Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 268 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #8011 of 32253 Old 01-07-2014, 09:06 AM
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Well I will join in on this thread. I'm looking at a sub upgrade later this year (sometime around early Summer). I have been sold for a while not on the HSU VTF-15, but then I discovered the PSA XV15 and (as often happens on this site) I'm doubting my original decision. To give you all an idea of my current setup, I've got EMP tek e55ti towers in the front (paired with their center) with a BIC F12 as my sub. I've got a Denon 2112 running as my receiver (as well as some surround speakers that also need an upgrade, but that doesn't much matter here). The room is decent sized, it's a family room that opens up into the kitchen, however room acoustics right now are not that much of a consideration for me. I expect that in the next 18-24 months I'll likely be moving into a bigger house anyway, so I'm not going to obsess over my current room. So with that out of the way, here are my questions (mind you, I'm working my way through all 268 pages of the thread, this is more of a sneak peak). I hope it goes without saying, but I assuming a single PSA XV15 will substantially out preform my BIC? While the BIC isn't a bad subwoofer, it leaves something to be desired when I get down to the real low frequencies. Thing becomes pretty useless around 30hz.

Now the plan is that I would likely run the BIC sub as a second sub (partially because I'm trying to convince my wife that I'm not replacing the F12, but rather adding a second sub). Eventually I might be able to swing a second XV15, but for now I enjoy being married and I think a second would hurt the chances of my marriage continuing. smile.gif Anybody here have any advice on how these two subs play together? I figured the XV15 will dig much deeper, and the BIC could help give me some extra headroom on the mid bass frequencies. My other questions on on peoples thoughts on the XV15 with or without the base. What are the pros of dropping an extra $100 on a base? Finally what are just some general thoughts on the sound quality of this sub?

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post #8012 of 32253 Old 01-07-2014, 09:18 AM
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Im going to make a totally uneducated guess that it may have to do with optimal enclosure size for  that size woofer.  If you look at the 12" plus series, those suckers are already 4 ft tall.   Perhaps a 15" would increase the height and/or diameter to a point where that setup just becomes unwieldy and loses its key advantage.....a small footprint.

I think you're right. The ported enclosure size will need to be larger -- usually taller -- for a 15"+ driver which can substantially add to the cost of shipping. They might also be potentially tippy, depending on the design. The "water heater" doesn't appeal to most, although the case can made for its clever design advantages and the interest DIYers had with them back in the day.

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post #8013 of 32253 Old 01-07-2014, 10:03 AM
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Well I will join in on this thread. I'm looking at a sub upgrade later this year (sometime around early Summer). I have been sold for a while not on the HSU VTF-15, but then I discovered the PSA XV15 and (as often happens on this site) I'm doubting my original decision. To give you all an idea of my current setup, I've got EMP tek e55ti towers in the front (paired with their center) with a BIC F12 as my sub. I've got a Denon 2112 running as my receiver (as well as some surround speakers that also need an upgrade, but that doesn't much matter here). The room is decent sized, it's a family room that opens up into the kitchen, however room acoustics right now are not that much of a consideration for me. I expect that in the next 18-24 months I'll likely be moving into a bigger house anyway, so I'm not going to obsess over my current room. So with that out of the way, here are my questions (mind you, I'm working my way through all 268 pages of the thread, this is more of a sneak peak). I hope it goes without saying, but I assuming a single PSA XV15 will substantially out preform my BIC? While the BIC isn't a bad subwoofer, it leaves something to be desired when I get down to the real low frequencies. Thing becomes pretty useless around 30hz.

Now the plan is that I would likely run the BIC sub as a second sub (partially because I'm trying to convince my wife that I'm not replacing the F12, but rather adding a second sub). Eventually I might be able to swing a second XV15, but for now I enjoy being married and I think a second would hurt the chances of my marriage continuing. smile.gif Anybody here have any advice on how these two subs play together? I figured the XV15 will dig much deeper, and the BIC could help give me some extra headroom on the mid bass frequencies. My other questions on on peoples thoughts on the XV15 with or without the base. What are the pros of dropping an extra $100 on a base? Finally what are just some general thoughts on the sound quality of this sub?

I have used dual XV15s with the Emp Tek speakers. They blend well and I think you'll be happy. I would sell the F12. The XV-15 is so much more subwoofer it's not funny. I had a PL-200 which is basically an F12 (or a slight step up) and there really is no comparison. I think the F12 will only muddy up the bass and will probably play havoc with any room correction software that EQs the subs.

From talking with Tom the base is almost all aesthetics. While theoretically there are some advantages chances are you won't hear a difference. Go with whatever look you like better. I have the base on both of mine and if it didn't cost money to test it without I probably would. I prefer the look without the base.
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post #8014 of 32253 Old 01-07-2014, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by AllenA07 View Post

Well I will join in on this thread. I'm looking at a sub upgrade later this year (sometime around early Summer). I have been sold for a while not on the HSU VTF-15, but then I discovered the PSA XV15 and (as often happens on this site) I'm doubting my original decision. To give you all an idea of my current setup, I've got EMP tek e55ti towers in the front (paired with their center) with a BIC F12 as my sub. I've got a Denon 2112 running as my receiver (as well as some surround speakers that also need an upgrade, but that doesn't much matter here). The room is decent sized, it's a family room that opens up into the kitchen, however room acoustics right now are not that much of a consideration for me. I expect that in the next 18-24 months I'll likely be moving into a bigger house anyway, so I'm not going to obsess over my current room. So with that out of the way, here are my questions (mind you, I'm working my way through all 268 pages of the thread, this is more of a sneak peak). I hope it goes without saying, but I assuming a single PSA XV15 will substantially out preform my BIC? While the BIC isn't a bad subwoofer, it leaves something to be desired when I get down to the real low frequencies. Thing becomes pretty useless around 30hz.

Now the plan is that I would likely run the BIC sub as a second sub (partially because I'm trying to convince my wife that I'm not replacing the F12, but rather adding a second sub). Eventually I might be able to swing a second XV15, but for now I enjoy being married and I think a second would hurt the chances of my marriage continuing. smile.gif Anybody here have any advice on how these two subs play together? I figured the XV15 will dig much deeper, and the BIC could help give me some extra headroom on the mid bass frequencies. My other questions on on peoples thoughts on the XV15 with or without the base. What are the pros of dropping an extra $100 on a base? Finally what are just some general thoughts on the sound quality of this sub?

I had a Cadence CSX-12 II before my XV15, and the difference is staggering. The Cadence wasn't a slouch from 35hz on up, but I never knew what I was missing below that. The first time I played WOTW with my XV15, I giggled like a little girl..............It felt like someone was behind my chair shaking it. A single XV15 is going to make you very happy, although on this thread, you are going to be advised to buy 1, 2, or even more. Since my system is living room based, and I too want to remained married, the lowly, single XV15 will just have to do. wink.gif

Personally I would never try to marry your Bic with the XV15. The XV15 will far out do the Bic, and in every way. If I were you, I would simply plugin the XV15, run your room setup program, throw in WOTW and sit back and smile...........or in my case, giggle.

As for the base, I personally like the look without the base. I guess it falls to your personal preference.

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post #8015 of 32253 Old 01-07-2014, 10:11 AM
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Funny thing how this site works. When I first started looking I was thinking about another BIC F12. Funny how that has somehow turned into me wanting to drop nearly $1000 on a sub.

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post #8016 of 32253 Old 01-07-2014, 10:16 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AllenA07 View Post

Funny thing how this site works. When I first started looking I was thinking about another BIC F12. Funny how that has somehow turned into me wanting to drop nearly $1000 on a sub.

Don't worry. Hang around here long enough and you should be able to increase that number. tongue.gif
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post #8017 of 32253 Old 01-07-2014, 10:17 AM
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Funny thing how this site works. When I first started looking I was thinking about another BIC F12. Funny how that has somehow turned into me wanting to drop nearly $1000 on a sub.

This site is hard on the wallet! biggrin.gif

I started looking at sub options in the $1000-$1500 range and ended up spending $3000! eek.gif
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post #8018 of 32253 Old 01-07-2014, 10:25 AM
 
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but all those recommendations of duals etc have HUGE merit
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post #8019 of 32253 Old 01-07-2014, 05:13 PM
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A Perfect Circle- Thirteenth Step “Song” The Noose

I’ve already described captions of this song in some of my earlier remarks. It’s structured in such a way that it incrementally builds up and gets louder and heavier with each passing verse. A precise & powerful kick drum sets in ~ 1:50 min mark….you can both hear & feel it. During this point the song envelopes the listener until the 3:30 mark where it comes to a crescendo. The bass appears to decline but more IMO as a result of the rest of the song catching up and playing at the same levels from the earlier bass sequence. It’s personally one of my favorite demo songs…..deep, loud, powerful and the lyrics make you think a bit as well.
Between the 2 subs the SB13 appeared more balanced from start to finish…likely due to the quieter segments found early on in this song and able to define those finer details with a bit more panache. The XS30… though…..handled that kick drum sequence & more powerful stages in the latter portion of that song with slightly more impact/ or oomph from what I could tell. Really boils down to what the listener wants or needs.





AWOLNTION- Megalithic Symphony “Song” Sail

My daughter recommended this tune around 2011. It quickly grew on me because of the deep bass content …It starts with a very cool rift and 20 seconds later wham…deep powerful & uncontrolled bass. Imo this was exactly what I wanted to hear and exploit with my XS30 and it didn’t disappoint me. Nearing the 20 second mark you just get this loud thud or wall of sound slamming into you….reminds me of the calm just before the storm when that first prevailing wind hits you outta nowhere….
I know the SB13U will have a tactical advantage in certain instances more so at low to moderate listening levels. At much louder volumes you can witness the massive excursion capability and composure of the excellent Svs ultra-driver…it delivers accuracy clean bass even under duress. I’d love to hear this song cranked with a PB13U but the simple reality here is the XS30 really shone the lower I went on the volume -(10dbs) the better it sounded…. digging in and filling my room…high marks for me.
Fwiw…here is the snapshot of “Sail” taken from the subwoofer song of the day recommendation thread…some may say…meh…others will agree, it has plenty of bass for main-stream music content. Good test for any sub comparison....Id say.



File source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eaglesfarewell.jpg


The Eagles-Farewell One Live From Melbourne Tour “Song” Hotel California & Dirty Laundry in DTS

Hotel California opens with that magnificent trumpet solo followed by guitars, cymbals and more importantly those decisive opening drum kicks from Don Henley. Fast, articulate and powerful…I’ve heard it live and it sounded fantastic and it sounded just as good in my living room. Both subs handled it with ease but the Svs sounds just a tad better because of the ease it can play those notes with no lingering effects and ability to stop on demand. With Dirty Laundry much of the same, both subs handle each song admirably…preferring ever so slightly the Svs with both.
Having seen the Eagles” Live” ….this Dvd comes as close to being there live…as you’ll ever hear. When these guys are on their game & more importantly getting along…they’re a tight unit and play perfectly on cue. Awesome guitar work performed by Joe Walsh and the backup members of the band. A must have DVD…if you want HQ recording as part of your collection. The entire DTS mastered tracks are fantastic.

Disclaimer...if you will.....I’d gladly purchase the SB13U to spearhead any 2.1 music set up….some Ascend 2's and SB13U would be awesome...lol. Maybe...one day since I have a small collection of well recorded CD and BRD formats I might do that but only under the right situation or circumstances.


Anyhow, here is another Artist I been recently discovered and I really like.





Trace Bundy- Adapt CD-Dvd

His style of play is strictly acoustic guitar with this CD, each song appears carefully mastered and sounds great. The CD also came with a 5.1 DD DVD disc if you like multichannel audio. I use this CD because of how good is sounds and not because of actual bass content. Using the first 4 tracks from this CD exclusively when listening to the XS30. With each recording the XS30 blended seamlessly with my mains..the bass never once sounded bloated or boomy....so the transition in going from music to movies...is flawless.

Of course, this took some planning and effort but at the end of the day... I must be happy with choices I’ve made. My goal going through all of this was to closely augment my XS30 along with my mains and not worry so much about the Svs SB13U and how it sounded. We know this diminutive sub can handle almost anything you throw its way. I would give it a marginal advantage with music and some degree movies because of its ability play clean and stress free. However…I’m a big fan of actions flicks or adventure movies and what challenges they could present a smaller sub and the XS30 is better equipped to handle those types of situations given circumstances and why I opted for the XS30 and glad its in my home!

I know, what you guys are thinking...more Bill...drivel...lol

Hey this is not easy at least for me...I can admit that. Im hoping to arrange for another local member to come by...I'd really like to take some sweeps of both subs in my home...I have contacted Cross Spectrum Labs regarding the UMIK-1...my only concern is how my Anthem will see the data since it built with its own software.
Hopefully he'll be able to make it since he is much more versed in doing this sort of thing.

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post #8020 of 32253 Old 01-07-2014, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by AllenA07 View Post

Funny thing how this site works. When I first started looking I was thinking about another BIC F12. Funny how that has somehow turned into me wanting to drop nearly $1000 on a sub.

Here is another vote for dual XV15s. I have the baseless models but they are both on Auralex Gramma risers and the results are very good to me. MC music sounds really good and movies have plenty of impact.

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post #8021 of 32253 Old 01-07-2014, 07:11 PM
 
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latest measurements:

dual xs30's auddy on:


full range w xs30's L and R mains:
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post #8022 of 32253 Old 01-07-2014, 07:50 PM
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Very impressive Brian.  How does it sound is the real question?

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Very impressive Brian.  How does it sound is the real question?
Thanks smile.gif. One word...

AMAZING!!!!!
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post #8024 of 32253 Old 01-07-2014, 08:05 PM
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Here is another vote for dual XV15s. I have the baseless models but they are both on Auralex Gramma risers and the results are very good to me. MC music sounds really good and movies have plenty of impact.

How much did the auralex improve it? Was thinking of getting one
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post #8025 of 32253 Old 01-07-2014, 09:41 PM
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How much did the auralex improve it? Was thinking of getting one

It seemed to even out the bass a bit throughout the room and maybe a little less of a boomy sound. I got them mainly because I live in an apt with someone below me. So far no complaints from anyone.

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post #8026 of 32253 Old 01-07-2014, 09:44 PM
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Is it more for people below you or will it help people as well
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post #8027 of 32253 Old 01-08-2014, 06:51 AM
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Is it more for people below you or will it help people as well
It will have no effect on transmission of low frequencies through the floor. For that matter, within the room most of its effect is Placebo Effect. No one here, or anywhere else AFAIK, who's claimed to have heard a difference with and without them has ever posted any measurement data to confirm it. That includes Auralex, and if there was any data one would think that they'd be the first to post it.
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post #8028 of 32253 Old 01-08-2014, 09:18 AM
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latest measurements:

dual xs30's auddy on:


full range w xs30's L and R mains:

Congrats....oh, and you suck. wink.gif

JK, beautiful looking graphs!
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Congrats....oh, and you suck. wink.gif

JK, beautiful looking graphs!

haha...thanks!
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post #8030 of 32253 Old 01-08-2014, 01:08 PM
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Well after much thought I have decided that I will be eventually joining the PSA family. I like everything that I've seen with the XV15, and think the reviews sound fantastic. I had been moving towards the HSU VTF-15H, but this one seems to be a bit cheaper with equal (if not better) output. Now I can't really bite on it until closer to June (new baby coming in February means funds are a bit tighter then normal until this summer), but I think this is going to be a very good addition to my HT setup. Not 100% sure yet what I will do with my old BIC F12. I'm thinking that I might go ahead and play around with using it as a second sub, even though I'm pretty sure I know the ultimate outcome.

I won't be doing a dual design like some of you, but I'm pretty sure a single XV15 will sound a bit better then my previous plan of adding a second BIC F12. smile.gif

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post #8031 of 32253 Old 01-08-2014, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by AllenA07 View Post

Well after much thought I have decided that I will be eventually joining the PSA family. I like everything that I've seen with the XV15, and think the reviews sound fantastic. I had been moving towards the HSU VTF-15H, but this one seems to be a bit cheaper with equal (if not better) output. Now I can't really bite on it until closer to June (new baby coming in February means funds are a bit tighter then normal until this summer), but I think this is going to be a very good addition to my HT setup. Not 100% sure yet what I will do with my old BIC F12. I'm thinking that I might go ahead and play around with using it as a second sub, even though I'm pretty sure I know the ultimate outcome.

I won't be doing a dual design like some of you, but I'm pretty sure a single XV15 will sound a bit better then my previous plan of adding a second BIC F12. smile.gif

I got my XV15 last Monday. I'm very happy with the bass it provides. It put my dual Klipsch RW-12D to shame. I'm saving up for a second one.
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post #8032 of 32253 Old 01-08-2014, 02:29 PM
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 I like everything that I've seen with the XV15, and think the reviews sound fantastic. I had been moving towards the HSU VTF-15H, but this one seems to be a bit cheaper with equal (if not better) output. 
 

I think you are right that the XV15 is a very good sub for the money.  However, The VTF-15 has much higher output.  It is also much larger and $200 higher.

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post #8033 of 32253 Old 01-08-2014, 04:46 PM
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I don't know if much higher would be a correct statement. I think Ricci tested both and they were pretty close with an edge to the hsu

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post #8034 of 32253 Old 01-08-2014, 07:37 PM
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I don't know if much higher would be a correct statement. I think Ricci tested both and they were pretty close with an edge to the hsu

Looks to be up 3-4 dB across the board looking at Ricci's tests of the two subs for CEA2010 short term averages.  When looking at long term the difference is a bit higher, but burst is closer.  This is what I based my statement of more output on.  

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post #8035 of 32253 Old 01-08-2014, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

Looks to be up 3-4 dB across the board looking at Ricci's tests of the two subs for CEA2010 short term averages.  When looking at long term the difference is a bit higher, but burst is closer.  This is what I based my statement of more output on.  

I'm not seeing 3-4 dbs across the board as you stated the highest variance is right around the 20-31.5 region and it's only 2.8 dbs. I am using the vtf15h 2 port numbers since that it the native tune for that sub...I think...even though it has variable tunning options which in my case are useless.

40-125 ~2.6db
40-80 ~1.0db
31.5-100~2.1db
20-125 ~2.6db
20-31.5 ~2.8db
16-100 ~1.4db
16-63 ~0.7db
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post #8036 of 32253 Old 01-08-2014, 08:41 PM
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Select the vtf15 to look at the review.  Select 2 port mode.  Select psa xv 15 in system measurement comparison.  Scroll down and look at maximum long term output.

 

I was able to "see" a better comparison when overlaying both subs output on a single chart.  The xv15 has a somewhat sharp peak on output centered at 50Hz, whereas the HSU seems to have a much flatter curve resulting in substantially more output at most other frequencies.

 

On this chart you can see MUCH larger variances in output, but yes, depending on which test you look at it may only be 2-2.5 dB higher(such as burst or short term)

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post #8037 of 32253 Old 01-08-2014, 08:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

Select the vtf15 to look at the review.  Select 2 port mode.  Select psa xv 15 in system measurement comparison.  Scroll down and look at maximum long term output.

I was able to "see" a better comparison when overlaying both subs output on a single chart.  The xv15 has a somewhat sharp peak on output centered at 50Hz, whereas the HSU seems to have a much flatter curve resulting in substantially more output at most other frequencies.

On this chart you can see MUCH larger variances in output, but yes, depending on which test you look at it may only be 2-2.5 dB higher(such as burst or short term)

First off the did you add the 1-1.5db correction factor for the mic placement in relation to the driver on the XV15? Second I agree in 2 port mode the VTF-15 outperforms the XV15 but is down 5db by 16hz. Put the VTF-15 in 1 port mode then it matches the XV15 extension and actually extends a bit deeper, but THD goes up significanty along with compression, and overall output is very similar with a slight advantage to the XV15 in the mid bass region.
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post #8038 of 32253 Old 01-08-2014, 09:04 PM
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The 1 - 1.5 db correction factor is a great point concerning the XV15, that does close up some of the gap.  I would not run a sub in a mode that hurts performance almost across the board, so i was looking at 2 port mode.

 

Regardless, the vtf15 still holds a quite substantial advantage in the long term testing, as can easily be seen on the comparison chart.  However, I don't know which test correlates to real world output.  Is it max burst testing? Is it short term testing? Or is it the long term max numbers?  I personally don't know.  Would be interesting to hear some expert input on which measurement correlates more closely with real world output.

 

If burst testing is the most accurate measure of real world performance, then that is a MUCH different picture as compared to the max long term numbers.

 

Regardless, I think the xv15 is a very good $800 sub.

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post #8039 of 32253 Old 01-08-2014, 09:07 PM
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The only thing I find impressive about the VTF15 is the amount of output they get out of such a cheaply made driver. It has a large motor to it but other then that the quality doesn't look all the great. It's using a basic stamped steel basket for crying out loud.

Just look at the pictures of it on the data-bass.com web page. Its funny how I read comments from a small few about the quality of the PSA drivers not being that great, but nothings said about the quality of the VTF15's driver. Go figure.
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post #8040 of 32253 Old 01-08-2014, 09:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

The 1 - 1.5 db correction factor is a great point concerning the XV15, that does close up some of the gap.  I would not run a sub in a mode that hurts performance almost across the board, so i was looking at 2 port mode.

Regardless, the vtf15 still holds a quite substantial advantage in the long term testing, as can easily be seen on the comparison chart.  However, I don't know which test correlates to real world output.  Is it max burst testing? Is it short term testing? Or is it the long term max numbers?  I personally don't know.  Would be interesting to hear some expert input on which measurement correlates more closely with real world output.

If burst testing is the most accurate measure of real world performance, then that is a MUCH different picture as compared to the max long term numbers.

Regardless, I think the xv15 is a very good $800 sub.

so you are making a biased comparison by not comparing both modes. the VTF15 trades extension for output over the XV15 in 2 port. In 1port it trades output for extension and then the driver quality and low amp power shows its face with heavy compression and high THD. So Imo depending on how you look at the data, both subs are very close in performance overall.
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