Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 139 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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Old 07-11-2013, 10:07 PM
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Lol...no its this new asus transformer. Taking some getting use too.

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Old 07-11-2013, 10:07 PM
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He does that when he is really adamant about something. wink.gif

He's just trying to get his post count up!..lol
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Old 07-11-2013, 10:18 PM
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Hells yea!

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Old 07-11-2013, 10:22 PM
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Alright Steve I give in, post some of these DIY pics or PM them to me. I want to see them now! biggrin.gif

I just posted a few over in the SVS thread but then deleted the post tongue.gif I'll let nuet be. Oh! check this post out, my worst creation.. smile.gif
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1481240/whats-the-worst-expensive-or-worst-large-subwoofer-youve-ever-heard I don't want to muck up this thread. I'll PM
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Old 07-11-2013, 10:25 PM
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I just posted a few over in the SVS thread but then deleted the post tongue.gif I'll let nuet be. Oh! check this post out, my worst creation.. smile.gif
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1481240/whats-the-worst-expensive-or-worst-large-subwoofer-youve-ever-heard I don't want to muck up this thread. I'll PM

Too late...tongue.gif

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Old 07-11-2013, 10:53 PM
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Too late...tongue.gif

You know what kind of pic that deserves. tongue.gif

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Old 07-12-2013, 07:45 AM
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20 and 16Hz tune was good.

I'm using my dual Pluses in 16 Hz tune, and I didn't even try the 20 Hz tune after that. I have excess output anyway so I might as well use the extra headroom to get more extension.

Are there variable-tuning PSA subs? Or are they already tuned lower than 20 Hz? Sorry guys, can't look at the specs right now biggrin.gif

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Old 07-12-2013, 09:43 AM
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I'm using my dual Pluses in 16 Hz tune, and I didn't even try the 20 Hz tune after that. I have excess output anyway so I might as well use the extra headroom to get more extension.

Are there variable-tuning PSA subs? Or are they already tuned lower than 20 Hz? Sorry guys, can't look at the specs right now biggrin.gif

Yes its called the Triax, its tuned for as low as your body can handle wink.gif
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Old 07-12-2013, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by neutro View Post

I'm using my dual Pluses in 16 Hz tune, and I didn't even try the 20 Hz tune after that. I have excess output anyway so I might as well use the extra headroom to get more extension.

Are there variable-tuning PSA subs? Or are they already tuned lower than 20 Hz? Sorry guys, can't look at the specs right now biggrin.gif

There is no variable tuning on PSA subs...imo there is no need. I am sure if Tom thought it was a important feature it would of been considered. Aside from what a few say, from what I see most folks run thier subs in max extension mode, so why have two other modes if you are not going to use them anway? The XV subs are tuned for 18hz and they extend to 15hz easily. The pb+ and the xv15 have around the same output @ 16-30hz and the xv15 has 2-3db more midbass output 40-80hz...Tom and I actually just discussed this via email 2 weeks ago.
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Old 07-12-2013, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

IIRC, Tom addressed the issue here as well and mentioned the same conclusion that most run their subs in max extension mode. He also mentioned the matter of engineering compromises inherent to variable tune designs as well as the added cost.

I was going to bring this up but then decided not to due to his opinion and not wanting to start anything wink.gif Lets just say he is not crazy about the idea. smile.gif

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Old 07-12-2013, 11:14 AM
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The Triax has two user selectable DSP programs for optimization in almost any room size. That sounds to me like a tuning will be incoporated.

V/R

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Old 07-12-2013, 11:29 AM
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I see; but the Triax is sealed, so it's not tuning in the sense of adjusting a resonant frequency.

I agree with tuning being a set an forget thing, but when buying the sub, it can be an interesting feature when you don't know what you prefer in the first hand. Since I really liked the sound of my sealed sub, I was anxious upgrading to ported ones; knowing that I could lower the tunes or seal the subs if needed was very reassuring before proceeding with the purchase. Well it turns out that the first minutes using the subs with the 16 Hz tune alleviated all my fears and I have no intention to ever seal those, and probably not even use them with the "native" 20 Hz tune.

As for complexity and cost, I guess there is some. But my gut feeling is, if a sub design calls for more than one port anyway, and it's equipped with a DSP, then being able to plug one port and include a high-pass filter in the DSP is certainly not the hardest problem a sub manufacturer faces. I guess if Tom V is not crazy about it, it may be that I'm totally wrong about that though biggrin.gif

I see the Triax is the first in the Prism family. Anyone waiting for the Pentax? biggrin.gif

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Old 07-12-2013, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by scorpionrm View Post

The Triax has two user selectable DSP programs for optimization in almost any room size. That sounds to me like a tuning will be incoporated.
Interesting. That is tuning for a sealed sub. It just has to be done electronically.
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:40 AM
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I only mention it because I noted that "There is no variable tuning on PSA subs" was said. The DPS does curve matching to compensate for driver variations. I'm no SME but plugs are used to control roll off which does the same thing as ccontroling the curve.

V/R

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Old 07-12-2013, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

There is no variable tuning on PSA subs...imo there is no need. I am sure if Tom thought it was a important feature it would of been considered. Aside from what a few say, from what I see most folks run thier subs in max extension mode, so why have two other modes if you are not going to use them anway? The XV subs are tuned for 18hz and they extend to 15hz easily. The pb+ and the xv15 have around the same output @ 16-30hz and the xv15 has 2-3db more midbass output 40-80hz...Tom and I actually just discussed this via email 2 weeks ago.

In what numbers say you base this fact?

I do not see that the XV15 exceed PB12 + dsp ...
At least in these numbers, maybe I'm missing something?
How to calculate the average of both subwoofers?

PB12+ dsp for Audioholics:



XV15 for data-bass:

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Old 07-12-2013, 11:55 AM
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In part, the review is performed by different people.
Maybe would be great to ask "Ricci" that tests one PB12 + dsp (for numbers this ultra 3dB from behind and above the XV15 3dB). So we could find out.
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Old 07-12-2013, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Lecter83 View Post

In what numbers say you base this fact?

I do not see that the XV15 exceed PB12 + dsp ...
At least in these numbers, maybe I'm missing something?
How to calculate the average of both subwoofers?

PB12+ dsp for Audioholics:



XV15 for data-bass:


you need to add 1.5 db across the xv15 numbers because the mic was not placed in front of the driver which makes a difference for open ground plane testing. ...ricci is the one that stated this. He also stated it it could be up to 4db difference up around 80hz. Also I am just posting what Tom told me...Lets not turn this into another debate, I honestly would hope the pb12+ would have more out put for the price difference. Also the pb12+ is more feature rich with built in eq, variable tuning, gloss black finish...etc. Not trying to knock it.

also those numbers you posted are not figured correctly...going from 1m peak to 2m rms you must subtract 9db. this is a prime example why its important to get as many subs as possible tested by ricci @ data-bass so there is good data to compare. Most of the data out there other than data-bass and illka is skewed imo...
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Old 07-12-2013, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

FWIW, adding 1.5dB to Josh's figures and using simple averaging only, the PB12+ would appear to have a 1.67dB advantage in the 20-32Hz band and a 1.53dB disadvantage in the 40-63Hz band. Fairly comparable in terms of total raw output either way on the face of it though the PB12's max output is a bit more linear.

And 100% sure about cleaner refers thd. This says how good it this built the 12 "of SVS, dsp etc. For the price do not see it expensive.

Since the XV15 lluego the performance is also good, but encompasses other users.
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:07 PM
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Here is a email from Tom...I am not going to argue as it does not really matter much to me.


"The CEA-2010 output numbers for the PB12+ are 108.03 (20-31hz) , 113.48(40-63hz, and 111.17 (20-63hz).

The XV15 is 108.1, 116.6, 113.3

So the XV15 has about the same output in the deepest bass and more in the mid and upper bass. The extension is about the same(slight edge to the XV15) with the pb12+ in 20hz mode. You can get a *little* deeper extension from the PB12+ in 16hz mode but then you will trade off a couple dB of output so you can either say they both have about the same extension/output.....OR.....the pb12+ extends a bit deeper but has less output. In terms of sound quality I personally consider the big three metrics to be "group delay, impulse response, and stored ringing. The XV15 will measure as good or better in all three as they are largely derived from the frequency response".
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Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

Also FWIW since I just saw this edit, the numbers are from AH when Paul Appolino did the testing (his numbers on the FV15HP tied well with Josh's, but obviously the VTF15H created a bit of a storm). The 2m GP numbers aren't just -9dB versus the 1m peak as there were some product changes between the time of the review and when the they decided to do a conversion table, and a note was included in the article. No retest was done though to my knowledge.

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Old 07-12-2013, 01:07 PM
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FWIW, port plugs do a lot more than control the curve. They fundamentally alter the characteristics of the enclosure and the performance profile of a subwoofer. There may be some similarities between this process and signal shaping via DSP, but there is also a world of difference, hence the statement that no PSA subs are variable tune.
your right the word tune has always been assosiated with proted boxes way before digital signal processesing was ever invented. My bad. hope we can still be friends:D

V/R

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Old 07-12-2013, 01:13 PM
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No problem smile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gif
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No worries, just trying to fill in potential blanks. The performance differential isn't exactly high on my list of concerns either smile.gif
Why not biggrin.gif

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Old 07-12-2013, 01:25 PM
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Why not biggrin.gif
Especialy since I like killing dogs with snowballs my own dam self. Happy hunting my friend.cool.gif

V/R

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Old 07-12-2013, 01:40 PM
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I've been watching the XS30 and truly is a subwoofer that attracts me.

The question goes to Vodhanel, how much would cost one XS30 sent to Spain in € uros? Maybe in a future add this piece, along with my PB12 +.
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Old 07-12-2013, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

FWIW, port plugs do a lot more than control the curve. They fundamentally alter the characteristics of the enclosure and the performance profile of a subwoofer. There may be some similarities between this process and signal shaping via DSP, but there is also a world of difference, hence the statement that no PSA subs are variable tune.

Indeed. It is worth adding that DSP can do a lot (protect the driver, correct the in-room FR, or even provide a flat FR at non-max output), but one thing it cannot do is increase the output of the sub past its max output profile. As far as I know, the DSP can only subtract from the max output profile. At lower levels, it can change the relative weight of the frequencies, but it cannot redistribute "reserve output" (such a thing does not exist) from one frequency to the other.
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

you need to add 1.5 db across the xv15 numbers because the mic was not placed in front of the driver which makes a difference for open ground plane testing. ...ricci is the one that stated this.

Yeah, the measurement process becomes tricky with down-firing and opposed-driver subs. Wouldn't there be an advantage, for comparison purposes, to measure further from the sub? I bet the sub geometry would matter much less if the measurements were, say, at 10 m from the sub's center of mass or something like this. Would the lower signal lead to significantly degraded measurements?
Quote:
also those numbers you posted are not figured correctly...going from 1m peak to 2m rms you must subtract 9db. this is a prime example why its important to get as many subs as possible tested by ricci @ data-bass so there is good data to compare. Most of the data out there other than data-bass and illka is skewed imo...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

Also FWIW since I just saw this edit, the numbers are from AH when Paul Appolino did the testing (his numbers on the FV15HP tied well with Josh's, but obviously the VTF15H created a bit of a storm). The 2m GP numbers aren't just -9dB versus the 1m peak as there were some product changes between the time of the review and when the they decided to do a conversion table, and a note was included in the article. No retest was done though to my knowledge.

Exactly -- the conversion table subtracts 9dB for doubling the distance and going RMS, but adds 1.5 dB because the DSP version has a 1.5-2.0dB advantage over the tested version. Here's a link to the measurements section of the review.

In any case, I would like the Plus tested too as I own it but it would be a bit of a wasted effort considering there is little debate about what the exact numbers are. In any case, the XV15 is almost half the price so there is little doubt that it's an incredible value, whether it's just below or just above the Plus in CEA testing. At least the pricing on the PC12-Plus is a bit more accessible.

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Originally Posted by Lecter83 View Post

I've been watching the XS30 and truly is a subwoofer that attracts me.

The question goes to Vodhanel, how much would cost one XS30 sent to Spain in € uros? Maybe in a future add this piece, along with my PB12 +.

Ported and sealed combo.........interesting!

wink.gif
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Old 07-12-2013, 02:48 PM
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Indeed. It is worth adding that DSP can do a lot (protect the driver, correct the in-room FR, or even provide a flat FR at non-max output), but one thing it cannot do is increase the output of the sub past its max output profile. As far as I know, the DSP can only subtract from the max output profile. At lower levels, it can change the relative weight of the frequencies, but it cannot redistribute "reserve output" (such a thing does not exist) from one frequency to the other.
Yeah, the measurement process becomes tricky with down-firing and opposed-driver subs. Wouldn't there be an advantage, for comparison purposes, to measure further from the sub? I bet the sub geometry would matter much less if the measurements were, say, at 10 m from the sub's center of mass or something like this. Would the lower signal lead to significantly degraded measurements?

Exactly -- the conversion table subtracts 9dB for doubling the distance and going RMS, but adds 1.5 dB because the DSP version has a 1.5-2.0dB advantage over the tested version. Here's a link to the measurements section of the review.

In any case, I would like the Plus tested too as I own it but it would be a bit of a wasted effort considering there is little debate about what the exact numbers are. In any case, the XV15 is almost half the price so there is little doubt that it's an incredible value, whether it's just below or just above the Plus in CEA testing. At least the pricing on the PC12-Plus is a bit more accessible.
ahh I missed the dsp part .

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Old 07-12-2013, 02:50 PM
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Ported and sealed combo.........interesting!

wink.gif

Yes, it is certainly possible and not hard (if you know all the possibilities of placement and reply to your room).

The XS30 serious black oak finish, so would make playing with other speakers and subwoofer. I still do not buy you, but it is possible that in the future if you do.
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Old 07-12-2013, 02:55 PM
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Can you fit two XS30s in a hatchback VW Golf? confused.gifrolleyes.giftongue.gif

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Old 07-12-2013, 03:13 PM
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Yes, it is certainly possible and not hard (if you know all the possibilities of placement and reply to your room).

The XS30 serious black oak finish, so would make playing with other speakers and subwoofer. I still do not buy you, but it is possible that in the future if you do.

Hopefully, I should be able to have first hand experience in just a couple of weeks. Yes, the black oak finish is really nice. But, I pulled the trigger on the cherry color to have a better match.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)


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Can you fit two XS30s in a hatchback VW Golf? confused.gifrolleyes.giftongue.gif

Of course, you just need one of this:

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
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Old 07-12-2013, 05:00 PM
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Well to be totally honest I'm not sure either. I guess I'm thinking about Canadian consumer protection laws. They can't possibly apply when you purchase a good out of the country. Buying cheap HDMI cables from Monoprice is one thing, but a 1k$+ sub is another entirely. Yet thinking about it... I trust PSA's honesty much more than I trust the effectiveness of consumer protection laws.

Exactly. After reading here about PSA's outstanding customer service, and then experiencing that dedication first-hand through many back-and-forth emails with Tom prior to my purchase, I had no qualms about dealing with PSA.

Chronic masticator.
Gear: Speakers (Paradigm Reference Studio Series): 40 v4 (front L/R), CC-690 v4 (centre), 20 v4 (surround L/R). PSA XS30 (subwoofer).
Denon AVR-X4000, Emotiva XPA-5, Samsung PN64F8500 (64" plasma), DarbeeVision Darblet DVP5000, PS4, PS3, Sony BDP-S6200,
Apple TV (3rd gen.), Harmony One, Sennheiser RS180
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Denon Avr 3313ci Receiver , Denon Avr 4520ci Receiver , Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver , Power Sound Audio , Power Sound Audio Triax , Room Equilizer Wizard Rew , v1500 , V3600i , Velodyne Sms 1 In Room Bass Correction Kit With Included Microphone , Xs30 , Xv15
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