Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 394 - AVS Forum
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post #11791 of 14430 Old 05-29-2014, 04:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

6 dB hot, plus a 6 dB house curve, and maybe a touch of eq near 16......so not really.  biggrin.gif   



Bear, with all of that, I think if you push it any higher than -10dB MV you might be getting real close to overdriving your subs. I have my dual XV15's running 3dB hot and sometimes I get a bit worried near reference volumes of this. Maybe I am underestimating these subs?




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post #11792 of 14430 Old 05-29-2014, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Bear, with all of that, I think if you push it any higher than -10dB MV you might be getting real close to overdriving your subs. I have my dual XV15's running 3dB hot and sometimes I get a bit worried near reference volumes of this. Maybe I am underestimating these subs?

Yes you are underestimating these subs....here is what dual XV15's were capable of in my room with no eq running 6-8db hot. How I took this measurement was by turning the subs up till the would not go any louder(fully compressing), backed them down 3db and ran the sweep.



Knock the peak down and you should be looking at 123-125db or from 25hz-80hz and 110-113db from 15-20hz with source content in most rooms
that are 2500^3 or less. smile.gif
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post #11793 of 14430 Old 05-29-2014, 06:36 AM
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wow, that's lot of output. Did you actually run this sweep at 130 dB!? I wonder how a dual XS30se's compare with this.
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Yes you are underestimating these subs....here is what dual XV15's were capable of in my room with no eq running 6-8db hot. How I took this measurement was by turning the subs up till the would not go any louder(fully compressing), backed them down 3db and ran the sweep.



Knock the peak down and you should be looking at 123-125db or from 25hz-80hz and 110-113db from 15-20hz with source content in most rooms
that are 2500^3 or less. smile.gif

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post #11794 of 14430 Old 05-29-2014, 07:39 AM
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I ran the sweep @ MV -0(reference) but i was running +6-8db hot. The only way to know is to measure...Fwiw Tom and Jim put these subs through more hell then anybody could imagine when they are tested. These subs are built and designed to handle abuse. Between the softlimiting and dsp, it would be tough to overdrive these subs to the point of destruction. Besides, REW does not run long enough to over heat the coils. Sure if you ran a 15hz sine wave test tone above the subs capability for several minutes you could melt a coil.

On a side note I will be performing some max spl sweeps with the SE drivers soon as I get time to set it up. I think what I will do is turn off the third sub and do a dual comparison, then turn on the 3rd and compare differences. REW is a fun tool! I only wish I had taken some RTA thd measurements of the old drivers so I could do a thd comparison between the two drivers.
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post #11795 of 14430 Old 05-29-2014, 07:44 AM
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When you run REW 20 sec sweep, do you change the levels? For my dual XS30's, I had the master volume set at -20 and I had to turn down the level in REW to about -16. This gave me an equivalent SPL of ~ 80 dB avg. What is the right process to run the REW calibration? I was also running to clipping headroom err/warning in REW with increased REW levels. How do you get around that? The first time I set up REW, I remember cailbrating it around 75dB.
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I ran the sweep @ MV -0(reference) but i was running +6-8db hot. The only way to know is to measure...Fwiw Tom and Jim put these subs through more hell then anybody could imagine when they are tested. These subs are built and designed to handle abuse. Between the softlimiting and dsp, it would be tough to overdrive these subs to the point of destruction. Besides, REW does not run long enough to over heat the coils. Sure if you ran a 15hz sine wave test tone above the subs capability for several minutes you could melt a coil.

On a side note I will be performing some max spl sweeps with the SE drivers soon as I get time to set it up. I think what I will do is turn off the third sub and do a dual comparison, then turn on the 3rd and compare differences. REW is a fun tool! I only wish I had taken some RTA thd measurements of the old drivers so I could do a thd comparison between the two drivers.

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post #11796 of 14430 Old 05-29-2014, 08:38 AM
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Rew is not a 20sec sweep...it is 5sec tops. I calibrate REW to my mic using a spl meter...I do this around 90-95db and after the cal is complete it says I have enough headroom to perform a 140db sweep.

What I would do is the following.

Fire up REW(with the mic hooked up in the spot you normally measure).

Turn your AVR to -10

Click on the spl tab in REW

Select calibrate(a pink noise should start playing and the spl level in db should show up)

Now place the spl meter next to the mic. (Verify that the spl meter and REW reading match...if not adjust the level to match the meter.)

Save and exit.(now a dialogue box should pop up indicating headroom available)
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post #11797 of 14430 Old 05-29-2014, 09:07 AM
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There are multiple size REW tones that can be run, I think the shortest one is 5 secs and longest is about 21 secs (1M size). As for the level in REW, do you set that to 0 or a lower value so that you can run compression sweeps as you increase these levels? I think the key is the calibration. I will try your method of calibrating it at 90 dB. Thanks!
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Rew is not a 20sec sweep...it is 5sec tops. I calibrate REW to my mic using a spl meter...I do this around 90-95db and after the cal is complete it says I have enough headroom to perform a 140db sweep.

What I would do is the following.

Fire up REW(with the mic hooked up in the spot you normally measure).

Turn your AVR to -10

Click on the spl tab in REW

Select calibrate(a pink noise should start playing and the spl level in db should show up)

Now place the spl meter next to the mic. (Verify that the spl meter and REW reading match...if not adjust the level to match the meter.)

Save and exit.(now a dialogue box should pop up indicating headroom available)

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post #11798 of 14430 Old 05-29-2014, 09:26 AM
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You should be using the standard 0-20,000khz 5sec sweep to take measurements not the other tones. smile.gif
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post #11799 of 14430 Old 05-29-2014, 09:29 AM
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It may not be a good thing running REW, Real Traps or anyother sweep with the subs hot. Depending on the number of subs and the room size, it may well be possible to damage a sub. If the MV is at 0 and you want more spl or extension, time to add a sub. There is a point when running hot that the LF is not matching the rest of the system and the SQ heads in a negative direction.
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post #11800 of 14430 Old 05-29-2014, 09:29 AM
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ohh .. I have been using the 0-200Hz tones for the subs (the only REW calibration so far. Why do you need to a test tone beyond 200 hz for the subs? If we are using speakers as well, I understand. How does running a sweep up to 200 Hz make a difference vs running it full range?
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You should be using the standard 0-20,000khz 5sec sweep to take measurements not the other tones. smile.gif

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post #11801 of 14430 Old 05-29-2014, 09:32 AM
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Makes sense Derrick. What max SPL levels would you recommend we run the REW calibrations at? - Rference master volume, no gain on sub and 0dB level in REW?
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It may not be a good thing running REW, Real Traps or anyother sweep with the subs hot. Depending on the number of subs and the room size, it may well be possible to damage a sub. If the MV is at 0 and you want more spl or extension, time to add a sub. There is a point when running hot that the LF is not matching the rest of the system and the SQ heads in a negative direction.

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post #11802 of 14430 Old 05-29-2014, 11:29 AM
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I am working from home this afternoon, so I set up REW to see whether I can do a quick sweep.

a. With the UMIK-1 cross-spectrum calibrated mic, I cannot calibrate to a higher SPL, when I click on the 'calibrate' button on SPL window REW reports that mic already has a calibration file done at 75 dB. The only way to increase this calibration level is to not use a calibration file and do it manually.

b. I tried calibrating it manually an as I was increasing the volume, at about 105 dB my entire house is shaking. I am not sure whether I want to do a full compression sweep frown.gif I don't know how you guys dared to increase the volume all the way to 120+ dB and do the sweeps.

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post #11803 of 14430 Old 05-29-2014, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flydeep View Post

I am working from home this afternoon, so I set up REW to see whether I can do a quick sweep.

a. With the UMIK-1 cross-spectrum calibrated mic, I cannot calibrate to a higher SPL, when I click on the 'calibrate' button on SPL window REW reports that mic already has a calibration file done at 75 dB. The only way to increase this calibration level is to not use a calibration file and do it manually.

b. I tried calibrating it manually an as I was increasing the volume, at about 105 dB my entire house is shaking. I am not sure whether I want to do a full compression sweep frown.gif I don't know how you guys dared to increase the volume all the way to 120+ dB and do the sweeps.

I, too, have the UMIK-1 from CS. I'm no expert and I've encountered my share of issues, but have learned a few things along the way.

1. you don't have to calibrate the UMIK. The calibration file you entered in the 'Preferences' section is exactly that, a calibration. You can skip that step in REW. As an aside, don't forget to add DSP's calibration values to the first line in the CS cal file. You have to open the CS cal file in a word editor, and then copy and paste the first line from the DSP cal file that you get off their site using your serial number. Either you've done this and you know what I'm referring to or this sounds completely foreign. If the latter I'd google the instructions...and if you can't find it send me a PM.

2. to take measurement sweeps in REW it's advised that you run it at 75 dBs. I know others run it at higher levels to test their system but that's entirely up to you. To get an accurate REW reading you only need to run it at 75 dBs.

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post #11804 of 14430 Old 05-29-2014, 12:28 PM
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Running a sweep at around 80 db will give you a good frequency response graph. I don't run the sweep past the XO. I do play around with checking for max output and run Real Trap test tones at 0, or Reference level but, I know how many watts, and amp the sub is using at all times. If you are in a large room the demand on the sub/amp will be great and what started out as fun can end up with a bum system. Remember, we don't have to duplicate the strenuous test like Josh Ricci, our subs are only ask to peak in movies which is less demanding and fine for HT. Also, Audyssee may boost the sub so, care should be taken in boosting the low end since it will eat of amp power and the extra 2-3 db may not be worth it to get a great HT experience.

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post #11805 of 14430 Old 05-29-2014, 12:37 PM
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Ok, some new information regarding break in that was being discussed.  Also people reporting that their subs "open up" and start to sound better or more impressive.  Well, check out my first eq sweep of my dual XV15se's, followed by a new measurement a few weeks later.  Picked up as much as five decibels of output down low with no changes!  I ended up having to entirely redo my eq lol.  But on the bright side, I think I got an ever better response.  I was a tad less aggressive on the bottom end.  The blue line was when the subs were brand new.  Purple was done today with same settings.

 

New eq:

 

I mainly got things a lot smoother out to 100 Hz than before, kept flat to below 16 Hz as you can see marked at 77.5 db.....Technically 75 would be the flat level due to the house curve. 

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post #11806 of 14430 Old 05-29-2014, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post

Yep, I'm talking about #2, the performance seems to keep getting better after each use.

We've heard this quite often. Surprising to me for the most part as I never put much regard into driver "break in". We'll try to get some measurements of a new driver versus something that is *well* used asap(within the next 2-3 measurement days). I'll report back..smile.gif

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Consider their ears are getting used to a "new" sub, good or bad it's retraining their ear.
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post #11807 of 14430 Old 05-29-2014, 12:59 PM
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Consider their ears are getting used to a "new" sub, good or bad it's retraining their ear.

That's what one would think, never hurts to check though. Once we setup outside we'll be able to do a couple comparisons in just 15 minutes or so.

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post #11808 of 14430 Old 05-29-2014, 01:21 PM
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I set up my XS30 pretty much by ear and when I thought I had it precisely the way I wanted, I checked the gain match with my dB meter (this is for a stereo system, not HT). I was surprised how well my ears did the job, and I'm no spring chicken. Several months later, I felt the bass was starting to override the speakers and turned the gain down on my sub until it "felt" right. Then measured again. Sure enough, I was getting the same measurements with the gain lowered. I did this again several months later with similar results.

In other words, my XS30 performed differently from the first day(s) than it does today (I purchased the sub in July of last year). And while it took quite awhile to start noticing a difference, that difference was real and not imagined. I'll be very interested in seeing what Tom comes up with.
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post #11809 of 14430 Old 05-29-2014, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

Ok, some new information regarding break in that was being discussed.  Also people reporting that their subs "open up" and start to sound better or more impressive.  Well, check out my first eq sweep of my dual XV15se's, followed by a new measurement a few weeks later.  Picked up as much as five decibels of output down low with no changes!  I ended up having to entirely redo my eq lol.  But on the bright side, I think I got an ever better response.  I was a tad less aggressive on the bottom end.  The blue line was when the subs were brand new.  Purple was done today with same settings.



New eq:



I mainly got things a lot smoother out to 100 Hz than before, kept flat to below 16 Hz as you can see marked at 77.5 db.....Technically 75 would be the flat level due to the house curve. 
Are you confident the mic is in the exact same spot as the first time?

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post #11810 of 14430 Old 05-29-2014, 01:29 PM
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16-30 is identical over 6 seating positions.  The variations above 40 are likely from that.  I lowered my eq at 16 Hz by 5 or 6 dB on the new graph. :eek: 

 


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post #11811 of 14430 Old 05-29-2014, 01:44 PM
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Now I have to decide if I want a nanoAVR after I get my surround speakers or just wait and get a monster receiver with XT32 and sub eq HT.  YPAO is doing a lousy job of flatting out my response in room over 90 Hz or so.


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post #11812 of 14430 Old 05-29-2014, 01:56 PM
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Also just a tip when doing sub responses gem graph should be unsmoothed

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post #11813 of 14430 Old 05-29-2014, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

Now I have to decide if I want a nanoAVR after I get my surround speakers or just wait and get a monster receiver with XT32 and sub eq HT.  YPAO is doing a lousy job of flatting out my response in room over 90 Hz or so.

The receiver is the brains of the operation. Without it all that brawn doesn't mean much. I need to upgrade myself and plan on opting for at least something with XT32.

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post #11814 of 14430 Old 05-29-2014, 02:02 PM
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With my two new XS15se's being delivered tomorrow becuase of the smaller size i'v got two new placement ideas. as noted a few posts ago i can go

option A... XS15se / XS30 COUCH XS30 / XS15se (there are no more end tables to consider as shown in the drawing picture. lol

option B... XS30 COUCH XS30 / XS15se moving the last 15 either spot B (as pictured.) note the knee wall(corner loaded)

option C.. XS30 COUCH XS30 with the two 15's at both B locations.....

with-out measurments i can tell you nearfield sides of couch the bass is at peak(spl meter) spot left of B corner door.... weakest hallway.

pic number two shows both spots B....






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post #11815 of 14430 Old 05-29-2014, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

Now I have to decide if I want a nanoAVR after I get my surround speakers or just wait and get a monster receiver with XT32 and sub eq HT.  YPAO is doing a lousy job of flatting out my response in room over 90 Hz or so.

I absolutely love my 4520CI...

Panasonic 65" plasma*

Denon 4520* 

PSB T45* PSB B15* PSB C60*

Dual PSA XS30* Dual PSA XS15se*

Squeezbox*

Niles ZR-6 6 Source, 6 room Audio Reciever*

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post #11816 of 14430 Old 05-29-2014, 02:04 PM
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That's a kick a** receiver.

Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Infinity P363's, PC351, P153's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #11817 of 14430 Old 05-29-2014, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post

That's a kick a** receiver.


so much better seperation then my Pio Elite. just an overall better soundfield. and with Apple Airplay and Squeezebox (internet) and internet radio on the Denon the amound of music i have to listen to is insane.

Panasonic 65" plasma*

Denon 4520* 

PSB T45* PSB B15* PSB C60*

Dual PSA XS30* Dual PSA XS15se*

Squeezbox*

Niles ZR-6 6 Source, 6 room Audio Reciever*

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post #11818 of 14430 Old 05-29-2014, 03:26 PM
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I would think a modified form of A: XS30/15e COUCH 15se/XS30 would be better since the corner placement excites the maximum number of modes in the room. The 30's have more output, them being closest to corner may work better. The xs15se could give the nearfield effect. Moving them closer to door could work well if the door is likely to closed most of the time and someone doesn't stub their toes while walking out the door smile.gif
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post

With my two new XS15se's being delivered tomorrow becuase of the smaller size i'v got two new placement ideas. as noted a few posts ago i can go

option A... XS15se / XS30 COUCH XS30 / XS15se (there are no more end tables to consider as shown in the drawing picture. lol

option B... XS30 COUCH XS30 / XS15se moving the last 15 either spot B (as pictured.) note the knee wall(corner loaded)

option C.. XS30 COUCH XS30 with the two 15's at both B locations.....

with-out measurments i can tell you nearfield sides of couch the bass is at peak(spl meter) spot left of B corner door.... weakest hallway.

pic number two shows both spots B....






*
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Fronts: KEF Q900's, KEF 600c, Rear: Mirage OMD-15's, SW: PSA triple XS30se+miniDSP
AVR: Denon 3313CI, Amp: Emotiva XPA-5
Sources: HTPC (Jriver Media Center), Logitech Squeezebox Touch, PS3, Xbox 360,
TV: Sony KDL-55W900A
Unraid Server with 30TB+
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post #11819 of 14430 Old 05-29-2014, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flydeep View Post

I would think a modified form of A: XS30/15e COUCH 15se/XS30 would be better since the corner placement excites the maximum number of modes in the room. The 30's have more output, them being closest to corner may work better. The xs15se could give the nearfield effect. Moving them closer to door could work well if the door is likely to closed most of the time and someone doesn't stub their toes while walking out the door smile.gif

thanks flydeep.wink.gif

Panasonic 65" plasma*

Denon 4520* 

PSB T45* PSB B15* PSB C60*

Dual PSA XS30* Dual PSA XS15se*

Squeezbox*

Niles ZR-6 6 Source, 6 room Audio Reciever*

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post #11820 of 14430 Old 05-29-2014, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury View Post

With my two new XS15se's being delivered tomorrow becuase of the smaller size i'v got two new placement ideas. as noted a few posts ago i can go

option A... XS15se / XS30 COUCH XS30 / XS15se (there are no more end tables to consider as shown in the drawing picture. lol

option B... XS30 COUCH XS30 / XS15se moving the last 15 either spot B (as pictured.) note the knee wall(corner loaded)

option C.. XS30 COUCH XS30 with the two 15's at both B locations.....

with-out measurments i can tell you nearfield sides of couch the bass is at peak(spl meter) spot left of B corner door.... weakest hallway.

pic number two shows both spots B....






*

Hey Merc, just curious, from your pic I noticed your mains are several inches back from your entertainment center, I mean the front baffles of your speakers are recessed in relation to the front of the ET center. Is that an illusion or am I crazy. Doesn't that affect the your dispersion pattern? You can tell me to go to Hello but I always thought the mains should be pulled out and in front of that ET center edge. I'm sorry this has nothing to do with your sub placement, I'm just a stickler for things, like I said it could be an illusion. Please no offense intended. Being in this hobby for a long time I was always taught to try and have nothing in between your mains if possible. In 99% of peoples homes this is impossible. I don't know why I'm rambling like this, sorry, like I said I'm not trying to tell you how to do anything, just noticed your mains behind the front edge of ET center. smile.gif
Cheers Jeff

j_nordi
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Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

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Xs30 , Velodyne Sms 1 In Room Bass Correction Kit With Included Microphone , Denon Avr 3313ci Receiver , Denon Avr 4520ci Receiver , Power Sound Audio , Xv15 , Power Sound Audio Triax , Room Equilizer Wizard Rew , Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver
Gear in this thread - 3313ci by PriceGrabber.com

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