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post #7471 of 15219 Old 11-27-2013, 05:29 AM
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It would seem odd to have port noise at -18 no? I could understand if he was running at reference, but that doesn't sound right to me at -18.

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post #7472 of 15219 Old 11-27-2013, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post


Audyssey will usually knock the sub down, but after you finish running everything you just adjust it to where you like. Like with mine it'll always put my sub at -12dbs so I just happily put it back up biggrin.gif

If it puts the sub at -12, they you need to back the gain down on the sub so that it is at least showing -10/-11. I think on the denon avr's -12 means it is not in the allowable range for calibration.

Mine is usually set to -7 or -8 and then I bump it up 3dbs or so.

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post #7473 of 15219 Old 11-27-2013, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post

If it puts the sub at -12, they you need to back the gain down on the sub so that it is at least showing -10/-11. I think on the denon avr's -12 means it is not in the allowable range for calibration.

Mine is usually set to -7 or -8 and then I bump it up 3dbs or so.

Thats what I do that way I have some adjustability for source content that has lower bass levels.
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post #7474 of 15219 Old 11-27-2013, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by walke108 View Post

It would seem odd to have port noise at -18 no? I could understand if he was running at reference, but that doesn't sound right to me at -18.

Alan, what's your excuse, your running sealed?? wink.gif

Thats probably because he is running the sub hot with dynamic eq. Most will agree that calibrating the sub @ 75db leaves the sub(s) sounding anemic. Most like bass 5-10db Hot. If thas the case you need to add more subwoofage to reduce the load on the sub. Sealed will not have port noise but will make mechanical noises when pushed to its limits...what he is hearing is most likely the soft limiter kicking in causing the flapping sound.
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post #7475 of 15219 Old 11-27-2013, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post

If it puts the sub at -12, they you need to back the gain down on the sub so that it is at least showing -10/-11. I think on the denon avr's -12 means it is not in the allowable range for calibration.

Mine is usually set to -7 or -8 and then I bump it up 3dbs or so.

Last time i ran audyssey with the triax i had the gain on the back of the sub half way. It still went through all 8 listening positions including the sub test. Does this mean my Triax still might not have been calibrated? I was confused because i thought the intial warning that the sub was too high was just to let me know that it wouldnt be level matched which i dont want since if i did level match the sub it wouldnt be nearly as strong like i want. Should i run it again? Is there a way to know if it was calibrated?

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post #7476 of 15219 Old 11-27-2013, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

Last time i ran audyssey with the triax i had the gain on the back of the sub half way. It still went through all 8 listening positions including the sub test. Does this mean my Triax still might not have been calibrated? I was confused because i thought the intial warning that the sub was too high was just to let me know that it wouldnt be level matched which i dont want since if i did level match the sub it wouldnt be nearly as strong like i want. Should i run it again? Is there a way to know if it was calibrated?

Ideally you want the sub gain in the -5 - 0db range. So you should calibrate the sub so it audyssey shows -10, then you can add back 5db or so to be within that range. This is what I do since I like to run my subs hot. I also get the most output out of my subs configured this way. Must be because the subs are getting the cleanest signal from my avr. I have noticed setting the sub below -5 or above 0 clips the signal before the subs are at thier limits.
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post #7477 of 15219 Old 11-27-2013, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Ideally you want the sub gain in the -5 - 0db range. So you should calibrate the sub so it audyssey shows -10, then you can add back 5db or so to be within that range. This is what I do since I like to run my subs hot. I also get the most output out of my subs configured this way. Must be because the subs are getting the cleanest signal from my avr. I have noticed setting the sub below -5 or above 0 clips the signal before the subs are at thier limits.

I get it, so i should run Audyssey and do the level match with the sub so that it gets calibrated correctly. If it shows -12dbs then ill just turn the gain down on the back of the sub until its level matched then let it go through the normal process. Then after its finished and the calculations are saved I can turn up the gain to where i want. Is this correct?

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post #7478 of 15219 Old 11-27-2013, 08:43 AM
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Lower your sub gain, run Audessey for 1st position, hit skip if it complains your sub is too loud. After it finishes the 1st position, click calculate then check the level to see where it puts your sub trim. As long as it's not -12db, you are ok but I prefer my sub trim to be -6db for the reason Basshead mentioned. Rerun Audessey with all 8 positions after that.
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post #7479 of 15219 Old 11-27-2013, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

I get it, so i should run Audyssey and do the level match with the sub so that it gets calibrated correctly. If it shows -12dbs then ill just turn the gain down on the back of the sub until its level matched then let it go through the normal process. Then after its finished and the calculations are saved I can turn up the gain to where i want. Is this correct?
Some folks reported better result skipping the level matching step. Once Audyssey completes, check your cross over, raise them up a bit or to 80hz. If you want more bass, go to set up/audio to bump up your sub trim, never touch your Triax sub gain/volume again.
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post #7480 of 15219 Old 11-27-2013, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

I've noticed this same "flapping" sound with my sealed XS15s as well. In one scene in particular - War of the Worlds, Pod Emerges, the first 2 steps the pod takes out of the hole. Does this mean I need more subs??? Currently have 4.

I asked here a few pages back if anyone else noticed it with the same scene but got no response.

I have overdriven the subs and heard the flapping that produces....this doesn't seem to sound quite the same, I think it may be in the sound effect itself. Kind of hard to tell if it's still there when I turn it down though.

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How loud did you have it?

Anywhere above -15 and I get the "flapping"....but only on that one part of that one scene.

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that might be a bad mic, when i got my Onkyo 818 it allwYs set my speaks at 75db and sub at 68db and i mean EVERY time, then i ordered a new mic and there both at 75db.

Really? I suppose it might be worth a shot. Can anyone suggest where I could get one for my Denon?

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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Thats probably because he is running the sub hot with dynamic eq. Most will agree that calibrating the sub @ 75db leaves the sub(s) sounding anemic. Most like bass 5-10db Hot. If thas the case you need to add more subwoofage to reduce the load on the sub. Sealed will not have port noise but will make mechanical noises when pushed to its limits...what he is hearing is most likely the soft limiter kicking in causing the flapping sound.

My subs are calibrated to ~76db according to REW and my Radio Shack SPL meter (using internal AVR test tone) - they sound anything but anemic - and for me, this is 6db "hot". It's +6db from where Audyssey set it at least....but, if my mic is bad then maybe I'm not running hot at all.....it's all very confusing to me.

I have not heard any mechanical noise, but I agree that the flapping could be the soft limiter kicking in. I'm going to do some more testing with that WOTW scene at different trim levels and find out just what's going on here. I still suspect it's the effect itself...would be great if someone else could check that scene out and report back.
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post #7481 of 15219 Old 11-27-2013, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

Lower your sub gain, run Audessey for 1st position, hit skip if it complains your sub is too loud. After it finishes the 1st position, click calculate then check the level to see where it puts your sub trim. As long as it's not -12db, you are ok but I prefer my sub trim to be -6db for the reason Basshead mentioned. Rerun Audessey with all 8 positions after that.

Sounds simple. Just out of curiousity, why is it preferred to adjust the sub with the trim verse from the gain on the back of the sub? I always thought it did the same thing but i could be wrong?

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post #7482 of 15219 Old 11-27-2013, 09:17 AM
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because the filters audyssey set are based on the level the sub was measured at during cal. if you adjust trim in the avr audyssey will compensate for it. if you go to the triax audyssey wont "know" somthing has changed.

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post #7483 of 15219 Old 11-27-2013, 09:38 AM
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I'm a WOTW Emergence Scene Pro (don't try this at home) with a lowly, single XV15, in the front corner of a 23x16x8 room, set 4db hot from what Audyssey XT calibrated and DEQ is OFF. Since I have been running DEQ OFF because of some high frequency issues that I believe it to cause, I bumped my sub up 4db to compensate for me being used to DEQ and I watch the scene at -5db MV and I hear no flapping. Just my room getting ready to collapse. I have laid right next to my sub during the whole scene and while it didn't sound like it does when I'm 14' away in my MLP, I didn't hear any gnarly mechanical noise that would lead me to believe that I am over driving it. I'm definitely not a fan of near field sub placement that's for sure. Just my opinion.

I'm sure if you put your head next to an IMAX sub it would also sound different than it does when seated in the center of the theater. cool.gif

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post #7484 of 15219 Old 11-27-2013, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by swtguy View Post

I do have dynamic EQ on. I always leave it on. Is there a reason not to?
Probably not. Chuffing occurs when the driver is being pushed too hard, which will happen if there's too much EQ boost in the low end. The benefit to dynamic EQ is that it boosts the lows, and highs, at low listening levels, to compensate for equal loudness needs, but when the volume is turned up the EQ is turned down.

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post #7485 of 15219 Old 11-27-2013, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

I'm a WOTW Emergence Scene Pro (don't try this at home) with a lowly, single XV15, in the front corner of a 23x16x8 room, set 4db hot from what Audyssey XT calibrated and DEQ is OFF. Since I have been running DEQ OFF because of some high frequency issues that I believe it to cause, I bumped my sub up 4db to compensate for me being used to DEQ and I watch the scene at -5db MV and I hear no flapping. Just my room getting ready to collapse. I have laid right next to my sub during the whole scene and while it didn't sound like it does when I'm 14' away in my MLP, I didn't hear any gnarly mechanical noise that would lead me to believe that I am over driving it. I'm definitely not a fan of near field sub placement that's for sure. Just my opinion.

I'm sure if you put your head next to an IMAX sub it would also sound different than it does when seated in the center of the theater. cool.gif

Awesome D Bone!

Just to be clear - I'm not hearing any mechanical noise either, and the only "flapping" I am hearing is on the first two steps the pod takes out of the hole. Can you confirm that there is no sort of "flapping" or "pulsating" sound on those two steps??
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post #7486 of 15219 Old 11-27-2013, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

Awesome D Bone!

Just to be clear - I'm not hearing any mechanical noise either, and the only "flapping" I am hearing is on the first two steps the pod takes out of the hole. Can you confirm that there is no sort of "flapping" or "pulsating" sound on those two steps??

At the MLP or laying next to it like it were near field placed? I can confirm now none at my MLP.

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post #7487 of 15219 Old 11-27-2013, 10:11 AM
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Well, I've never tried laying next to 'em. smile.gif

My rear subs are about 2' and 4' away from my MLP. Like I said, I'm gonna sit down and do some serious testing tonight. Previously playing the scene and hearing the flapping, I just said to myself, "hmmm...that's strange", but I haven't actually tried changing some settings and doing some testing.
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post #7488 of 15219 Old 11-27-2013, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

Awesome D Bone!

Just to be clear - I'm not hearing any mechanical noise either, and the only "flapping" I am hearing is on the first two steps the pod takes out of the hole. Can you confirm that there is no sort of "flapping" or "pulsating" sound on those two steps??

You could take a video recording of the sub driver during the scene. Audio-wise, a smartphone will apply auto-gain and probably not saturate. You will of course cut bass, but what you're hearing is probably distortion or artifacts at higher frequencies. Posting it, we'll be able to quickly tell if it's normal or not, and you'll be able to send it to PSA if you want more advice.

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post #7489 of 15219 Old 11-27-2013, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by neutro View Post

You could take a video recording of the sub driver during the scene. Audio-wise, a smartphone will apply auto-gain and probably not saturate. You will of course cut bass, but what you're hearing is probably distortion or artifacts at higher frequencies. Posting it, we'll be able to quickly tell if it's normal or not, and you'll be able to send it to PSA if you want more advice.

Good plan, will do!
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post #7490 of 15219 Old 11-27-2013, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

because the filters audyssey set are based on the level the sub was measured at during cal. if you adjust trim in the avr audyssey will compensate for it. if you go to the triax audyssey wont "know" somthing has changed.[/quote

I feel dumb, i didnt know that. So have the sub level matched during audyssey to have it calibrated correctly. Lets say i bring the gain down alot from behind the sub to get it to reference range during calibration, after all is said and done, how much potential can i bring the sub up to from the trim. If i bring the gain down that much ill barely hear the sub so im wondering if after I increase the trim to max, how much hot am i really running the sub since the gain will have to be left so low?

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Here's what I do Blackmambakila, right or wrong;

Figure just how "hot" you like to run your sub(s) - in my case, it's 6.5db.

I run Audyssey (first position only) repeatedly hitting "calculate" each time and adjusting the gain on the sub(s) until I get a sub trim in the AVR of -6.5db. Only then do I run all 8 Audyssey positions.

Then, I bump up the internal AVR sub trim to "0db" and I'm good - subs are running 6.5db hot.

Hope this helps!
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post #7492 of 15219 Old 11-27-2013, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

Here's what I do Blackmambakila, right or wrong;

Figure just how "hot" you like to run your sub(s) - in my case, it's 6.5db.

I run Audyssey (first position only) repeatedly hitting "calculate" each time and adjusting the gain on the sub(s) until I get a sub trim in the AVR of -6.5db. Only then do I run all 8 Audyssey positions.

Then, I bump up the internal AVR sub trim to "0db" and I'm good - subs are running 6.5db hot.

Hope this helps!

Cool, i might try that way just to see smile.gif

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post #7493 of 15219 Old 11-27-2013, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by swtguy View Post

I do have dynamic EQ on. I always leave it on. Is there a reason not to?
turn off Dynamic EQ like i said, i tested it out with my Omni Mic and it does boost the low end about 4 to 6db, i bet you wont have the Port Chuffing if you turn it off smile.gif.

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I like DynEQ on as I almost never listen at reference level. Have not heard any port noise with it on.
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post #7495 of 15219 Old 11-27-2013, 03:20 PM
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Well, there's that....but you'll also be giving up the benefits of Dynamic EQ.

IMO, unless you always watch at reference level, Dyn EQ should be left on.

EDIT: Cowboys beat me to it! smile.gif
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post #7496 of 15219 Old 11-27-2013, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

Well, there's that....but you'll also be giving up the benefits of Dynamic EQ.

IMO, unless you always watch at reference level, Dyn EQ should be left on.

EDIT: Cowboys beat me to it! smile.gif
Even then there is no reason to turn it off since it is disabled when listening at reference

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post #7497 of 15219 Old 11-27-2013, 04:04 PM
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I saw a graph that showed that DEQ boosted bass by 10db over DEQ OFF. If that graph was correct, and DEQ is boosting 10db, and then you're boosting 6.5 more db, then it seems obvious to me why you might hear some 'flapping'. I tested WOTW ES moments ago with DEQ OFF and a 4db boost @ -5db MV, and heard no such flapping even right next to the speaker. I did hear some cabinet vibrations of some sort though. These weird cabinet noises can't be heard at my MLP under normal circumstances, just with my head inches from the bottom of the sub.


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post #7498 of 15219 Old 11-27-2013, 05:21 PM
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I saw a graph that showed that DEQ boosted bass by 10db over DEQ OFF. If that graph was correct, and DEQ is boosting 10db, and then you're boosting 6.5 more db, then it seems obvious to me why you might hear some 'flapping'. I tested WOTW ES moments ago with DEQ OFF and a 4db boost @ -5db MV, and heard no such flapping even right next to the speaker. I did hear some cabinet vibrations of some sort though. These weird cabinet noises can't be heard at my MLP under normal circumstances, just with my head inches from the bottom of the sub.

All of this has been very informative, now I will have to try these steps out myself. I have had issues with a loud popping noise while watching certain movies. Maybe taking these steps will eliminate this noise.
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post #7499 of 15219 Old 11-27-2013, 05:57 PM
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All of this has been very informative, now I will have to try these steps out myself. I have had issues with a loud popping noise while watching certain movies. Maybe taking these steps will eliminate this noise.

I hope you get your noise issues resolved. With my dual XV15s, I have the gain on each sub at the 3 o'clock position and my the sub level on my Oppo 105 at 0. I am using the analog connections and most of the time I turn the trim down on my Emotiva UMC-200 about 2-2.5 db for music and about 1db for movies. The results are very good so far.

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post #7500 of 15219 Old 11-27-2013, 06:18 PM
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I hope you get your noise issues resolved. With my dual XV15s, I have the gain on each sub at the 3 o'clock position and my the sub level on my Oppo 105 at 0. I am using the analog connections and most of the time I turn the trim down on my Emotiva UMC-200 about 2-2.5 db for music and about 1db for movies. The results are very good so far.
Thanks, I hope so to. It doesn't do it all the time just during certain scenes in a few movies I watched recently with my son.
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