Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 208 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 10-04-2013, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Not knocking your above, you might find that some of the improvement is due to better quality DACs as more detail is being produced. I'm at the point where music must be either lossy ripped or played in uncompressed formats so none of the recording detail is lost.

The further one goes down the rabbit hole labeled "compressed recording," the flatter and less dynamics one has in playback; much like cable movies vs Blu-ray movies.

-

The thing of it is, my electronics haven't changed since 2011, but I've gone through a handful of subwoofers since then. This dual-sealed setup exposes a layer I wasn't really experiencing before, even when I had a quality ported 12"; probably because there was only one but possibly also because of its response curve, in my room.

Still, DACs are a subject I don't know at all. I like the sound of my Denons more than I liked the sound of my Onkyo or, bizarrely, my Marantz--but that latter unit was faulty so who knows? --but I simply don't know about the relative merits of DACs I'd heard previously. It's a good point, though.

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Old 10-04-2013, 01:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

The thing of it is, my electronics haven't changed since 2011, but I've gone through a handful of subwoofers since then. This dual-sealed setup exposes a layer I wasn't really experiencing before, even when I had a quality ported 12"; probably because there was only one but possibly also because of its response curve, in my room.

Forgive my poorly worded comment, I'll change it's form. Not to take away from your subwoofer purchases, when did you start to measure your room and work to flatten out your room's graph?

Yes, in agreement with you, if your electronics have not changed and you've been measuring and properly integrating your subwoofer system and the only piece of equipment that has changed is your subwoofer, then yes, the change of the subwoofer has made the difference. On our part, I look forward to upgrading our subwoofers for the expected sonic benefit yet to be experienced. In advance of this upgrade, I do have to admit that my opinion has been biased by those who post here. biggrin.gif

We're at the point where my wife fails to hear improvement. Is my improvement placebo? I hear it because I'm suppose to hear it? Is it like other connoisseurs, I've trained my brain to be a sonic snob and now I'm useless? Must I now lie when asked what I think of another's system that's obviously an underperforming, poorly integrated, subwoofer system?

Help! I've gone down a rabbit hole and I can't get up. tongue.gif

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Old 10-04-2013, 03:00 PM
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I've never done any manual measurements; I've been using Audyssey, and not even a fancy one, just humble-pie MultEQ.

What I'm getting at though, just to stay focused, is that the electronics and speakers have remained the same since 2011. However, I upgraded to an XS15 pair earlier this year, and it's made a world of difference to my experience of music, a huge improvement over any of the single subs I had used previously.

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Old 10-04-2013, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

I've never done any manual measurements; I've been using Audyssey, and not even a fancy one, just humble-pie MultEQ.

What I'm getting at though, just to stay focused, is that the electronics and speakers have remained the same since 2011. However, I upgraded to an XS15 pair earlier this year, and it's made a world of difference to my experience of music, a huge improvement over any of the single subs I had used previously.

How do you like your dual XS15s for movies? I know they must sound good for music.

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Old 10-04-2013, 10:43 PM
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How do you like your dual XS15s for movies? I know they must sound good for music.

They're fantastic for everything. It matters that they play in a pretty small space, ~1600 cu. ft., although this space is less than ideal because it opens to a hallway with adjoining rooms.

Anyway I get a lot of low end gain in this room, and I love the way the XS15's response curve interacts with it. There's definitely a different balance of mid bass to deep bass, as compared to subs designed to be flat to a tuning point, but it's a balance that I favor overall.

For the record, I'm convinced that your choice of subwoofer design (and its handling characteristics) should really be decided by your room, not your content.

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Old 10-05-2013, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

They're fantastic for everything. It matters that they play in a pretty small space, ~1600 cu. ft., although this space is less than ideal because it opens to a hallway with adjoining rooms.

Anyway I get a lot of low end gain in this room, and I love the way the XS15's response curve interacts with it. There's definitely a different balance of mid bass to deep bass, as compared to subs designed to be flat to a tuning point, but it's a balance that I favor overall.

For the record, I'm convinced that your choice of subwoofer design (and its handling characteristics) should really be decided by your room, not your content.

Could you describe the difference in mid bass/deep bass balance you referred to?

I'm going from a ported sub, SVS 16-46PC +, to a sealed sub, PSA Triax. Having never owned a sealed sub (I've had my SVS for over 10 years) I'm not sure what to expect. I love that my SVS has strong output in my room into the mid teens and hope I'm not giving that up by going with the Triax (based on Tom's comments I'm hoping I'll actually gain output down low). The natural response (no EQ) I'm getting at my LP looks much like a house curve, meaning increasing gain as frequency drops (I like this).

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Old 10-05-2013, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

Could you describe the difference in mid bass/deep bass balance you referred to?

I'm going from a ported sub, SVS 16-46PC +, to a sealed sub, PSA Triax. Having never owned a sealed sub (I've had my SVS for over 10 years) I'm not sure what to expect. I love that my SVS has strong output in my room into the mid teens and hope I'm not giving that up by going with the Triax (based on Tom's comments I'm hoping I'll actually gain output down low). The natural response (no EQ) I'm getting at my LP looks much like a house curve, meaning increasing gain as frequency drops (I like this).

Certainly! My XS15s are stronger in the mid bass relative to the deep bass, as compared to my own SVS cylinder (PC12-NSD). SVS ported subs are engineered to have a very flat response across almost their entire response, and I'm not an expert but I think that's an approach that works really well in installments that don't provide much room gain. For those environments that do provide a lot of gain, there can be a fattening in the deep bass and ULF that makes mid bass sound quiet and distant, and makes the low end crazy-thunderous. Some people can enjoy that balance when watching modern action movies, I know I think it's fun sometimes, but in my opinion the balance I have now--and, I'm guessing, that a lot of small-room HT owners with sealed subs have--is a richer, clearer, and better balance overall. A major part of this is also that I upgraded from a single sub to two subs, with one parked three feet behind the MLPs. WWZ is bonkers biggrin.gif

Anyway the point is, I was also scared that I'd be losing something, going from a ported, steeply rolled off design to a sealed sub with a long, shallow rolloff; believe me, I fretted over the response curves for months! It turns out, in fact, that rooms like mine are nearly ideal for the latter kind of subwoofer. I'll only buy sealed subs from now on, as long as I live in similarly-sized apartments.

All that said, PSA's graphs suggest that the Triax has a hugely shallower rolloff than the XS15, implying that you would be losing even less of the deep bass and ULF as compared to your 16-46PC+ than I lost going from PC12-NSD to XS15 (depending on what your room is like, of course), and of course possibly gaining extension you've only fantasized about. On the other hand, I've seen several forum posters return XS30s in favor of XV30s, so personal taste is a major consideration. I'm very music-first; even in my HT, I spend far more time listening to music than watching movies or playing games. That may change if I ever get around to upgrading the sub in my music room. I'm looking hard at another XS15 biggrin.gif

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Old 10-05-2013, 10:26 AM
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Maybe all that verbiage doesn't help describe the experience. Well, action movie mid bass like small arms fire and some components of car crashes, has *pop.* It's potent and more defined in a way it wasn't previously.

There's definitely less of a hump in the range from, say, 35 to 16, but to my perception the result is a more detailed presentation at very low frequencies. I'm talking about The Pod Emerges, the planetary implosion in Star Trek 2009, all of Cloverfield, the classics. Whether by virtue of a more neutral response, or dual subs, or some third thing I don't know, my current setup towers over any other I've had.

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Old 10-05-2013, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

Could you describe the difference in mid bass/deep bass balance you referred to?

I'm going from a ported sub, SVS 16-46PC +, to a sealed sub, PSA Triax. Having never owned a sealed sub (I've had my SVS for over 10 years) I'm not sure what to expect. I love that my SVS has strong output in my room into the mid teens and hope I'm not giving that up by going with the Triax (based on Tom's comments I'm hoping I'll actually gain output down low). The natural response (no EQ) I'm getting at my LP looks much like a house curve, meaning increasing gain as frequency drops (I like this).

I highly doubt a Triax will give up any output at any given frequency range over a SVS 16-46PC, and will absolutely blast it out of the water down low below the port tune of the SVS 16-46PC. I can't wait to see how much output one will have down into single digit numbers.
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Old 10-05-2013, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

I highly doubt a Triax will give up any output at any given frequency range over a SVS 16-46PC, and will absolutely blast it out of the water down low below the port tune of the SVS 16-46PC. I can't wait to see how much output one will have down into single digit numbers.

No doubt, no doubt, but we're talking about the differences in the way the subs sound, which I think is more about their response curves, less about max SPL.

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Old 10-05-2013, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

Could you describe the difference in mid bass/deep bass balance you referred to?

I'm going from a ported sub, SVS 16-46PC +, to a sealed sub, PSA Triax. Having never owned a sealed sub (I've had my SVS for over 10 years) I'm not sure what to expect. I love that my SVS has strong output in my room into the mid teens and hope I'm not giving that up by going with the Triax (based on Tom's comments I'm hoping I'll actually gain output down low). The natural response (no EQ) I'm getting at my LP looks much like a house curve, meaning increasing gain as frequency drops (I like this).


Saturn, that is simply the nature of sealed subs...They start to roll off below 40hz and rely on room gain to pick up the output in the deeper frequencies. Thats why there are ported subs and sealed subs. For rooms that dont offer much room gain or "free lunch" ported subs will work better, unless one is willing to add multiple sealed subs.

Im going to kick this up a notch hoping you absorb this info...I know you are worried about the coin you dropped on the Triax but that 10yr old water heater of a sub will not hold a candle to it. The Triax is going to destroy it every where in terms of depth, sound quality, and output. That 16-46+ is similar to a XV15, its going to take roughly 4 XV15's to equal the updated Triax. Take a deep breath and relax, everything will be ok... smile.gif

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Old 10-05-2013, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

I remember having the same experience with my first high efficiency speaker purchase and Nirvana's Nevermind. I had heard the material on so many different systems that I never thought I'd be that taken "aback". I literally had to stop the first track a minute into it and double check the system to be sure I didn't have any kind of processing on(lexicon DC-1 front end back then). So much detail I never heard before. I've had a on/off(mostly on) love affair with high efficiency designs ever since.

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Wait a minute. Is this a hint? Are you doing some market research? The answer is Yes, I am curious about high efficiency loudspeakers. Tell me more.

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Old 10-05-2013, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

Certainly! My XS15s are stronger in the mid bass relative to the deep bass, as compared to my own SVS cylinder (PC12-NSD). SVS ported subs are engineered to have a very flat response across almost their entire response, and I'm not an expert but I think that's an approach that works really well in installments that don't provide much room gain. For those environments that do provide a lot of gain, there can be a fattening in the deep bass and ULF that makes mid bass sound quiet and distant, and makes the low end crazy-thunderous. Some people can enjoy that balance when watching modern action movies, I know I think it's fun sometimes, but in my opinion the balance I have now--and, I'm guessing, that a lot of small-room HT owners with sealed subs have--is a richer, clearer, and better balance overall. A major part of this is also that I upgraded from a single sub to two subs, with one parked three feet behind the MLPs. WWZ is bonkers biggrin.gif

Anyway the point is, I was also scared that I'd be losing something, going from a ported, steeply rolled off design to a sealed sub with a long, shallow rolloff; believe me, I fretted over the response curves for months! It turns out, in fact, that rooms like mine are nearly ideal for the latter kind of subwoofer. I'll only buy sealed subs from now on, as long as I live in similarly-sized apartments.

All that said, PSA's graphs suggest that the Triax has a hugely shallower rolloff than the XS15, implying that you would be losing even less of the deep bass and ULF as compared to your 16-46PC+ than I lost going from PC12-NSD to XS15 (depending on what your room is like, of course), and of course possibly gaining extension you've only fantasized about. On the other hand, I've seen several forum posters return XS30s in favor of XV30s, so personal taste is a major consideration. I'm very music-first; even in my HT, I spend far more time listening to music than watching movies or playing games. That may change if I ever get around to upgrading the sub in my music room. I'm looking hard at another XS15 biggrin.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

Maybe all that verbiage doesn't help describe the experience. Well, action movie mid bass like small arms fire and some components of car crashes, has *pop.* It's potent and more defined in a way it wasn't previously.

There's definitely less of a hump in the range from, say, 35 to 16, but to my perception the result is a more detailed presentation at very low frequencies. I'm talking about The Pod Emerges, the planetary implosion in Star Trek 2009, all of Cloverfield, the classics. Whether by virtue of a more neutral response, or dual subs, or some third thing I don't know, my current setup towers over any other I've had.

Thanks! smile.gif

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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

I highly doubt a Triax will give up any output at any given frequency range over a SVS 16-46PC, and will absolutely blast it out of the water down low below the port tune of the SVS 16-46PC. I can't wait to see how much output one will have down into single digit numbers.

Unfortunately my UMIK 1 only goes down to 15hz, so I'll have to go by "feel" too see how much sub 15hz I'm getting. Do you have any recommended demo material that contains sub 15hz effects?


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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Saturn, that is simply the nature of sealed subs...They start to roll off below 40hz and rely on room gain to pick up the output in the deeper frequencies. Thats why there are ported subs and sealed subs. For rooms that dont offer much room gain or "free lunch" ported subs will work better, unless one is willing to add multiple sealed subs.

Im going to kick this up a notch hoping you absorb this info...I know you are worried about the coin you dropped on the Triax but that 10yr old water heater of a sub will not hold a candle to it. The Triax is going to destroy it every where in terms of depth, sound quality, and output. That 16-46+ is similar to a XV15, its going to take roughly 4 XV15's to equal the updated Triax. Take a deep breath and relax, everything will be ok... smile.gif

Hehe....you hit the nail right on the head! I greatly appreciate the encouragement (breathing deeply... biggrin.gif ).

BTW, Tom said this about room gain after viewing the room tour video I sent to him;

...Even in your larger room you can expect some "room gain". I'd say 2-4dB at 20hz and 3-5dB at 15hz would be the minimum I'd expect....

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Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

Wait a minute. Is this a hint? Are you doing some market research? The answer is Yes, I am curious about high efficiency loudspeakers. Tell me more.

I believe PSA plans on offering speakers in the future. Perhaps they will offer high efficiency designs?

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Old 10-05-2013, 02:33 PM
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Unfortunately my UMIK 1 only goes down to 15hz, so I'll have to go by "feel" too see how much sub 15hz I'm getting.

Where did you get that? *My* UMIK-1 is calibrated down to 10 Hz, and probably responds (in an uncalibrated fashion) below. As far as I understand it however, calibration is less accurate below 15 Hz and perhaps the first UMIK-1 weren't calibrated that low.

I'm sure you'll get at least a rough idea with the UMIK-1. As for content... The Server Room scene in Pulse goes down to 15 Hz. The 'effin Irene scene in Black Hawk Down is down to about 10 Hz. There is a very strong 17 Hz note in Bass, I Love You, and "hidden" 7 Hz heartbeats in the middle of the piece.

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Old 10-05-2013, 02:44 PM
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Where did you get that? *My* UMIK-1 is calibrated down to 10 Hz, and probably responds (in an uncalibrated fashion) below. As far as I understand it however, calibration is less accurate below 15 Hz and perhaps the first UMIK-1 weren't calibrated that low.

I'm sure you'll get at least a rough idea with the UMIK-1. As for content... The Server Room scene in Pulse goes down to 15 Hz. The 'effin Irene scene in Black Hawk Down is down to about 10 Hz. There is a very strong 17 Hz note in Bass, I Love You, and "hidden" 7 Hz heartbeats in the middle of the piece.

I thought I read in a REW forum that the UMIK was limited to 15hz. Perhaps I misunderstood. I bought mine a few months ago directly from miniDSP if that matters. I'll certainly give it a shot measuring below 15hz when the Triax arrives. smile.gif

Thanks for the demo material suggestions.

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Old 10-05-2013, 03:03 PM
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my umm-6 measures well below 15hz...I would imagine the umik-1 does as well.

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Old 10-05-2013, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

They're fantastic for everything. It matters that they play in a pretty small space, ~1600 cu. ft., although this space is less than ideal because it opens to a hallway with adjoining rooms.

Anyway I get a lot of low end gain in this room, and I love the way the XS15's response curve interacts with it. There's definitely a different balance of mid bass to deep bass, as compared to subs designed to be flat to a tuning point, but it's a balance that I favor overall.

For the record, I'm convinced that your choice of subwoofer design (and its handling characteristics) should really be decided by your room, not your content.

Thanks so much for all your input. I am planning on going with dual XV15s to replace my SVS PB12 plus in my 2700cf room.

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Old 10-05-2013, 05:24 PM
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Thanks so much for all your input. I am planning on going with dual XV15s to replace my SVS PB12 plus in my 2700cf room.

I think you're in for a real treat, my friend smile.gif

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Old 10-05-2013, 05:59 PM
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I believe PSA plans on offering speakers in the future. Perhaps they will offer high efficiency designs?

I wouldn't hold your breath on anything within the next 12 months at least.
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Old 10-05-2013, 06:43 PM
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I wouldn't hold your breath on anything within the next 12 months at least.

Have you spoken with the owners about it?

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Old 10-05-2013, 07:02 PM
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Man, I went over my setup a bunch of times, everything sounds so good............I'm so ready for a Triax! biggrin.gif Has anyone heard any news of when they will ship?

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Old 10-05-2013, 07:40 PM
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Thanks so much for all your input. I am planning on going with dual XV15s to replace my SVS PB12 plus in my 2700cf room.

Congrats! You might try the PB12 plus with both XV15's and see how 3 subs work in your room. smile.gif

Getting Started with REW: A Step by Step Guide -->http://www.roomeqwizard.com/REWhelp.pdf

Mini DSP Tutorial by Neutro --> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...g-minidsp.html
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Old 10-05-2013, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

Have you spoken with the owners about it?

Haha yes I have, well I shouldn't of said 12 months. But don't hold your breath on buying anything soon from them.
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Old 10-06-2013, 12:12 AM
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Man, I went over my setup a bunch of times, everything sounds so good............I'm so ready for a Triax! biggrin.gif Has anyone heard any news of when they will ship?
Tom told me the drivers might make it to them last Fri, i hope they did, so i expect them to ship this coming week.

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Old 10-06-2013, 06:18 AM
 
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ok my first attempt at REW....please disregard the level I was doing it early morning and didn't want to wake anyone(will that effect the response?) I just wanted to give it a quick go at it

1/6 octave smoothing
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Old 10-06-2013, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post



ok my first attempt at REW....please disregard the level I was doing it early morning and didn't want to wake anyone(will that effect the response?) I just wanted to give it a quick go at it

1/6 octave smoothing

WHAT! That looks almost too good to be true!

Once again, I am sorry to take a sledgehammer to so small and fragile a nut. -- Richard Dawkins, The Greatest Show On Earth
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Old 10-06-2013, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Haha yes I have, well I shouldn't of said 12 months. But don't hold your breath on buying anything soon from them.

Son of a gun... I'll be danged. Interesting smile.gif

Once again, I am sorry to take a sledgehammer to so small and fragile a nut. -- Richard Dawkins, The Greatest Show On Earth
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Old 10-06-2013, 07:04 AM
 
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WHAT! That looks almost too good to be true!
Haha really?

Well i do have a slight confession. I have an antimode in the mix so i guess its doing its job?
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Old 10-06-2013, 07:16 AM
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Yeah Brian, it looks damn good! But, you should restrict the vertical range a bit. I believe for sub graphs, the standard range is 40-100 dB. As it is, we can barely see the variations in the curve.

Also, it's clear you have some kind of processing that applies a house curve. If you took the measurement at low levels, perhaps it was it Audyssey DynamicEQ on? Turn it off if it is. Or perhaps your Antimode allows you to dial in a house curve? If you have no house curve specified, you have one hell of a room gain factor biggrin.gif

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Old 10-06-2013, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

Haha really?

Well i do have a slight confession. I have an antimode in the mix so i guess its doing its job?

Sure looks like! I don't know the first thing about measurements though, so... validate with somebody who knows what's up. What are your subs again? Dual XVs or a single XV? Which AntiMode?

Edit: Hehe, yeah I figured one of the knowledge-people would chime in on that graph...

Once again, I am sorry to take a sledgehammer to so small and fragile a nut. -- Richard Dawkins, The Greatest Show On Earth
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