and welcome to the XS30 club, membership has its previleges! wink.gif
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post #4073 of 13809 Old 07-08-2013, 09:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by cr136124 View Post

After going back and forth with Tom V. at PSA (as experienced by others, he provided me a tremendous support), I'm now officially part of the PSA family.

.............now I just need to wait..............mad.gif

And wait and wait and wait. Well, that takes care of the first minute. tongue.gif

We will eagerly look forward toward your first impressions.
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post #4074 of 13809 Old 07-08-2013, 10:08 AM
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I would love to see this. Tom should build that:eek:. Spoiled spoiled spoiled to the core.biggrin.gif. Can the man just turn a profit please? Designs cost money, not to mention cannibalising his own offerings.tongue.gif
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post #4075 of 13809 Old 07-08-2013, 10:54 AM
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Congrats and welcome to the XS30 club, membership has its previleges! wink.gif

Thanks! Looking forward to enjoy the privileges........wink.gif
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And wait and wait and wait. Well, that takes care of the first minute. tongue.gif

We will eagerly look forward toward your first impressions.


I'm eagerly looking forward to make my own impressions as well...........biggrin.gif

Just 14 days, 14 hours, 5 minutes and 45 seconds to receive it.......tongue.gif


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post #4076 of 13809 Old 07-08-2013, 10:57 AM
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Well done Carlos!!!

Welcome to the family. Either I or you need to stop buying stuff because it makes the other get the itch hahahaha

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post #4077 of 13809 Old 07-08-2013, 11:38 AM
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Well done Carlos!!!

Welcome to the family. Either I or you need to stop buying stuff because it makes the other get the itch hahahaha

Thanks Brian!

Stop says the guy that is building that amazing 2.1 music system? Yeah......riiiigggghhhttt!!!

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post #4078 of 13809 Old 07-08-2013, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

Thanks.

How much room volume do you have? I've got about 5500ft3 and some have expressed I may not benefit as much from room gain that the sealed designs rely on.

I do have a much smaller room, around 2400ft3. I don't think I would have considered the XS30's with a room as large as yours. At that point, I would be considering a pair of XV30f's - those subs look incredible.


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post #4079 of 13809 Old 07-08-2013, 07:50 PM
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I do have a much smaller room, around 2400ft3. I don't think I would have considered the XS30's with a room as large as yours. At that point, I would be considering a pair of XV30f's - those subs look incredible.

Thanks. I appreciate your feedback. smile.gif

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post #4080 of 13809 Old 07-08-2013, 08:03 PM
 
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One can consider a single XS30 and two XS15's that should do a bang up job filling a 5,500 cu ft room with bass sound.
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Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

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Xs30 , Velodyne Sms 1 In Room Bass Correction Kit With Included Microphone , Denon Avr 3313ci Receiver , Denon Avr 4520ci Receiver , Power Sound Audio , Xv15 , Power Sound Audio Triax , Room Equilizer Wizard Rew , Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver
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