Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 31 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #901 of 29950 Old 01-08-2013, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

My dual XS15s will be here TOMORROW! Took the day off work so I could be here to greet 'em properly.
I feel like a kid on Christmas Eve. biggrin.gif

Bout as good a reason to play hookie as any. You are telling the boss the real reason for taking the day off aren't you? tongue.gif
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post #902 of 29950 Old 01-09-2013, 10:00 AM
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Oh yeah...he understands my addiction. cool.gif
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post #903 of 29950 Old 01-09-2013, 11:10 AM
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I beat Alan P by a day and tested out the XS15 last night! Must say the output levels are impressive and I like the cabinet finish. But did anyone else notice that the power cord connection on the back is not as tight as you would expect? I can wobble it up and down (with the cord staying fully plugged in).

I am also running into localization/FR issues. I can clearly tell where the LFs are coming from (one ear feels more pressurized than the other) and based on test tones from RealTraps, 50-70Hz frequencies are 10-15dbs louder than the pink noise set at 75db. Clearly I need to spend some time playing around with placement and settings. All that I did last night was run Audyssey XT32.
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post #904 of 29950 Old 01-10-2013, 09:12 AM
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Got my dual XS15s setup yesterday, set the levels individually then ran Audyssey with both subs. Watched some scenes from The Dark Knight Rises and War of the Worlds and, as Popo says, the output levels are very impressive - house-shaking. I have the subs in the exact same positions as my previous subs (Velodyne F1500s) and this may not be optimal placement for the XSs, I'm going to try some other spots when time allows. At first, I seemed to be missing the very low end that I had on my Velos. But late last night, I messed around with the crossovers and some other settings in my AVR and it seems like I'm getting better extension now, but I couldn't really crank it up...wife was in bed by then. tongue.gif Maybe they just need to break-in a bit...?

First impression on un-boxing: These things aren't as big nor as heavy as I expected. Compared to my Velos, they are pretty easy to move around the room. I love the finish, and the build quality seems to be great.

After I get them dialed in right, I'll post up my impressions of their performance.

One question regarding the Phase adjustment: I have them in opposing corners behind my seating area. Where should I set the phase on these? I couldn't tell much difference in output while turning the knob, but I didn't have another person to help me out. Currently set at 0 (I think, whatever the default was).
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post #905 of 29950 Old 01-10-2013, 09:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

One question regarding the Phase adjustment: I have them in opposing corners behind my seating area. Where should I set the phase on these? I couldn't tell much difference in output while turning the knob, but I didn't have another person to help me out. Currently set at 0 (I think, whatever the default was).

My understanding, with sound meter in hand, if you have a continuous phase control feature, twiddle the knob to the greatest sound pressure level. In my case, each sub is in an equal but counter knob positions to each other.

The left sub's knob is set to 2 o'clock and the right sub is set to 10 o'clock and this setting gives the best REW frequency sweep graph.

-
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post #906 of 29950 Old 01-10-2013, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

One question regarding the Phase adjustment: I have them in opposing corners behind my seating area. Where should I set the phase on these? I couldn't tell much difference in output while turning the knob, but I didn't have another person to help me out. Currently set at 0 (I think, whatever the default was).

Generally speaking, if the sub is behind you try 180 first. But if you can't really hear a difference then it may not matter for your placement.

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post #907 of 29950 Old 01-10-2013, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

My understanding, with sound meter in hand, if you have a continuous phase control feature, twiddle the knob to the greatest sound pressure level. In my case, each sub is in an equal but counter knob positions to each other.

The left sub's knob is set to 2 o'clock and the right sub is set to 10 o'clock and this setting gives the best REW frequency sweep graph.

-

Thanks BeeMan, I'll try that tonight with my SPL meter. Would I just use the AVRs internal test tone, or actual media (movie/music)?
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post #908 of 29950 Old 01-10-2013, 10:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

Thanks BeeMan, I'll try that tonight with my SPL meter. Would I just use the AVRs internal test tone, or actual media (movie/music)?

If you can, download a tone generator and port pure test tones to the AVR via the front RCA inputs, using your computer"s headphone jack to supply the AVR with. If that's not possible, use the AVR's pink noise generator, set the gain so the output is 70dB and then change the phase setting with measurements being taken at the main listening position. On the sound meter use "C" weight and "S" or slow averaging.

It helps if you can sit at the main listening position and have someone move the dial for you so you can see the change at the main listening position in realtime.
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post #909 of 29950 Old 01-10-2013, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

If you can, download a tone generator and port pure test tones to the AVR via the front RCA inputs, using your computer"s headphone jack to supply the AVR with. If that's not possible, use the AVR's pink noise generator, set the gain so the output is 70dB and then change the phase setting with measurements being taken at the main listening position. On the sound meter use "C" weight and "S" or slow averaging.

It helps if you can sit at the main listening position and have someone move the dial for you so you can see the change at the main listening position in realtime.

Here's a method for determining polarity stolen, er, borrowed, from another Forum thread:

1. Reverse the polarity of the left speaker by swapping its leads.

2. Start playing your pink noise source into the left speaker and sub. You will want to disconnect all other speakers temporarily for this test.

3. With the RS SPL meter fixed at your listening position (and having set it to SLOW speed and C-weighting), note the SPL reading when the phase is 0.

4. Start changing the phase and note the SPL readings.

5. Pick the phase angle that gave the minimum SPL reading.

6. Reverse the speaker leads to their normal positions and reconnect the rest of your speaker system.


Since the needle on the SPL meter usually bounces around a bit while measuring bass frequencies it's often easier to find the minimum SPL using this method instead of trying to find the max SPL.
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post #910 of 29950 Old 01-10-2013, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by cvinfig View Post

Here's a method for determining polarity stolen, er, borrowed, from another Forum thread:

1. Reverse the polarity of the left speaker by swapping its leads.

2. Start playing your pink noise source into the left speaker and sub. You will want to disconnect all other speakers temporarily for this test.

3. With the RS SPL meter fixed at your listening position (and having set it to SLOW speed and C-weighting), note the SPL reading when the phase is 0.

4. Start changing the phase and note the SPL readings.

5. Pick the phase angle that gave the minimum SPL reading.

6. Reverse the speaker leads to their normal positions and reconnect the rest of your speaker system.


Since the needle on the SPL meter usually bounces around a bit while measuring bass frequencies it's often easier to find the minimum SPL using this method instead of trying to find the max SPL.


This would also work well if you don't have a meter. Our hearing is more sensitive to dips than peaks in this context.

Tom V.
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“The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten" --- Ben Franklin
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post #911 of 29950 Old 01-10-2013, 10:37 AM
 
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Sounds all well and good cvinfig, but what if you're using RCA cables to supply the signal to the subwoofer?
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post #912 of 29950 Old 01-10-2013, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Sounds all well and good cvinfig, but what if you're using RCA cables to supply the signal to the subwoofer?

That doesn't matter. The test tone is running through your receiver/processor so that both the left front speaker and sub are playing.
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post #913 of 29950 Old 01-10-2013, 11:41 AM
 
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Originally Posted by cvinfig View Post

That doesn't matter. The test tone is running through your receiver/processor so that both the left front speaker and sub are playing.

You commented about swapping the leads when you posted:

Quote:
Originally Posted by cvinfig View Post

1. Reverse the polarity of the left speaker by swapping its leads.

I thought what you posted regarded subwoofers and if using an RCA plug, how can one swap the leads? ???
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post #914 of 29950 Old 01-10-2013, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

You commented about swapping the leads when you posted: I thought what you posted regarded subwoofers and if using an RCA plug, how can one swap the leads? ???

He meant swapping the positive and negative leads on the left speaker, not the sub. By adjusting the phase on the sub your essentially doing the same thing, when you go from 0 to 180.

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post #915 of 29950 Old 01-10-2013, 12:51 PM
 
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He meant swapping the positive and negative leads on the left speaker, not the sub. By adjusting the phase on the sub your essentially doing the same thing, when you go from 0 to 180.

Thanks for the clarification. I got that the leads were being swapped. I misunderstood him to be saying that he was suggesting the swapping of the leads on the subwoofer. One would have to remove the subwoofer driver to make a lead swap. In that sense, it confused me. I'm the dizzy one walking down the hallway. tongue.gif
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post #916 of 29950 Old 01-10-2013, 01:21 PM
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I was contemplating getting 2 XV15s, but for some reason I'm attracted to the XS30 for the ULF capabilities, or maybe 2 of those. It will be 90% HT in a 4600Ft^3 room. For some reason I'm drawn to the ability to dig deepest since I'm not aiming for the absolute most output.

Any advice on this delima?
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post #917 of 29950 Old 01-10-2013, 01:34 PM
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Two VX15s roughly have the same output as one XS30. I have dual XS30s in a 2100cubic/ft room. I would say go with the XS30 if you don't mind paying a little more, you'll love them!
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post #918 of 29950 Old 01-10-2013, 02:20 PM
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I was contemplating getting 2 XV15s, but for some reason I'm attracted to the XS30 for the ULF capabilities, or maybe 2 of those. It will be 90% HT in a 4600Ft^3 room. For some reason I'm drawn to the ability to dig deepest since I'm not aiming for the absolute most output.

Any advice on this delima?

I went with dual XS 30's for my room which is roughly the same size as yours. They should be shipping in the next few days and I will post my impressions when I get them. I emailed Tom numerous times and that's what he suggested. I was leaning towards those anyway. If you're unsure, email Tom, and he will definitely help you. He's a great guy to deal with.
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post #919 of 29950 Old 01-11-2013, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

Got my dual XS15s setup yesterday, set the levels individually then ran Audyssey with both subs. Watched some scenes from The Dark Knight Rises and War of the Worlds and, as Popo says, the output levels are very impressive - house-shaking. I have the subs in the exact same positions as my previous subs (Velodyne F1500s) and this may not be optimal placement for the XSs, I'm going to try some other spots when time allows. At first, I seemed to be missing the very low end that I had on my Velos. But late last night, I messed around with the crossovers and some other settings in my AVR and it seems like I'm getting better extension now, but I couldn't really crank it up...wife was in bed by then. tongue.gif Maybe they just need to break-in a bit...?

Oh...my...god!

I've had my subs in basically the same location for almost 20 years. I determined long ago that the two corners behind my MLP was the optimum placement. Sooo...when I got my new XS15s, I assumed they would also sound best there. Boy, was I wrong!

Last night I moved the subs from behind the MLP to in-between the FL/R speakers and my TV...the difference was night-and-day. With this new placement the XSs really came to life! They now dig just as deep as the old F15s (maybe even a bit deeper), BUT with much more authority, speed and overall "smoothness". Mid-bass is sooo much better than my old subs, kicking me in the chest on a regular basis - AND this was after my wife had went to bed, so I didn't dare turn it up much more than -20.

When I first set up the XSs, I was a bit disappointed because I was not "blown away" by the XS15s (my wife even asked "what's wrong" when she got home that day)....well, that has all changed with the new placement...color me blown-away!

My old Velos in the front positions did not sound good at all. I have no idea why there would be such different response from 2 sets of 15" subs in this location, but I'm very happy about it none-the-less. biggrin.gif

Now, to try and integrate my old Velos back into the equation. cool.gif
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post #920 of 29950 Old 01-11-2013, 08:45 AM
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Good to hear Alan. I have come to realize that my XV-15 was and my XS-30 is not in the proper location. If I move a few feet from left or right I can feel and hear a major improvement in all around sound quality. I am definitely in a null right now. May try the sub crawl and will have to purchase a SPL meter. Amazing what even a few feet will do!
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post #921 of 29950 Old 01-11-2013, 08:53 AM
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Yeah, IMO a SPL meter is an essential tool for any home theater. I've had mine for over 20 years. smile.gif
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post #922 of 29950 Old 01-11-2013, 09:02 AM
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I have come to realize that my XV-15 was and my XS-30 is not in the proper location. If I move a few feet from left or right I can feel and hear a major improvement in all around sound quality. I am definitely in a null right now. May try the sub crawl and will have to purchase a SPL meter. Amazing what even a few feet will do!

Try turning it 90 degrees and see if that makes any difference.

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post #923 of 29950 Old 01-11-2013, 10:00 AM
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Just placed an order with Tom last night for a XV15. He made the decision to buy extremely easy for me.
Now the wait.....

Thanks Tom. Good talking to you last night.

Rick

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post #924 of 29950 Old 01-11-2013, 10:04 AM
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Try turning it 90 degrees and see if that makes any difference.
Jim,

I asked that in another thread and was told it made no difference. I will try it though. I had both drivers shooting into the walls instead if one in the corner and one facing the living room because of the broken grills and curious kids. Now I have the grills replaced and will try that again. I was told the null is purely the consequence of subwoofer placement.
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post #925 of 29950 Old 01-11-2013, 11:08 AM
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I asked that in another thread and was told it made no difference. I will try it though. I had both drivers shooting into the walls instead if one in the corner and one facing the living room because of the broken grills and curious kids. Now I have the grills replaced and will try that again. I was told the null is purely the consequence of subwoofer placement.

More then likely it won't, but it's something quick and easy if nothing else.

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post #926 of 29950 Old 01-11-2013, 11:20 AM
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More then likely it won't, but it's something quick and easy if nothing else.

Rotating the xs 30 probably not going to alter much as its dual opposed. I don't think rotating a downfiring sub will have much difference either as you are not really moving the acoustic source on the bottom. Rotating a front firing sub will change its orientation with the acoustic source and boundaries which can alter frequency response around the crossover and I have found it an easy way for improvement acoustically but sometimes not visually (can't see drivers, subwoofer sideways or firing into corner...). My take away is if you aren't measuring you are just guessing.smile.gif

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post #927 of 29950 Old 01-11-2013, 12:01 PM
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Rotating the xs 30 probably not going to alter much as its dual opposed. I don't think rotating a downfiring sub will have much difference either as you are not really moving the acoustic source on the bottom. Rotating a front firing sub will change its orientation with the acoustic source and boundaries which can alter frequency response around the crossover and I have found it an easy way for improvement acoustically but sometimes not visually (can't see drivers, subwoofer sideways or firing into corner...). My take away is if you aren't measuring you are just guessing.smile.gif

Agreed on the downfiring - rotation is not going to alter much there. My take on the XS30 was changing the orientation of the drivers might slightly affect were the null was, potentially minimizing it if nothing else. Long shot, but figured it was painless to try. You're oh so right about the measuring; ears can only go so far...

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Do you guys recommend a spl meter or are you more inclined to recommend the use of REW with a microphone or omnimic? I see there are many price levels for spl meters? Not sure if any old meter will do...
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post #929 of 29950 Old 01-11-2013, 01:18 PM
 
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Do you guys recommend a spl meter or are you more inclined to recommend the use of REW with a microphone or omnimic? I see there are many price levels for spl meters? Not sure if any old meter will do...

Both. One needs a sound meter to aid in the setting the gain settings on the sub and final AVR gain settings after the room analyzer has been run to set SPL levels at the main listening position. And one needs a real time analyzer (RTA) kit to be able to see what's what with a room's acoustics. Hence the both answer.

As to the price of a sound meter, they range online from some twenty bucks to under a hundred dollars. Like any other appliance, whether a microwave or a remote control, it all depends on how much you want to invest in this type of gear.
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post #930 of 29950 Old 01-11-2013, 05:18 PM
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Well my two XS30s shipped today.

My room is 1700 ft^3 (11 X 17 X 9) so I should have some fun!!!

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