Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 190 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5671 of 36073 Old 09-11-2013, 08:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pretsam View Post

It's a very steep drop about 15-20dB from 30 to 20hz.

Two XS30's and you're getting that type of roll-off? That's terrible.

First suggestion, stack these puppies near a corner, about 4' to the left or right of the corner and after running Audyssey (what ever your EQ program might be) take a new measurement. And if you're still have this type of roll-off, give PSA a call as easily, if split apart and placed on opposite walls, WORSE CASE, from 30Hz to 20Hz, you should be down no more than five or six dB.

As to phase issues, play a 30Hz continuous tone and with sound meter in hand, as you turn the phase knob, make note of any SPL changes.

In my opinion, not knowing what you have happening at home, it sounds like something's not working right as opposed to simply being an issue surrounding placement.
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post #5672 of 36073 Old 09-11-2013, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Two XS30's and you're getting that type of roll-off? That's terrible.

First suggestion, stack these puppies near a corner, about 4' to the left or right of the corner and after running Audyssey (what ever your EQ program might be) take a new measurement. And if you're still have this type of roll-off, give PSA a call as easily, if split apart and placed on opposite walls, WORSE CASE, from 30Hz to 20Hz, you should be down no more than five or six dB.

As to phase issues, play a 30Hz continuous tone and with sound meter in hand, as you turn the phase knob, make note of any SPL changes.

In my opinion, not knowing what you have happening at home, it sounds like something's not working right as opposed to simply being an issue surrounding placement.

good point...the more I think about it 15-20db drop from 30 to 20hz is excessive.
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post #5673 of 36073 Old 09-11-2013, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Due to the room being large and open, you most likely are not getting the room gain needed to get a deep flat response that sealed subs rely on. You might be able to boost the low end with a eq device but at the cost of headroom.

The main room has a 20ft ceiling and is connected to the kitchen which has your typical 9ft ceiling, look over balcony to look downstairs and hallway to the front has 2 rooms they are open also. I have 1 sub behind the couch in the corner about 7' away from MLP and I just recently moved the other into this little corner near the steps so both subs are prolly 9' apart but kinda on the same wall(cept a hallway to bathroom separating them). I seem to like it this way rather than having the other XS30 up front in this tiny corner and it was 12' or more away. I tried corner loaded behind the couch in the corner but it was just so easy to pinpoint where the bass was an felt like the left side of my body was going numb lol. I've tried ported subs in this room and I seem to just get the same results. Used to have a XV15 but traded up for the XS30s. I tried a older STF2 HSU(def not same type of sub but) and same results on just the steep drop below 30hz. I'm using one of Superleo demo disc I believe with the sweeps on it. The paper I was writing some #s down on I think at 20hz with XT32 on I was getting 87dB(xs30 by stairs corner, no wall going up stairs just railing)at ref. Maybe I have the room of death.. frown.gif

Would adding any bass traps help or a 3rd sub maybe a XS15? Or am I SOL. EQ device like a minidsp?
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post #5674 of 36073 Old 09-11-2013, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Two XS30's and you're getting that type of roll-off? That's terrible.

First suggestion, stack these puppies near a corner, about 4' to the left or right of the corner and after running Audyssey (what ever your EQ program might be) take a new measurement. And if you're still have this type of roll-off, give PSA a call as easily, if split apart and placed on opposite walls, WORSE CASE, from 30Hz to 20Hz, you should be down no more than five or six dB.

As to phase issues, play a 30Hz continuous tone and with sound meter in hand, as you turn the phase knob, make note of any SPL changes.

In my opinion, not knowing what you have happening at home, it sounds like something's not working right as opposed to simply being an issue surrounding placement.

I had them once corner loaded kinda tight to the wall behind the couch but it was very noticeable where the bass was and felt like your left ear was being beat. This is how they used to be stacked. Prolly 8-10" off the corner. I've never tried them 4' from the corner stacked.

http://images.static-bluray.com/htgallery/129548.jpg
http://images4.static-bluray.com/htgallery/129547.jpg
http://images2.static-bluray.com/htgallery/119939.jpg (old pic but shows room layout some)
http://images3.static-bluray.com/htgallery/110876.jpg (pic of the corner of the stairs, 1 XS30 is in corner where coffee table is, was cleaning why table is there)

I found my paper I did a few measurements with my SPL each individual. This is after XT32. Both subs are gain matched.

Angled Back corner 7' from MLP:
70 - 103db
50 - 108db
45 - 108db
40 - 109db
35 - 109db
30 - 104db
20 - 90db
15 - 82db
10 - 68db

Angled Stairs corner 8.5-9' from MLP:
70 - 99db
50 - 99db
45 - 101db
40 - 104db
35 - 99db
40 - 95db
20 - 87db
15 - 78db
10 - 67db

thanks for help
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post #5675 of 36073 Old 09-11-2013, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by pretsam View Post

The main room has a 20ft ceiling and is connected to the kitchen which has your typical 9ft ceiling, look over balcony to look downstairs and hallway to the front has 2 rooms they are open also. I have 1 sub behind the couch in the corner about 7' away from MLP and I just recently moved the other into this little corner near the steps so both subs are prolly 9' apart but kinda on the same wall(cept a hallway to bathroom separating them). I seem to like it this way rather than having the other XS30 up front in this tiny corner and it was 12' or more away. I tried corner loaded behind the couch in the corner but it was just so easy to pinpoint where the bass was an felt like the left side of my body was going numb lol. I've tried ported subs in this room and I seem to just get the same results. Used to have a XV15 but traded up for the XS30s. I tried a older STF2 HSU(def not same type of sub but) and same results on just the steep drop below 30hz. I'm using one of Superleo demo disc I believe with the sweeps on it. The paper I was writing some #s down on I think at 20hz with XT32 on I was getting 87dB(xs30 by stairs corner, no wall going up stairs just railing)at ref. Maybe I have the room of death.. frown.gif

Would adding any bass traps help or a 3rd sub maybe a XS15? Or am I SOL. EQ device like a minidsp?

What is the total volume of the room?
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post #5676 of 36073 Old 09-11-2013, 10:25 PM
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So I hooked up the Denon 4520ci receiver and the first thing I've determined is that I'm not getting much more power from the bowers and Wilkins speakers because of the low speaker sensitivity, being that this is the 4th time I've upgraded receivers. I ran the Ad EQ and tested it out, man the sound is much more clear and rich in detail! It's like night and day upgrading from the pioneer elite receiver. The dialogue in movies and music is perfectly clear and stands out amazing. As for the Trinity sub, well it's punching much more tight and clear and isn't boomy at all, it sounds like a completely different sub! All I can say is that already this receiver is amazing and has already completely made my system totally improve in so many areas. I haven't tested the blueray player yet because I haven't figured it out eek.gif . I'm so glad I got this receiver because when I get the Triax here, ill be in much better shape and able to properly intregrate it into my setup and now have an awesome EQ system to calibrate it for good preformance.

80 in Sharp Aquos Quattron led 3d tv
Denon AVR-4520CI receiver DBT-3313UDCI blu ray player
Klipsch RF-82 II, RC-62 II, RS-62 II
Dual PSA Triaxes!
Xbox one, xbox 360 My Videos! >
Christmas Surprise! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJcmWTpBcm0
Triax! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhoKuxirdIg
http://...
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post #5677 of 36073 Old 09-11-2013, 11:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

So I hooked up the Denon 4520ci receiver and the first thing I've determined is that I'm not getting much more power from the bowers and Wilkins speakers because of the low speaker sensitivity, being that this is the 4th time I've upgraded receivers. I ran the Ad EQ and tested it out, man the sound is much more clear and rich in detail! It's like night and day upgrading from the pioneer elite receiver. The dialogue in movies and music is perfectly clear and stands out amazing. As for the Trinity sub, well it's punching much more tight and clear and isn't boomy at all, it sounds like a completely different sub! All I can say is that already this receiver is amazing and has already completely made my system totally improve in so many areas. I haven't tested the blueray player yet because I haven't figured it out eek.gif . I'm so glad I got this receiver because when I get the Triax here, ill be in much better shape and able to properly intregrate it into my setup and now have an awesome EQ system to calibrate it for good preformance.

It sounds like you need speakers with a higher effeminacy rating and a higher peak spl ability. And moving to a out board amp instead of moving up receivers. Most recovers can't really push much wattage especially over several channels.

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post #5678 of 36073 Old 09-11-2013, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

It sounds like you need speakers with a higher effeminacy rating and a higher peak spl ability. And moving to a out board amp instead of moving up receivers. Most recovers can't really push much wattage especially over several channels.


Yeah I didn't realize these speakers only have a sensitivity of 88db for fronts and 85 db for the center. The sound quality is really good though so I might just stick with them for a bit. I'd like to go with an ex amp but I might be running into power issues once my Triax gets here ill have it running with my Trinity sub plus all other current devices in my room so ill probably be tripping the breaker soon. I'm just renting the house so I'm not sure if upgrading the power is an option eek.gif

80 in Sharp Aquos Quattron led 3d tv
Denon AVR-4520CI receiver DBT-3313UDCI blu ray player
Klipsch RF-82 II, RC-62 II, RS-62 II
Dual PSA Triaxes!
Xbox one, xbox 360 My Videos! >
Christmas Surprise! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJcmWTpBcm0
Triax! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhoKuxirdIg
http://...
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post #5679 of 36073 Old 09-12-2013, 06:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

good point...the more I think about it 15-20db drop from 30 to 20hz is excessive.

Makes me think of a roller coaster drop.....WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

(at the bottom you have one quarter the output of the top)

-
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post #5680 of 36073 Old 09-12-2013, 06:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

And moving to a out board amp instead of moving up receivers. Most recovers can't really push much wattage especially over several channels.

The 4520CI is special. It has discreet channels and the ability to drive heavy loads (120w.channel, all channels driven) down to those momentary 1-2 ohm demands that will noticeably suck the life out of a sound track. The 4520CI comes with it's own crate of big cojones.

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Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

I'd like to go with an ex amp but I might be running into power issues once my Triax gets here ill have it running with my Trinity sub plus all other current devices in my room so ill probably be tripping the breaker soon. I'm just renting the house so I'm not sure if upgrading the power is an option eek.gif

If you have a 20A service, you should be good as basically the short of the story, a 20A breaker can handle some wild butt surges.

Eaton time current curve.

From the above graph, you'll see that an Eaton, 20A, circuit breaker will hold a 60A surge for a minimum of nine seconds. Unless welding a movie sound track in place, all things equal, your breaker will be good. A 15A breaker will hold approximately 50A for ten seconds before flipping out.

(disclosure; all electric service boxes must be serviced/upgraded with like kind and quality breakers and all upgrades must meet with NEC requirements)

As to the speakers and their sensitivity, that's a speaker centric condition that can only be fixed by.........eek.gif

(Klipsch or alternative equivalents)

...tongue.gif

-

-
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post #5681 of 36073 Old 09-12-2013, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

The 4520CI is special. It has discreet channels and the ability to drive heavy loads (120w.channel, all channels driven) down to those momentary 1-2 ohm demands that will noticeably suck the life out of a sound track. The 4520CI comes with it's own crate of big cojones.

-

Is the AVR-4520CI really capable of 120w all channels driven?
If that's the case that's pretty impressive.
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post #5682 of 36073 Old 09-12-2013, 08:24 AM
 
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Is the AVR-4520CI really capable of 120w all channels driven?
If that's the case that's pretty impressive.

Yup!

In my opinion, it's able to do this because it has nine discreet amplifier channels.

This is the best review I found on the 4520CI.

"Denon says their amp design has symmetrical monolithic construction placing the power transformer in the center of the unit and the power amp blocks at each side to better achieve separation for all channels… all amps are discrete and can produce the same power output."

ahblaze posted this comment in post number 5264:

"BMan that excerpt you posted was from Sonnie @ HTS, he sold his Emo 1000 watt monos he was using to drive his very difficult MLs and bought the Denon 4250, matter of fact the 4520 is driving five speakers, he said there was no sonic benefit of the separates compared to the 4520 plus as you mention XT32 and SUBEQ HT, I think the lesser Denons have trouble driving 4 ohm speaks and become srained when pushed. If the OP really wants an external amp I would go for the front three channels and let the receiver handle the rest. I would go with the 4520 and if the X4000 get the XPA-3, all the headroom you need plus XT32 and SUBEQ HT. Well back to the Triax, I quess nothing yet? I have a little reservation buying Denon refurbished tho. I have separate amps for the LCR, sides and surrounds, can I tell the difference, I want to say a profound yes but I would be lying.
I can't wait for my TRIAX:eek:"

http://hstrial-jrodriguez996.homestead.com/DENON-AVR-4520CI-RECEIVER-REVIEW.html?_=1353372722253

Image below of nine discreet channel blocks.



The AMP is rated 150w/2-channel. Can't find a link to the information showing 120w, all channels driven.

(this thing better be all that it claims to be as, unless Denon updates this model, it's our next AVR purchase)

-
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post #5683 of 36073 Old 09-12-2013, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by pretsam View Post

I had them once corner loaded kinda tight to the wall behind the couch but it was very noticeable where the bass was and felt like your left ear was being beat. This is how they used to be stacked. Prolly 8-10" off the corner. I've never tried them 4' from the corner stacked.

http://images.static-bluray.com/htgallery/129548.jpg
http://images4.static-bluray.com/htgallery/129547.jpg
http://images2.static-bluray.com/htgallery/119939.jpg (old pic but shows room layout some)
http://images3.static-bluray.com/htgallery/110876.jpg (pic of the corner of the stairs, 1 XS30 is in corner where coffee table is, was cleaning why table is there)

I found my paper I did a few measurements with my SPL each individual. This is after XT32. Both subs are gain matched.

Angled Back corner 7' from MLP:
70 - 103db
50 - 108db
45 - 108db
40 - 109db
35 - 109db
30 - 104db
20 - 90db
15 - 82db
10 - 68db

Angled Stairs corner 8.5-9' from MLP:
70 - 99db
50 - 99db
45 - 101db
40 - 104db
35 - 99db
40 - 95db
20 - 87db
15 - 78db
10 - 67db

thanks for help

Is this with any type of compensation or correction values added in for the SPL meter? What model SPL meter did you use? What weighting was used? If you are using a Rat Shack meter with the standard C-Weighting you will have to at least compensate for the C-Weighting rolloff. If you had REW setup, I would also suggest taking a sweep with the SPL meter / mic an inch from the center of one of the drivers. A close mic sweep like this should be very close to the ground plane measurement from PSA.
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post #5684 of 36073 Old 09-12-2013, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

What is the total volume of the room?

Sent you a pm, didn't want to get to off topic even tho involves psa product smile.gif
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post #5685 of 36073 Old 09-12-2013, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pretsam View Post

Sent you a pm, didn't want to get to off topic even tho involves psa product smile.gif

Please feel free to use this thread as a support thread. This thread is for all things PSA related, support, sales, questions, speculation, news and so on. smile.gif
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I just received my XS30.. I hope I see a nice difference from the XV15..
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post #5687 of 36073 Old 09-12-2013, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Goat1 View Post

I just received my XS30.. I hope I see a nice difference from the XV15..

I've not been keeping as close track on this thread, as I normally do. Did you end up picking a veneer choice?

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post #5688 of 36073 Old 09-12-2013, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

Is this with any type of compensation or correction values added in for the SPL meter? What model SPL meter did you use? What weighting was used? If you are using a Rat Shack meter with the standard C-Weighting you will have to at least compensate for the C-Weighting rolloff. If you had REW setup, I would also suggest taking a sweep with the SPL meter / mic an inch from the center of one of the drivers. A close mic sweep like this should be very close to the ground plane measurement from PSA.

No, I just used a regular rat shack meter C weighted on slow. Analog also have digital but they some times give me different readings from each other. Running REW with just a SPL meter would that be sufficient or just enough to get a basic idea of things?
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post #5689 of 36073 Old 09-12-2013, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

Please feel free to use this thread as a support thread. This thread is for all things PSA related, support, sales, questions, speculation, news and so on. smile.gif

Thanks smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goat1 View Post

I just received my XS30.. I hope I see a nice difference from the XV15..

Good to hear Goat! I hope you like it. I noticed a difference from XV15 to XS30. Let us know your thoughts when you get it dialed in.
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Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

I've not been keeping as close track on this thread, as I normally do. Did you end up picking a veneer choice?

Just got the standard black.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pretsam View Post

Thanks smile.gif
Good to hear Goat! I hope you like it. I noticed a difference from XV15 to XS30. Let us know your thoughts when you get it dialed in.

Will do,I borrowed my buddy's omni mic also. I'm not stuck on measurements like some guys. But I'm just curious..
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Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

Please feel free to use this thread as a support thread. This thread is for all things PSA related, support, sales, questions, speculation, news and so on. smile.gif

And even some things not PSA related if you've been following since the beginning! tongue.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #5692 of 36073 Old 09-12-2013, 02:51 PM - Thread Starter
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And even some things not PSA related if you've been following since the beginning! tongue.gifbiggrin.gif

Yup this is supposed to be a community oriented thread. I made this thread to give people a place to talk about PSA and just chat if they wanted. And well to avoid an outcry that PSA was taking over the front page, that was a common complaint about a lot of companies before dedicated threads started poping up...... good times. I remember people suggesting that SVS, HSU ecete should make their own forums because they kept forcing other topics off the first page or two.....
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Oh good.....I can stop holding my breath, waiting to get smacked for responding to the 4520CI comments.

tongue.gif
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post #5694 of 36073 Old 09-12-2013, 02:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh good.....I can stop holding my breath, waiting to get smacked for responding to the 4520CI comments.

tongue.gif

Don't worry I'll smack you just for fun.....

http://youtu.be/qYNeT2nzEgA

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post #5695 of 36073 Old 09-12-2013, 03:14 PM
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I just received my XS30.. I hope I see a nice difference from the XV15..

Yea!

Let us know how they compare. smile.gif

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Originally Posted by pretsam View Post

No, I just used a regular rat shack meter C weighted on slow. Analog also have digital but they some times give me different readings from each other. Running REW with just a SPL meter would that be sufficient or just enough to get a basic idea of things?

Without any C weighting compensation, that will cause a small discrepancy in the bass readings and some analog rat shack meters need more compensation than just c weighting. Running REW with a rat shack meter is sufficient to get a general idea of what is going on in your room. The compensation needed depends on the model. See this thread comparing different mics.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1328136/measurement-mic-shootout-emm-6-wm-61a-rs-33-2055-audyssey

If you have a 2055 digital model, I would probably use that with REW with C weighting compensation. Just make sure the meter has a good battery. I have read about people getting strange readings when the battery is low.
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post #5697 of 36073 Old 09-12-2013, 05:42 PM
 
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Don't worry I'll smack you just for fun.....

Great! It's always nice to have something to look forward to. tongue.gif
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post #5698 of 36073 Old 09-13-2013, 09:46 AM
 
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I have my new XS30 in a corner but I'm going to try different spots. I borrowed my friends omni mic and I will use that also. I have not run audyssey xt32 yet.
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post #5699 of 36073 Old 09-13-2013, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

Yeah I didn't realize these speakers only have a sensitivity of 88db for fronts and 85 db for the center. The sound quality is really good though so I might just stick with them for a bit. I'd like to go with an ex amp but I might be running into power issues once my Triax gets here ill have it running with my Trinity sub plus all other current devices in my room so ill probably be tripping the breaker soon. I'm just renting the house so I'm not sure if upgrading the power is an option eek.gif
Did you go in and set the amp up properly. You can dedicate all the amps to power the mains.
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post #5700 of 36073 Old 09-13-2013, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

Did you go in and set the amp up properly. You can dedicate all the amps to power the mains.

Man actually i just did all the auto setups and calibration, ima check the settings on that tonight, thanks for looking out smile.gif

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