Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 172 - AVS Forum
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post #5131 of 13892 Old 08-22-2013, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

I just read in another thread that my receiver, (pioneer elite sc71) does not have an eq for the subs. mad.gif Is this a bad thing I mean do I need that feature and if so can I add some device to my setup to eq the subs without having to change my receiver?
Look into getting a Anti Mode 8033

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post #5132 of 13892 Old 08-22-2013, 08:36 AM
 
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Or a mini-DSP.
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post #5133 of 13892 Old 08-22-2013, 08:55 AM
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Thanks ima look those up rite now. I figure while I wait on the triax I might as well see if theres something worth getting to eq it better.

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post #5134 of 13892 Old 08-22-2013, 09:06 AM
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Man those look like theyd be worth getting to tweak my subs, awesome ima order one this week!

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post #5135 of 13892 Old 08-22-2013, 09:22 AM
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Is there any point in using a miniDSP with an Anti-mode? Or just one or the other?
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post #5136 of 13892 Old 08-22-2013, 09:32 AM
 
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FWIW, I have the Anti-Mode, 8033S II. It's an auto push-n-play unit. Run Anti-Mode and then MCACC.

In the case of the mini-DSP, that's a hands on tweak-it-yourself jewel. Very nice if you're willing to hand tweak and much less expensive. I can't order a mini-DSP because their website doesn't like my CC company and my CC company says, "Everything is fine."

Just saying, when coupled with Audyssey and dialed in with REW, I'm happy with Anti-Mode, 8033S II but I'm quite sure I'd be happier if I was able to install and play with a mini-DSP.

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post #5137 of 13892 Old 08-22-2013, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Is there any point in using a miniDSP with an Anti-mode? Or just one or the other?

no not really...anti-mode is a automatic calibration device that has no manual adjustability. The mini-dsp has manual and automatic calibration, seperate delay, mutiple filters, multiple cross overs, cheaper, and can eq 4 subs independently. However if you have the room for multiple subs then go that route instead of a eq device. 4 subs properly placed can effectively smooth all modes and nulls. I am much happier with 3 xv15's with no eq opposed to 2 xv15's eq'd flat with a mini dsp. I still have a +/-5db response with 12-15db more headroom opposed to duals with the mini and a +/-2db response. I still plan on using my mini, just have not had any time to mess with it and the response is now good enough to enjoy anyway.

On a side note before you even consider any of the above, get rew and mic and see how your response is first. if you do not have any major peaks or nulls than a eq device such as a mini may be fine for some final adjustments. Not all rooms are the same so you wont know what you need until you measure.
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post #5138 of 13892 Old 08-22-2013, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

FWIW, I have the Anti-Mode, 8033S II. It's an auto push-n-play unit. Run Anti-Mode and then MCACC.

In the case of the mini-DSP, that's a hands on tweak-it-yourself jewel. Very nice if you're willing to hand tweak and much less expensive. I can't order a mini-DSP because their website doesn't like my CC company and my CC company says, "Everything is fine."

Just saying, when coupled with Audyssey and dialed in with REW, I'm happy with Anti-Mode, 8033S II but I'm quite sure I'd be happier if I was able to install and play with a mini-DSP.

(happiness is a flat graph.)

(Disclaimer: as always, YMMV)

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Does this gel well with Audyssey? I have XT32 platinum, I don't even think I would need this with my subs?

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post #5139 of 13892 Old 08-22-2013, 09:54 AM
 
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My understanding, XT32 won't benefit with the addition of the Anti-Mode as the XT32 system is "that" good but if there are any niggles in your graph, again, my understanding, your system "will" benefit with the addition of a mini-DSP.

Basically, the Anti-Mode takes the "naked" room response and corrects it (goes to flat) to the best of it's ability. The corrected room response is then read by Audyssey and readjusted to suit Audyssey which reports it's finding to the AVR which then becomes the final arbiter of how to set things.

In the case of the mini-DSP, it's the opposite, XT32 measures and reports the measurements to the AVR, which makes all the necessary changes......then the mini-DSP comes in and the user tweaks the output to what REW shows to be true and accurate. My understanding, the mini-DSP was created to compliment REW and the two can work automatically together.

(I'll encourage users of the mini-DSP to weight in and correct any errors and omissions)

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post #5140 of 13892 Old 08-22-2013, 10:29 AM
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Yeah the MiniDSP is all manual -- you can integrate it with REW but it doesn't take any measurement by itself. Thus the much cheaper price than the Antimode, which is fully automatic.

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post #5141 of 13892 Old 08-22-2013, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neutro View Post

Yeah the MiniDSP is all manual -- you can integrate it with REW but it doesn't take any measurement by itself. Thus the much cheaper price than the Antimode, which is fully automatic.

It is all manual but you can plug a rew graph into the mini and it will automatically set up the correct filters to flatten the response...that is what I meant when I said auto calibration. I guess a better term for it would be semi-auto.
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post #5142 of 13892 Old 08-22-2013, 11:13 AM
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I just talked to Tom and theyre gonna have an update in the next couple days, if everything goes as planned the Triaxs will be shipped out by end of next week. Also theyll be making another batch real soon after that, maybe 2 or 3 weeks after.

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post #5143 of 13892 Old 08-22-2013, 11:18 AM
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So how many subs can be hooked up to the antimode 8033? I couldnt tell. Im thinking about getting it, how does this help or not help if I got it for when I have a tech come and calibrate everything? Would he be able to tweak everything with his equip or will buying a dsp, ect help him more?

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post #5144 of 13892 Old 08-22-2013, 11:37 AM
 
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Using "Y's" or splitters, I have three subs hooked up to our Anti-Mode. With the addition of an additional "Y," without hesitation, I would comfortably be able to hook up a fourth subwoofer.

As to the question, regarding how many? I would guess it will depend on how much signal strength one has running to either of the two Anti-Mode inputs. My understanding, Anti-Mode reads each of the two (stereo) outputs and then adjusts the time domain (phase) accordingly. One would need to independently dial the phase in for the interconnected pair so as to eliminate conflict between the two subs connected to the single IN/OUT of the Anti-Mode and then let Anti-Mode work out the difference between the phase of the separate IN/OUT channels.

(below: my cheap effort at creating a graphic)

...........S1
.....................>.......... REW/hand combined phase
.......... S2
....................................................................................> both channels/Anti-Mode combined phase
.......... S3
.....................>.......... REW/hand combined phase
.......... S4

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post #5145 of 13892 Old 08-22-2013, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Using "Y's" or splitters, I have three subs hooked up to our Anti-Mode. With the addition of an additional "Y," without hesitation, I would comfortably be able to hook up a fourth subwoofer.

As to the question, regarding how many? I would guess it will depend on how much signal strength one has running to either of the two Anti-Mode inputs. My understanding, Anti-Mode reads each of the two (stereo) outputs and then adjusts the time domain (phase) accordingly. One would need to independently dial the phase in for the interconnected pair so as to eliminate conflict between the two subs connected to the single IN/OUT of the Anti-Mode and then let Anti-Mode work out the difference between the phase of the separate IN/OUT channels.

(below: my cheap effort at creating a graphic)

...........S1
.....................>.......... REW/hand combined phase
.......... S2
....................................................................................> both channels/Anti-Mode combined phase
.......... S3
.....................>.......... REW/hand combined phase
.......... S4

-

Thanks beeman, looks like ill be getting one!
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post #5146 of 13892 Old 08-22-2013, 12:09 PM
 
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post #5147 of 13892 Old 08-22-2013, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

It is all manual but you can plug a rew graph into the mini and it will automatically set up the correct filters to flatten the response...that is what I meant when I said auto calibration. I guess a better term for it would be semi-auto.

I didn't even knew that. I thought you'd have to generate the biquad parameters inside REW and upload the biquad file to the MiniDSP.

Are you sure it generates correction filters? Because one thing I know it does is take a room measurement, and show you the effect of the filters you have programmed on that measurement. This is not exactly the same as generating the correction filters.

In any way, you need a measurement mic and preferably REW, whereas the Antimode is all automated / integrated in the same fashion as Audyssey, MCACC or YPAO.

Also I think the Antimode Dual Core, which is (even) much more expensive, can independently take care of two subs in the same fashion as Audyssey SubEQ HT. However, for the price of the Dual Core (around $1k), I think you should set the money aside for a receiver with MultEQ XT32 and SubEQ HT.

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post #5148 of 13892 Old 08-22-2013, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by neutro View Post

I didn't even knew that. I thought you'd have to generate the biquad parameters inside REW and upload the biquad file to the MiniDSP.

Are you sure it generates correction filters? Because one thing I know it does is take a room measurement, and show you the effect of the filters you have programmed on that measurement. This is not exactly the same as generating the correction filters.

In any way, you need a measurement mic and preferably REW, whereas the Antimode is all automated / integrated in the same fashion as Audyssey, MCACC or YPAO.

Also I think the Antimode Dual Core, which is (even) much more expensive, can independently take care of two subs in the same fashion as Audyssey SubEQ HT. However, for the price of the Dual Core (around $1k), I think you should set the money aside for a receiver with MultEQ XT32 and SubEQ HT.

The receiver i got has mcacc but doesnt eq the subs and i didnt realize that until now so im trying to see a simple way of doing it using the same receiver. Its a pioneer elite sc71. Im going to intregate 2 subs so ill be running a 5.2 setup and i wanna make sure the subs are to full potential, also this is my first ht setup so im pretty new to all this but so far i like what ive got until i see other things out there that are better eek.gif

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post #5149 of 13892 Old 08-22-2013, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

The receiver i got has mcacc but doesnt eq the subs and i didnt realize that until now so im trying to see a simple way of doing it using the same receiver. Its a pioneer elite sc71. Im going to intregate 2 subs so ill be running a 5.2 setup and i wanna make sure the subs are to full potential, also this is my first ht setup so im pretty new to all this but so far i like what ive got until i see other things out there that are better eek.gif

I too got dual subs and until recently I was using a Pio 1020 -- basically the same as the Elite VSX-30. I too was a bit miffled that MCACC doesn't bother with the subs. However Advanced MCACC does an okay job with the other speakers (in my room, the differences with respect to MultEQ XT32 are small). EQing the subs however does bring very noticeable changes to the table IMHO.

With a Pioneer receiver, the easiest way to do it would be with an automated solution, such as the discontinued Velodyne SMS-1 and SVS AS-EQ1, and the Antimode products. Of course these solutions are the most expensive. Switching to a receiver equipped with Audyssey MultEQ XT or XT32 is also an option, given the price of these devices. Note that the SVS AS-EQ1 actually uses Audyssey MultEQ XT32.

Note that dual subs can be EQed as a pair without any problem. If the subs are not equidistant to the listening position, you can adjust their phase (and levels) first, and then simply treat them as a single sub. Independent phase / distance and level adjustments for dual subs is relatively easy manually, but can be automated in more premium products (Audyssey SubEQ HT-equipped receivers, the aforementioned Antimode 2.0 Dual Core).

The budget solution for EQing subs (single or duals) traditionally was the Behringer DSP1124P "Feedback Destroyer", aka "BFD". This is a relatively cheap piece of equipment (circa $100) that is not meant for home theater usage but can do the job. There are extensive howtos on how to use the BFD as a sub equalizer. However, for marginally more, you can purchase the MiniDSP 2x4, which can basically do the same in a much more user-friendly environment. Both the BFD and MiniDSP, however, require the user to manually set correction filters. The easiest way to generate those is to take a measurement of the frequency response with REW (REW is free, but this requires purchasing a mic and/or SPL meter, also circa $100). REW is able to generate the correction parameters for both the BFD and the MiniDSP, and can directly upload those.

In particular, the MiniDSP can independently adjust distance/delay (and levels) for all its outputs, so it's relatively easy to adjust those for dual subs, given a mean to measure the results.

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post #5150 of 13892 Old 08-22-2013, 01:58 PM
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FWIW I have a PIO as well. I was looking for the simplest option to eq my subs after I realized I'd need to do so.

The first thing Tom said was not to use an automated solution like the anti-mode.

Long story short I ended up with the mini-dsp. You can enter filters yourself, or you can measure with REW and have REW generate the filters, then tweak either in REW before you export or just enter them manually into the mini-dsp and tweak them there.

It's hard to import the REW file and then tweak in the mini because at that point you're in advanced mode and stuck generating biquad files.

The hardest part I had (aside from rolleyes.gif hooking it up) was shaping the target graph in REW. It wasn't hard per say, it was just trial and error. I still don't be any means have it down, but I did spit out a couple good graphs from REW into the mini-dsp.

It's the second easiest option I found besides a manual like the RANE PE -17 or the like, which I also tried but had a buzz I couldn't get rid of. I'm actually glad it didn't work out because the auto eq in REW is very nice.

The fact they can't include a simple power supply with the mini-dsp is just dumb IMO. But whatever.......

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post #5151 of 13892 Old 08-22-2013, 02:10 PM
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The first thing Tom said was not to use an automated solution like the anti-mode.

Did he give you a reason for that? Not that I disagree per se, but I'd be interested to know more.

Right now, I'm EQing relatively flat using Audyssey MultEQ XT32, and I'm adding a bit of oomph (in the form of a single low-pass shelf biquad filter as a gentle house curve) using the Mini-DSP afterwards, and I'd say the results are great overall, but knowing I can try to better Audyssey's results with the Mini-DSP is nice.
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It's the second easiest option I found besides a manual like the RANE PE -17 or the like, which I also tried but had a buzz I couldn't get rid of. I'm actually glad it didn't work out because the auto eq in REW is very nice.

The BFD also generates a buzz -- this is typically because processors acting on line-level signals introduce ground loops pre-amplification. The fix can be as simple as a cheater plug, but of course, this is not recommended rolleyes.gif Though in the end I was quite glad the MiniDSP did not introduce any buzz or hum.
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The fact they can't include a simple power supply with the mini-dsp is just dumb IMO. But whatever.......

Indeed! I think they did that in order to not have to conform to electrical certifications in a bunch of different countries. You can power it using the USB port though. In the end, I pillaged a wall-wart-type charger in my old electronics bins, cut the connector and stuck the bare wires in the screw holes. It works well, but you have to be sure about polarity. Using the wrong polarity will simply destroy the MiniDSP tongue.gif

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post #5152 of 13892 Old 08-22-2013, 02:18 PM
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He did not say why, but I would imagine it's for the same reason some people in this thread are asking about using the mini dsp combined with anti-mode....... why leave it up to automation when you can have complete control. Automation isn't always perfect.......

My rane had no ground plug. But I did everything, including talking to rane tech support who said in the end it's a piece of pro audio equipment that's not made for a home audio setup.

I ended up using an extra iPad charger we had laying around. Seems to work just fine. It's the point you know......

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post #5153 of 13892 Old 08-22-2013, 02:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by neutro View Post

The easiest way to generate those is to take a measurement of the frequency response with REW (REW is free, but this requires purchasing a mic and/or SPL meter, also circa $100). REW is able to generate the correction parameters for both the BFD and the MiniDSP, and can directly upload those.

I want a "hooker" system. confused.gif

One that will hook me up and then go away.

Instead, I ended up married to the darn thing.

John Cougar Mellencamp: "I Need a Lover"

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post #5154 of 13892 Old 08-22-2013, 03:01 PM
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My rane had no ground plug. But I did everything, including talking to rane tech support who said in the end it's a piece of pro audio equipment that's not made for a home audio setup.
I bought a BFD that wound up in a box of discarded cables that finally wound up in a dumpster. biggrin.gif

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post #5155 of 13892 Old 08-22-2013, 03:06 PM
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He did not say why, but I would imagine it's for the same reason some people in this thread are asking about using the mini dsp combined with anti-mode....... why leave it up to automation when you can have complete control. Automation isn't always perfect.......

My rane had no ground plug. But I did everything, including talking to rane tech support who said in the end it's a piece of pro audio equipment that's not made for a home audio setup.

I ended up using an extra iPad charger we had laying around. Seems to work just fine. It's the point you know......


Good advice guys, so then since I dont know how to manually tweak my subs then could I just buy a mini dsp and when I have a pro come over to cal my system could I just then have him manually use the mini dsp i buy along with his other calibrations?

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post #5156 of 13892 Old 08-22-2013, 03:06 PM
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I love/hate those boxes.

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post #5157 of 13892 Old 08-22-2013, 03:15 PM
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Finally turned on the HT for the first time in a month or so for the Iron Man 3 Blu-Ray. Still able to trip the !#%#! arc fault breaker with 2 XV30's /sigh. Ah well, electrician time.

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post #5158 of 13892 Old 08-22-2013, 03:34 PM
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Good advice guys, so then since I dont know how to manually tweak my subs then could I just buy a mini dsp and when I have a pro come over to cal my system could I just then have him manually use the mini dsp i buy along with his other calibrations?

Shouldn't be and issue if your guy is competent. There is simple mode where you just enter in the filters, frequencies, and q.
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Finally turned on the HT for the first time in a month or so for the Iron Man 3 Blu-Ray. Still able to trip the !#%#! arc fault breaker with 2 XV30's /sigh. Ah well, electrician time.

Watch a couple you tube videos on how to swap a breaker. Turn main power off and do it. Its very very simple.

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post #5159 of 13892 Old 08-22-2013, 03:35 PM
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How is iron man 3?

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post #5160 of 13892 Old 08-22-2013, 04:00 PM
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How is iron man 3?

Im a movie freak and ill tell ya what I thought. Overall it was pretty good and even though it had some parts that drug on it has some good humor and action packed events. The main thing I didnt like though is that the villian at the end was some douche bag he wasnt bad ass like bane in batman, be had some lame powers and looked weak. Other than that its worth watching if your out of movies to watch for the time being.

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