Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 14327 Old 11-30-2012, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

That never happens.

I know it has in my case. Guess we just have different viewpoints when it comes to isolators.

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post #542 of 14327 Old 11-30-2012, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by UT-Driven View Post

It is currently at around 2 o'clock with +8 on the sub channel and it sounds a little mellow still.

Try 3 o'clock instead (that's where mine is). Tom has stated many times that the gain is more linear then on some other subs, so what might seem high for another brand would be considered normal for a PSA amp.

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post #543 of 14327 Old 11-30-2012, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Try 3 o'clock instead (that's where mine is). Tom has stated many times that the gain is more linear then on some other subs, so what might seem high for another brand would be considered normal for a PSA amp.

Thanks, I will go with that!

Doug
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post #544 of 14327 Old 11-30-2012, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by UT-Driven View Post

It is currently at around 2 o'clock with +8 on the sub channel and it sounds a little mellow still. Max is around 5-6 o'clock? I have room to boost it a little more?
No SPL meter either. I should be able to set it to where it sounds right to me as long as I am not overdriving anything.
Thanks,
Doug


Hi UT-Driven,

Go ahead and increase the gain on the subwoofer until you reach desired output levels. Our gain controls are less sensitive than many other manufacturers.

The sensitivity of the "gain" control on subwoofer can also vary greatly. With some, 90% of your actual "gain control" is encountered between the minimal setting and the control's midway point(often referred to as the "12 oclock position). With a different subwoofer, you may literally need to set the gain control at the 90% position(say---3 oclock) to receive the same effect.(90% of the signal amplification)

Also remember that the gain control is not a volume control. By this I mean you can literally have the gain control to its max setting on a subwoofer and during the calibration sequence (75dB from the sub) the internally amplification in the subwoofer will very likely only be producing a fraction of one watt in most room environments.

Some say "I'm barely using 1/4 of my subwoofer power because I have my gain control set at 25%. That is totally inaccurate. All the gain control does is level match(amplify the voltage) the output of your receiver to the input stage on the subwoofer amplifier to aid you in properly calibrating the output of the sub to the rest of your speakers.

I would just avoid the extremes of any control. Meaning, don't have the subwoofer's gain control set so high that the receiver's subwoofer level control needs to be at minimum(say....-10 on a ..."-10 to +10" scale) for example.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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post #545 of 14327 Old 11-30-2012, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Hi UT-Driven,
Go ahead and increase the gain on the subwoofer until you reach desired output levels. Our gain controls are less sensitive than many other manufacturers.
The sensitivity of the "gain" control on subwoofer can also vary greatly. With some, 90% of your actual "gain control" is encountered between the minimal setting and the control's midway point(often referred to as the "12 oclock position). With a different subwoofer, you may literally need to set the gain control at the 90% position(say---3 oclock) to receive the same effect.(90% of the signal amplification)
Also remember that the gain control is not a volume control. By this I mean you can literally have the gain control to its max setting on a subwoofer and during the calibration sequence (75dB from the sub) the internally amplification in the subwoofer will very likely only be producing a fraction of one watt in most room environments.
Some say "I'm barely using 1/4 of my subwoofer power because I have my gain control set at 25%. That is totally inaccurate. All the gain control does is level match(amplify the voltage) the output of your receiver to the input stage on the subwoofer amplifier to aid you in properly calibrating the output of the sub to the rest of your speakers.
I would just avoid the extremes of any control. Meaning, don't have the subwoofer's gain control set so high that the receiver's subwoofer level control needs to be at minimum(say....-10 on a ..."-10 to +10" scale) for example.
Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Thanks Tom. I'm loving the new subwoofer.

Doug
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post #546 of 14327 Old 11-30-2012, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UT-Driven View Post

I looked and it is an Energy ES-12. It doesn't look like it was a bad sub after all. 150 W RMS, 600 W Peak if I read correctly.
I am seeing less output from the new XS15 than I did unless I pretty much turn the gain all the way up. The new sub is definitely going deeper. I have a Pioneer SC-27 and I boosted the SW level to +8 and it is a little better. I have not ran the MCACC? as I don't know where the microphone is. Is it hard on the sub if I increase the gain almost all the way if it is not really booming or playing very loud?
The XS15 is in the same place that the Energy sub was, near 1 wall and about 3 feet from the pseudo corner (bay window junction). I flat out don't have placement flexibility. I heard about the sub crawl but as I mentioned, it wouldn't help as my placement choices are non-existent.
I have a Velodyne Mini-Vee as well in another room and I have noticed lower than expected output too. I guess that I just don't know sub setups very well.
I don't go too loud on the volume. Music is typically at around -25db on the SC-27.
Doug

I get confused when I hear some of you say your SW level is at particular #. After running Audyssey my XV-15 level was at a -5, which as I understand it is a little hot because you want that # calibrated closer to 0. If I wanted to increase the gain or the output in the receiver, would I be changing that -5 # or am I confusing this with something different. If this is the one I would change, would I start going closer to a positive # to get more gain? Does this make sense? Also, what effect would this have on Auddysey calibration.

By the way, I have my XV-15 set in between 2-3 o'clock. There was a major difference for me from the 12 o'clock position to the current one.
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post #547 of 14327 Old 11-30-2012, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walke108 View Post

I get confused when I hear some of you say your SW level is at particular #. After running Audyssey my XV-15 level was at a -5, which as I understand it is a little hot because you want that # calibrated closer to 0. If I wanted to increase the gain or the output in the receiver, would I be changing that -5 # or am I confusing this with something different. If this is the one I would change, would I start going closer to a positive # to get more gain? Does this make sense? Also, what effect would this have on Auddysey calibration.

By the way, I have my XV-15 set in between 2-3 o'clock. There was a major difference for me from the 12 o'clock position to the current one.

With your XV15's gain set at 3 o'clock(ish) I would suggest you make any further adjustments using the output from the receiver.

BTW; -5dB is not "hot", if anything it's the opposite. Positive numbers -- like +5dB -- are considered hot, so you aren't really over-driving the XV15's amp at all. To increase the amount of bass you're hearing you can adjust the output stage of your receiver. Bring it to 0dB and see how it sounds to you.

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post #548 of 14327 Old 11-30-2012, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

That never happens. The only way it could is if the panels of the enclosure were so flexible that it would render the sub unusable. Sub panels will vibrate to some extent, but that vibration is in the midrange, typically around 500Hz, and the extent of the panel flex is on the order of 1/10 of a millimeter, tops.
If the Gramma was effective then that's exactly what you experienced.

Thanks Bill, for a while I thought I was going mad, but wait I like being on the edge:D

j_nordi
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post #549 of 14327 Old 11-30-2012, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

I know it has in my case. Guess we just have different viewpoints when it comes to isolators.
More likely different testing criteria to identify what actually occurs. In my line of work I can't be less than precise.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
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post #550 of 14327 Old 12-01-2012, 03:07 AM
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

With your XV15's gain set at 3 o'clock(ish) I would suggest you make any further adjustments using the output from the receiver.
BTW; -5dB is not "hot", if anything it's the opposite. Positive numbers -- like +5dB -- are considered hot, so you aren't really over-driving the XV15's amp at all. To increase the amount of bass you're hearing you can adjust the output stage of your receiver. Bring it to 0dB and see how it sounds to you.

Since Audy set the sub level to -5 doesn't that mean it was hot so to compensate it lowered it? If it was "cold" it would boost right? And if he changed it to -2 than he would technically be running it 3db hot? Ahh headache lol

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #551 of 14327 Old 12-01-2012, 05:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Since Audy set the sub level to -5 doesn't that mean it was hot so to compensate it lowered it? If it was "cold" it would boost right? And if he changed it to -2 than he would technically be running it 3db hot? Ahh headache lol

I think the confusion is that there are two settings one can simultaneously talk about and not be considered wrong. The first setting is the gain setting knob on the subwoofer. A good starting point is setting the dial at two of the ten possible choices on the subwoofer gain dial. In our case that works out to a position of about eight O'clock. I get confused as nobody tells me if it's A.M. or P.M., so as a morning person, I position the dial at 8:00 O'clock A.M., and of course, that's PST or -8 GMT. tongue.gif

......................rolleyes.gif

Balance each subwoofer to about 66dB @ a measured 1m sound meter reading distance with the sound meter microphone pointed directly at the subwoofer driver. If using a pair of subs, the combined adjusted output of the two subs should roughly translate into 70dB at main listening position. That's why the need of measured adjustments as one's listening position might be nine feet, or fifteen feet from a pair of asymmetrically placed subwoofers and it's all about the main listening position and if one is sitting in a sealed, 2,500^3 theater room or a 3,500^3 living room that's open to the entryway and kitchen. Doing what I suggest, hopefully takes all these variables into consideration. eek.gif

The second number is the gain set internally by the AVR, based on the readings it receives from Audyssey or the AVR's provided room analyzer program. In our case, Audyssey (or the AVR, however one wishes to characterize the interaction), dials the internal AVR sub gain down, -9.5. You can interpret that to mean, overall, our sub's gain setting is running hot but the AVR provided sub gain, being set "below" zero, is running cold. Hence the confusion of "Hot-n-Cold" as one needs to know which gain setting is being spoken about and is it being spoken of in the context of being a dialed in system? Each person's listening room's gain is going be different (sealed vs open), hence why everybody gets different reported AVR settings. As long as the reading is somewhere between the two plus/minus extremes, you're good. Nine is better than twelve so one knows they're off the bumpers and as long as the settings are off the extremes, six is not better than nine as it's all good. The point, there is no internal perfect. Like a vehicle front end alignment, there are specs and as long as within specs, everybody is good to go. One is always welcome to be as anal regarding this issue as they wish. As the saying goes: "Knock yourself out."

First things first, if running one sub, two subs or more subs, before running the room analyzer, based on realtime, main listening position measurements, one must hand dial in the combined subwoofer SPL using a handheld sound meter and the subs gain control so their combined output is equal to 70dB. My understanding, the final setting of all the combined sub output, whether one or a dozen subs, should be 70dB at listening position. This is to maintain headroom capability. And anybody who wants can correct any errors or admissions in my above.

Now that the subs have been dialed in, run and set the room analyzer program. Once done, go back into the AVR and check the internal subwoofer gain setting and once again, using the AVR provided for internal gain setting, using realtime SPL readings, increase/decrease the balanced subwoofer output to a reference 70dB. At this point, subwoofer gain, internal AVR subwoofer gain setting, nothing (or nobody) is running hot or cold as now everything is dialed in and combined, is theoretically zero. From the dialed in position, sub gain being used or AVR gain being use, anything turned up/down from here, becomes "running hot or cold."

Hopefully the above ramblings help clarify why the generic term, "running hot/cold," can be so confusing.

To add more polish to the above, if, as an additional layer, one has an Anti-Mode system, before being run, one must also balance in the fashion described above and after the system is balanced and Anti-Mode has been run, then the AVR's room analyzer program needs to be run. Over all, based on the above, one need to hand balance their subs, two times before it's all said and done. And if using Anti-Mode, one also needs to hand balance two times, once before to set sub gain and once after the AVR provided room analyzer is run to set the internal AVR subwoofer gain to a 70dB Pink Noise reference level. Now "Hot-n-Cold" have meaning.

Recap:

1. Using AVR provided Pink Noise generator, with a handheld sound meter, individually measured (equalized) at 1m and combined output adjusted at main listening position, a combined measured subwoofer output should be a reference of 70dB.

................run Anti-Mode.

...............run AVR provided room analyzer.

2. At main listening position, adjust balanced AVR provided room analyzer output to a 70dB reference, using internal AVR provided sub gain control.

One is now good to go and play their favorite action based sound track. The results of the above, have a high grin factor because "That's what I'm talking about!" biggrin.gif

-
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post #552 of 14327 Old 12-01-2012, 07:38 AM
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Thanks for all the answers! I appreciate the candid and thorough explanations. Hopefully I didn't side track the topic too much.
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post #553 of 14327 Old 12-01-2012, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I think the confusion is that there are two settings one can simultaneously talk about and not be considered wrong. The first setting is the gain setting knob on the subwoofer. A good starting point is setting the dial at two of the ten possible choices on the subwoofer gain dial. In our case that works out to a position of about eight O'clock. I get confused as nobody tells me if it's A.M. or P.M., so as a morning person, I position the dial at 8:00 O'clock A.M., and of course, that's PST or -8 GMT. tongue.gif
......................rolleyes.gif
Balance each subwoofer to about 66dB @ a measured 1m sound meter reading distance with the sound meter microphone pointed directly at the subwoofer driver. If using a pair of subs, the combined adjusted output of the two subs should roughly translate into 70dB at main listening position. That's why the need of measured adjustments as one's listening position might be nine feet, or fifteen feet from a pair of asymmetrically placed subwoofers and it's all about the main listening position and if one is sitting in a sealed, 2,500^3 theater room or a 3,500^3 living room that's open to the entryway and kitchen. Doing what I suggest, hopefully takes all these variables into consideration. eek.gif
The second number is the gain set internally by the AVR, based on the readings it receives from Audyssey or the AVR's provided room analyzer program. In our case, Audyssey (or the AVR, however one wishes to characterize the interaction), dials the internal AVR sub gain down, -9.5. You can interpret that to mean, overall, our sub's gain setting is running hot but the AVR provided sub gain, being set "below" zero, is running cold. Hence the confusion of "Hot-n-Cold" as one needs to know which gain setting is being spoken about and is it being spoken of in the context of being a dialed in system? Each person's listening room's gain is going be different (sealed vs open), hence why everybody gets different reported AVR settings. As long as the reading is somewhere between the two plus/minus extremes, you're good. Nine is better than twelve so one knows they're off the bumpers and as long as the settings are off the extremes, six is not better than nine as it's all good. The point, there is no internal perfect. Like a vehicle front end alignment, there are specs and as long as within specs, everybody is good to go. One is always welcome to be as anal regarding this issue as they wish. As the saying goes: "Knock yourself out."
First things first, if running one sub, two subs or more subs, before running the room analyzer, based on realtime, main listening position measurements, one must hand dial in the combined subwoofer SPL using a handheld sound meter and the subs gain control so their combined output is equal to 70dB. My understanding, the final setting of all the combined sub output, whether one or a dozen subs, should be 70dB at listening position. This is to maintain headroom capability. And anybody who wants can correct any errors or admissions in my above.
Now that the subs have been dialed in, run and set the room analyzer program. Once done, go back into the AVR and check the internal subwoofer gain setting and once again, using the AVR provided for internal gain setting, using realtime SPL readings, increase/decrease the balanced subwoofer output to a reference 70dB. At this point, subwoofer gain, internal AVR subwoofer gain setting, nothing (or nobody) is running hot or cold as now everything is dialed in and combined, is theoretically zero. From the dialed in position, sub gain being used or AVR gain being use, anything turned up/down from here, becomes "running hot or cold."
Hopefully the above ramblings help clarify why the generic term, "running hot/cold," can be so confusing.
To add more polish to the above, if, as an additional layer, one has an Anti-Mode system, before being run, one must also balance in the fashion described above and after the system is balanced and Anti-Mode has been run, then the AVR's room analyzer program needs to be run. Over all, based on the above, one need to hand balance their subs, two times before it's all said and done. And if using Anti-Mode, one also needs to hand balance two times, once before to set sub gain and once after the AVR provided room analyzer is run to set the internal AVR subwoofer gain to a 70dB Pink Noise reference level. Now "Hot-n-Cold" have meaning.
Recap:
1. Using AVR provided Pink Noise generator, with a handheld sound meter, individually measured (equalized) at 1m and combined output adjusted at main listening position, a combined measured subwoofer output should be a reference of 70dB.
................run Anti-Mode.
...............run AVR provided room analyzer.
2. At main listening position, adjust balanced AVR provided room analyzer output to a 70dB reference, using internal AVR provided sub gain control.
One is now good to go and play their favorite action based sound track. The results of the above, have a high grin factor because "That's what I'm talking about!" biggrin.gif
-

How does this change with down firing subs @ 1 meter, turn the sub on it's side?

j_nordi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post

How does this change with down firing subs @ 1 meter, turn the sub on it's side?

Oh, sure, ask me a question I don't have an answer for. tongue.gif

No clue on your above question as I've never dialed in a down-firing sub. Shame on me as Power Sound Audio subs are down-firing.

My guess, go to the floor and point the sound meter at the floor slit opening from a "measured" 1m distance and adjust the subwoofer gain based on realtime readings obtained in this fashion.

-
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post #555 of 14327 Old 12-01-2012, 05:00 PM
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Received my XV-15 on Friday. I am certainly enjoying it! Paired with BIC PL-89's, PL-28 and Denon AVR-1713. Considering my Standout Designs Haven cost more than most of this equipment combined, I am very impressed!
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post #556 of 14327 Old 12-01-2012, 06:06 PM
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Man the above information on setting up a sub or sub(s) is kinda confusing. What the hell,
whatever happened to just using your sound meter, adjusting the phase so it sounds best,
and then listen with your EARS as to what you like? Use an Anti Mode if you like.
REW, SMS-1.....this is NOT rocket science. Just enjoy what you have, and don't
let a computer tell if you do this it will make things sound better rolleyes.gif

Or if you really need to email Tod Vonhamel, he will help.....
What ever happened to base traps? They will surely make your bass sound better.

One meter if the sub it's turned on it's side???????

vardo

(I know the above information is crap, but I'm trying to up my post count ya know tongue.gif )

Edit....the part about bass traps is not crap.
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post #557 of 14327 Old 12-01-2012, 08:24 PM
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Check out the new XS30s that I'm about too order!! I'm going with dual XS30s. I can't wait!
http://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/power-x/products/xs30
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post #558 of 14327 Old 12-01-2012, 08:39 PM
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Check out the new XS30s that I'm about too order!! I'm going with dual XS30s. I can't wait! http://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/power-x/products/xs30

An Empire on steroids? I didn't see that coming. Tom's been holding out on us! You might just be the first kid on the block with one of those.

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post #559 of 14327 Old 12-01-2012, 09:28 PM
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Check out the new XS30s that I'm about too order!! I'm going with dual XS30s. I can't wait!
http://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/power-x/products/xs30


That looks awesome!!

3 - JTR 228's LCR (game room)
2 - DIY Sound Group V-8 Coaxials (game room)
4 - PSA Triax's (game room)
2 - SVS SB13+'s (living room)
1 - SVS SB12-NSD (bedroom)
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post #560 of 14327 Old 12-01-2012, 09:29 PM
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Yeah I was talking to Tom for about 2 weeks now and going back and forth between getting dual XS15s or XV15s or going with a single JTR Captivator S1. And then he said check out the wesite there's something I'd probably really like. So for less then the price of 1 Captivator S1 I can have dual XS30s. I think that should be plenty for my 2100cubic/ft theater room!! biggrin.gif
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post #561 of 14327 Old 12-01-2012, 11:15 PM
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Great... I thought I was sure about ordering the XV15. Now with the XS30 out I'm back at square 1. Tom I'll probably calling you sometime this week to help me figure this out.
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post #562 of 14327 Old 12-01-2012, 11:22 PM
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With the drivers horizontally opposed, I wonder what the ideal placement would be? One facing the listening area and the other to the wall? I wonder how far it should be from the wall?

3 - JTR 228's LCR (game room)
2 - DIY Sound Group V-8 Coaxials (game room)
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post #563 of 14327 Old 12-02-2012, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Check out the new XS30s that I'm about too order!! I'm going with dual XS30s. I can't wait!
http://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/power-x/products/xs30

Me too!!!biggrin.gif Tom and I have been chatting for a couple of weeks and I was all set to order dual xv15s and just see how close to my goal they got me. Tom was like "hold off a couple of days, I have something that might just be perfect for you". I am hopeful that I will get some low end reinforcement, although my room might be a touch difficult. Best we can figure is that a pair in my room, each in its relative front corner should provide low to mid teens output all the way down to 15hz or so. It also sounds like there will be some output, albeit limited, below 10hz or damn close to it. Hope to see these things before the week is out!

Good luck with yours, keep us posted!
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post #564 of 14327 Old 12-02-2012, 05:44 AM
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Great... I thought I was sure about ordering the XV15. Now with the XS30 out I'm back at square 1. Tom I'll probably calling you sometime this week to help me figure this out.
After looking at the Specifications on this bad boy, As long as you have the room for it. Buy it.... you will never be saying, I want more rumble out of my home theater. biggrin.gif

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post #565 of 14327 Old 12-02-2012, 07:00 AM
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An Empire on steroids? I didn't see that coming. Tom's been holding out on us! You might just be the first kid on the block with one of those.

ha thats exactly what i thought when i looked at it, looks amazing
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post #566 of 14327 Old 12-02-2012, 07:07 AM
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That XS30 looks like a beast!! Wonder how it would it sound with a XV15??

PSN= Jamweiser
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post #567 of 14327 Old 12-02-2012, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

Me too!!!biggrin.gif Tom and I have been chatting for a couple of weeks and I was all set to order dual xv15s and just see how close to my goal they got me. Tom was like "hold off a couple of days, I have something that might just be perfect for you". I am hopeful that I will get some low end reinforcement, although my room might be a touch difficult. Best we can figure is that a pair in my room, each in its relative front corner should provide low to mid teens output all the way down to 15hz or so. It also sounds like there will be some output, albet limited, below 10hz or damn close to it. Hope to see these things before the week is out!
Good luck with yours, keep us posted!

Tom thinks with my room layout and size that dual XS30s could offer extension down to 7-11hz range!!..lol I can't wait!!
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post #568 of 14327 Old 12-02-2012, 10:28 AM
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Tom....how well do you think the XS30 will perform in an open style family room with 8' ceiling? I am currently using an 18" ported Epik Phoenix and have no problem getting as low as 14hz in my room.




Panny TC-P65VT60 (calibrated by Chad B), Denon AVR-4311, Comcast X1 DVR, Apple TV 3, Sony BDP-S5100, Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers (mains), Horizon (CC) and HTM-200's (Surr), Dual PSA XV15 Subwoofers!!
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post #569 of 14327 Old 12-02-2012, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Tom thinks with my room layout and size that dual XS30s could offer extension down to 7-11hz range!!..lol I can't wait!!

Sweet!! Yeah, I can't wait for these things to ship out. It will be interesting to see the in room output in different cases. I joked with Tom about them looking like empires on steroids too. In would seem that an XS30 would outperform an empire by a fair margin, but only time will tell. I wonder how they will compare to something like the standard submersive...probably down a few db in any given frequency, but if it can get close then two XS30s for the price of a subm would be a no-brainer. In my case, the demensions are close, but the subm is just a touch taller and makes it less than a perfect fit for me. I think I will be really happy with the 30s
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post #570 of 14327 Old 12-02-2012, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

An Empire on steroids? I didn't see that coming. Tom's been holding out on us! You might just be the first kid on the block with one of those.

Empire on steroids or the Submersive's little bro? I've been exchanging emails with Tom regarding this model over the last couple of weeks. Can't wait to hear one! A heck of a buy for it's current price for sure. biggrin.gif
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