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Old 06-01-2014, 04:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post

Guys, I had a thought about getting the other two XV15SEs and wanted to get your input on this thought, how about getting a single XV30FSE to put behind the MLP about 8-10' away. The back of my room (the wall) has right in the center of it a corner type wall and then an opening into another small area, I was thinking I could put a XV30F right there and being there is a small dividing wall as I mentioned and the 30 being front firing I should get plenty of output from the rear behind the MLP, what do you think or just get the other two XV15SEs. I'm open to all suggestions, I need to decide soon. TIA
Cheers Jeff


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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post

Guys, I had a thought about getting the other two XV15SEs and wanted to get your input on this thought, how about getting a single XV30FSE to put behind the MLP about 8-10' away. The back of my room (the wall) has right in the center of it a corner type wall and then an opening into another small area, I was thinking I could put a XV30F right there and being there is a small dividing wall as I mentioned and the 30 being front firing I should get plenty of output from the rear behind the MLP, what do you think or just get the other two XV15SEs. I'm open to all suggestions, I need to decide soon. TIA
Cheers Jeff


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Old 06-01-2014, 07:47 AM
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This will provide incredible tactile kick if you sit right in front of it.  Do it!  Get four of them !!:D

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Old 06-01-2014, 08:50 AM
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Roughly 15 wide 25 long i have dual xv15 now
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Old 06-01-2014, 08:54 AM
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[IMG]http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/441694/width/200/height/ Older pic of my room my xv15 are located where my rw are
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Old 06-01-2014, 09:07 AM
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Old 06-01-2014, 09:25 AM
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Sorry for the late reply, my weekends are usually tied up with the kids.

I definitely think the se version makes an improvement for the XS30, the question is how much of an improvement, whether it is big enough for you to spend $500. Another way to look at it is, for another $400 you actually get a new XS15se which will definitely make a difference. I can tell qualitatively it is a big improvement in the first few days. On Friday morning I packed the dual XS30 and about 5 hrs later I had set up the new se versions at the same spots as before and turned them on. I immediately noticed a difference. Adding a third sub which I previously did not have made the difference quite perceptible.

In a week or two I should have some quantitative plots to highlight the differences for similar set-up, it hope it helps you.
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oh boy. should i update my 30's.... lol

keep us/me posted!

wife walked in the LR spend 5 min and left. she did not notice. lol

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Old 06-01-2014, 09:29 AM
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Thank you Bear. My plan is to have the third sub somewhere in the near-field. To make the new addition less of an impact to wifey, I placed it right below the TV. I will wait until the dust of the new subs settle down and then try few placement options, I do not have too many options as it is. Wifey did not notice the third addition immediately, it took her about 2 hrs before she realized there is a third one at which point I started giving some strange explanations which did not make sense to me either but she gave up half way through my reasoning smile.gif

I am also little concerned about the kids and their wandering hands if the subs (and the dials) are within their easy reach. I may first need to train to my 10 month old not to touch daddy's speakers.
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Congrats on the upgrades and the addition of the third sub.  Do you plan on putting one on the other side of the room.....near field?  Should help with smoothing a lot.

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Old 06-01-2014, 09:31 AM
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Thanks Mike, for now I am letting them play with the day-to-day usage for the weekend. I am thinking whether it may help if I play something through the day for couple of days while I am at work, turn off my Amp so the speakers don't shout but let the subs rumble at lower volume.
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Just wait until you get about 7 days on them, they are a BEAST!!!!!!!!

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Old 06-01-2014, 09:33 AM
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Yep, those are KEF Q900's and Q600c for the center, like them so far smile.gif It is a pity that the subs work for the Q900 are getting replaced by the XS30se's since they have a decent bass by themselves.
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Congrats! Are those KEF towers?

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Old 06-01-2014, 09:35 AM
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The setup looks nice and cozy smile.gif
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post


Fronts: KEF Q900's, KEF 600c, Rear: Mirage OMD-15's, SW: PSA triple XS30se+miniDSP
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Old 06-01-2014, 09:41 AM
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Tom - That is interesting. I didn't know what the dolby pro logic mode actually did. Couple of questions on the AVR modes -

1. On my AVR Denon 3313CI, I like the multi-channel out option where each of the speakers have a stereo imaging effect and sounds great for music (I have four towers, 2 KEF Q900 and 2 Mirage OMD-15). The only part that I currently do not like is, the subs seem to get cut-off/down with this mode. Any suggestion on how to bring back the subs into mix with this mode?

2. what actually does the dynamic EQ mode on the AVR do? I think it boosts up the sub vol artificially at lower volumes, right? I currently have it turned off but I am thinking it may be good for regular cable watching.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Check the polarity on your mains. (actually just rotate the phase control on the sub completely and try the sub again against the LEFT and then the RIGHT speaker)


If that checks out, try measuring the left by itself and then the right.

Also, try one of your "pro logic" modes too. That may combine the L/R tones and redirect them to the center. This will allow you an easy way to do a center channel + sub graph.

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Old 06-01-2014, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flydeep View Post

Sorry for the late reply, my weekends are usually tied up with the kids.

I definitely think the se version makes an improvement for the XS30, the question is how much of an improvement, whether it is big enough for you to spend $500. Another way to look at it is, for another $400 you actually get a new XS15se which will definitely make a difference. I can tell qualitatively it is a big improvement in the first few days. On Friday morning I packed the dual XS30 and about 5 hrs later I had set up the new se versions at the same spots as before and turned them on. I immediately noticed a difference. Adding a third sub which I previously did not have made the difference quite perceptible.

In a week or two I should have some quantitative plots to highlight the differences for similar set-up, it hope it helps you.


Thanks. having just added two XS15se I believe my LR and wife have more bass then it can handle. lol as far as I can tell (my ears) two XS15se's would probably be enough for most. I know the dual XS15's added to the XS30's adds quite a bit of headroom. or what i think is headroom?.

on reference it seems to go either go so low or so loud that the bass allmost disapears into another frequency where it sounds different to the ear and your body starts to feel it more...... hard to explain.

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Old 06-01-2014, 11:45 AM
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Ok guys I feel I have spent enough time listening to different source content to give a good opinion on the XV15 vs XV15se...

First off the XV15se is a significant improvement with music...the sub seems more controlled and accurate during transients. Playing different types of music from rock, jazz, electronic, and rap, the SE is on another level. Just clean articulate and powerful.

That being said I feel the original XV15 is better with ULF content in movies. I can tell after viewing several flicks the original XV15 definitely digs much lower with authority. PSA clamped the output on the SE heavily starting around 25hz. I have a hard time believing the XV15se is anywhere near capable of 108db @ 20hz 2m rms. I may be wrong, or something might be up with my measuring gear, but I am pretty sure everything is spot on in that department. This is my data to show what I am talking about.

Ok so I tried simulating the exact same setup and conditions when I did a max spl graph of Dual XV15's a year ago. No eq, No phase adjustments, No off setting levels on one sub...just everything level matched, Ypao disabled, 80hz crossover, Sub only.

Here is the graph I just took today. This is basically max output before compression starts between dual XV15se & tri XV15se:



As you can see the third XV15 is doing a much better job lifting the lowend with around a 8db increase around 20hz. At the room modal peak of 32hz they are identical, but on average I am netting a 3-4db gain and a smoother response. Now I can obviously tweak some things to get the graph even flatter by bumping up the gain on the 3rd sub, that knocks the peak clear down, but I am trying to do a apples to apples comparison here...so no tricks. smile.gif

Here is the graph I took a year ago of Dual XV15. This is max output allowing compression to run wild. Not exactly the same criteria as above but I feel we should be able to make a good generalization here.



You can see it is clear Dual XV15 is severely outperforming my 3 XV15se from 30hz and below(from a output standpoint)...dual XV15se vs XV15se is not even on the same planet below 20hz. When I had just the 3 XV15's before the upgrade, I was reference capable down to 15hz, now I am not even close. However if we limit THD to 10%, the SE wins everywhere.


In the end the SE is solid upgrade in sound quality and accuracy. They definitely have cleaner output everywhere, with less THD at the levels measured above. I do notice that the SE have no coloration to the bass, just clean output, but at the sacrifice of low end output. Do I feel it was worth the cost to upgrade, meh I am still on the fence. The reason being I thought the old driver sounded fine and I find myself enjoying movies more then music these days which is the exact opposite from a year ago. Not saying the SE is not good with movies, but I do notice less below 20hz during certain parts of movies. Is it a deal breaker, no not for me, but it may be for some.

In short, If you are strictly a movie buff, then keep the old drivers, but if you primarily listen to music with occasional movie time, go with the SE. While I feel the SE is a upgrade, you are giving at one end to gain everywhere else.
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Old 06-01-2014, 11:55 AM
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^^ very good report.
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Old 06-01-2014, 11:58 AM
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basshead81 thanks for an Honest review......

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Old 06-01-2014, 12:04 PM
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basshead: Although I don't have the XV15, I do have the XS30, so I suspect the same plus and minus aspects could be attributed to the dual-opposing drivers. I have very little complaints about my XS30, especially for movies. It's a surprising powerhouse. My only reservation was its capability with music. While good to very good with a lot of my music, it is not quite what I wanted for all of my music. Then again, I'm far more anal about music than movie LFE.

I love the idea that the "se" series has tightened up and cleaned the sub's response and has lower distortion. As you mentioned, this bodes well for music, but perhaps not as well for movie LFE. And thanks for taking the time to describe your experience. However, no one knows how a longer break-in period would modify your findings. I think it would be a good idea to revisit this a month or two down the road.

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Old 06-01-2014, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

PSA clamped the output on the SE heavily starting around 25hz. I have a hard time believing the XV15se is anywhere near capable of 108db @ 20hz 2m rms. I may be wrong, or something might be up with my measuring gear, but I am pretty sure everything is spot on in that department. This is my data to show what I am talking about.

Ok so I tried simulating the exact same setup and conditions when I did a max spl graph of Dual XV15's a year ago. No eq, No phase adjustments, No off setting levels on one sub...just everything level matched, Ypao disabled, 80hz crossover, Sub only.

You can see it is clear Dual XV15 is severely outperforming my 3 XV15se from 30hz and below(from a output standpoint)...dual XV15se vs XV15se is not even on the same planet below 20hz. When I had just the 3 XV15's before the upgrade, I was reference capable down to 15hz, now I am not even close. However if we limit THD to 10%, the SE wins everywhere.


Hi basshead, I shorted things a bit to try to address a couple of points.

How are you measuring THD?

1)Trying to compare data sets from a year ago is difficult. With different setting it might be impossible. I would be careful not to make too many assumptions there.
2)Trying to determine the CEA-2010 output capabilities based off an in room compression sweep would alos be very difficult. I'm not sure how you would try to correlate that into a CEA-2010 burst outside? In any event we are confident in our measurement equipment and our CEA-2010 data. We will likely be measuring different subwoofers/speakers almost weekly. Your free to stop by this summer some time and join in(bring your test rig). I guarantee you it would be a lot of fun..smile.gif
3)dual XV15 will not out perform dual XV15se in any performance metric except possibly how each model interacts with a specific room transfer function which will mainly show up <20hz. I know what a PIA it can be but if you could take the subs outside for measurements that would be best. As they say, in room....you are just measuring the room for the most part.
4) if you are showing a 7-8dB drop in max output (during compression sweep)between (2)XV15s and (3) XV15se (with the 2 XV15 being the higher) you either have major inaccuracies in the test setup, unaccounted for variable(s), or something else is seriously amiss. The SE versions maintain *more* linearity in compression sweep. There are gremlins at work..smile.gif

Tom V.
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Old 06-01-2014, 02:57 PM
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Hi Tom,

I am not disagreeing with your cea-2010 data. If I came across that way my apologies, but from what testing I have done(I will admit it may be primative), the old drivers are out performing the new drivers in peak all out ouput from 15-20hz. I ran my distortion tests using RTA analysis inside of REW. The SE model is
much cleaner from what I have seen no doubt. I am confident that Ricci testing will reveal PSA's to be accurate, but in my room for whatever reason, I doubt a single XV15se will do 108db @ 20hz.

Actually I will do a test of just 1 XV vs 2 & 3 and post the graph.

Again my goal here is not to be biased...I am just posting what I have seen over the last 3-4weeks with the new drivers. I like what I am hearing but I am not sure I like the steep roll off. I believe in a few emails we exchanged you even said the original driver would have more output with source content in the 10-20hz range. Well my graphs are showing that to the T. Like I said my graph of dual XV15's was absolute max spl, fully compressing. The graph I did today of dual & tri SE were taken only to the point where compression started. So yea I am sure there is more output left. I still do not think 3 XV15se will match the output of dual XV15 around 16hz. Trust me I want to be proven wrong here smile.gif

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Old 06-01-2014, 03:46 PM
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Sorry to change the subject but how are the cabinet vibrations with the xv15se? I want to place a speaker on top.....should I be worried?


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Old 06-01-2014, 04:02 PM
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Sorry to change the subject but how are the cabinet vibrations with the xv15se? I want to place a speaker on top.....should I be worried?


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No issue...I watched pompeii @ -2 lastnight and nothing vibrated off the top. I use them as end tables, so they have various things sitting on top of them. smile.gif

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Old 06-01-2014, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post

basshead: Although I don't have the XV15, I do have the XS30, so I suspect the same plus and minus aspects could be attributed to the dual-opposing drivers. I have very little complaints about my XS30, especially for movies. It's a surprising powerhouse. My only reservation was its capability with music. While good to very good with a lot of my music, it is not quite what I wanted for all of my music. Then again, I'm far more anal about music than movie LFE.

I love the idea that the "se" series has tightened up and cleaned the sub's response and has lower distortion. As you mentioned, this bodes well for music, but perhaps not as well for movie LFE. And thanks for taking the time to describe your experience. However, no one knows how a longer break-in period would modify your findings. I think it would be a good idea to revisit this a month or two down the road.

Good point Dsrussell, I will take new measurements in a month and post my findings. The next go around I will do a max spl sweep up to the point where the subs will not increase in output. I will measure starting with 1 sub and show the changes by adding a second and third.

Also another thing to note, on the Pulse server scene I am showing a 5-7db increase with the new SE drivers using my spl meter, which I posted a few pages back. With 3 XV15's I recorded 107-108db (uncorrected) peaks on the server scene and 112-114db(uncorrected) peaks with the SE upgrades. So the more I think about it, this conflicts with my data I previously posted. Perhaps I was not pushing the new drivers close to thier limits yet? I would think REW measurements would be a more accurate analysis of performance. Although I have have to keep in mind that I am using a 80.00 umm-6 mic, it would be nice to have a spec labs setup then I would feel a bit better about my findings. I am almost wondering if there is some inaccuracy going on at higher levels with this type of measuring mic.

Of course 3rd party testing is going to reveal the real results but I figured I would attempt to post my report of what I have found in the mean time.

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Old 06-01-2014, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Hi Tom,

I am not disagreeing with your cea-2010 data. If I came across that way my apologies, but from what testing I have done(I will admit it may be primative), the old drivers are out performing the new drivers in peak all out ouput from 15-20hz. I ran my distortion tests using RTA analysis inside of REW. The SE model is
much cleaner from what I have seen no doubt. I am confident that Ricci testing will reveal PSA's to be accurate, but in my room for whatever reason, I doubt a single XV15se will do 108db @ 20hz.

Actually I will do a test of just 1 XV vs 2 & 3 and post the graph.

Again my goal here is not to be biased...I am just posting what I have seen over the last 3-4weeks with the new drivers. I like what I am hearing but I am not sure I like the steep roll off. I believe in a few emails we exchanged you even said the original driver would have more output with source content in the 10-20hz range. Well my graphs are showing that to the T. Like I said my graph of dual XV15's was absolute max spl, fully compressing. The graph I did today of dual & tri SE were taken only to the point where compression started. So yea I am sure there is more output left. I still do not think 3 XV15se will match the output of dual XV15 around 16hz. Trust me I want to be proven wrong here smile.gif

Hi Bass,

When you say "output in the 10-20hz range" are you referring to the measured FR in your room or the clean output capabilities per CEA-2010? In your room, the two versions could be close...as I said....we're measuring the room as much as the sub(s). But if we take the room out of the equation the SE versions have a decided advantage in the 16hz-32hz range. Something around 2dB on average iirc.

Please don't take this the wrong way as I really like seeing *all* the data I can. Whenever Josh posts something new I feel like its Christmas. Doesn't matter if it is a little $200 cube, a $10,000 unit or anything in between..smile.gif But I spent *years* trying to find a way to take repeatable, in room THD. There's just too much going on in room. There has been one professional review that I can remember that ever found repeat-ability in room----Tom Nousaine. And don't ask him how much his test rig cost..smile.gif And with regards to measurement rig setup and all the variables here....we have spent an entire DAY troubleshooting gremlins in the system after setting up outside. And I mean literally 6 to 8 hours. And these problems would often never be apparent if we didn't have a "control" device/product to measure. There's so much that can change from yesterday to today in terms of mic calibration, sound card settings, preamp stuff, gain structure, software setting, etc, etc....it is almost endless. Jim and I probably have 3000(?) hours outside now and another 1000-2000 inside. We have very high resolution gear and mics. And the first thing we do after setting up for a round of measurements? We measure a "control" sample. Something we have on hand that we have measured dozens if not hundreds of times. And we do this even if we spent all day yesterday measuring. So for someone to say here is in room data from a year ago with around the same settings(maybe?). There are just so many potential variables its tough to make any conclusion imo.

I don't have much/any experience with rew or other shareware programs so its tough to make specific recommendations. But I can say if you are finding worse performance from the SE driver in any measurement metric being discussed here (except how the FR relates to each specific room transfer)....there is something wrong. The measurement are wrong, your settings are off, or your SE products are non performing the way they should be. My advice would be to try to separate FR, compression and THD data collection. They are really three different things. If you trying to do (sigh) in room thd and compare it to outside GP burst data....at the very least use the same test tones..smile.gif

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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Old 06-01-2014, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Good point Dsrussell, I will take new measurements in a month and post my findings. The next go around I will do a max spl sweep up to the point where the subs will not increase in output. I will measure starting with 1 sub and show the changes by adding a second and third.

Also another thing to note, on the Pulse server scene I am showing a 5-7db increase with the new SE drivers using my spl meter, which I posted a few pages back. With 3 XV15's I recorded 107-108db (uncorrected) peaks on the server scene and 112-114db(uncorrected) peaks with the SE upgrades. So the more I think about it, this conflicts with my data I previously posted. Perhaps I was not pushing the new drivers close to thier limits yet? I would think REW measurements would be a more accurate analysis of performance. Although I have have to keep in mind that I am using a 80.00 umm-6 mic, it would be nice to have a spec labs setup then I would feel a bit better about my findings. I am almost wondering if there is some inaccuracy going on at higher levels with this type of measuring mic.

Of course 3rd party testing is going to reveal the real results but I figured I would attempt to post my report of what I have found in the mean time.

Hi Bass,

I think the key here is to separate FR, compression, and "max output capabilities", into 3 distinct metrics. Also, remember that you can run compression checks and see a certain range "compress" while other areas of the operational bandwidth still have a ways to go. This is especially true in room with all the possible modes/nulls.

Seriously, how far are you from us like 6-8 hours? Maybe I can talk Jim into a big BBQ at the shop type of thing later this summer. You can show me some tips on rew inroom, Jim can setup outside, and we can have bear123 at the grill..smile.gif

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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Old 06-01-2014, 06:05 PM
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basshead: Interesting difference from the Pulse scene with dB measurements to today's measurements with REW. And while everyone is highly interested in Ricci's testing, I think real-world in-home testing is a good metric, even though rooms will vary wildly. I want to thank you for all the effort you have put into this. I know there is a lot more fun things that you could be doing, so I just wanted to tell you that your efforts are appreciated.
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Hi Bass,

I think the key here is to separate FR, compression, and "max output capabilities", into 3 distinct metrics. Also, remember that you can run compression checks and see a certain range "compress" while other areas of the operational bandwidth still have a ways to go. This is especially true in room with all the possible modes/nulls.

Seriously, how far are you from us like 6-8 hours? Maybe I can talk Jim into a big BBQ at the shop type of thing later this summer. You can show me some tips on rew inroom, Jim can setup outside, and we can have bear123 at the grill..smile.gif

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Good point! I think the issue may be is my dual XV15 graph from a year ago was max spl and the one I took today was only up to the point where compression started. that could be leaving quite a bit on the table.

for example here is the base response and max spl from 1 year ago of dual XV15's.





Here is a graph from today of a reference level sweep(MV -0), then I added +5 to the subs, then another +3 for a total of 8db hot. Looks to me compression is starting so I did not think much more headroom was available around 20hz?

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Oh and yes a barbecue would be cool. I am about 4hrs away.

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basshead: Interesting difference from the Pulse scene with dB measurements to today's measurements with REW. And while everyone is highly interested in Ricci's testing, I think real-world in-home testing is a good metric, even though rooms will vary wildly. I want to thank you for all the effort you have put into this. I know there is a lot more fun things that you could be doing, so I just wanted to tell you that your efforts are appreciated.

It is my pleasure!! I was going to do a few other measurements and post them but my wife's car broke down about 45min out of town so I had to cut the testing session short and take care of that situation. I kind of enjoy using REW. I really want to use this powerful too a lot more then I get to, but life just does not allow it. I am sure it is the same for others. Anywho I do plan on doing some further testing and will report back. smile.gif

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Ok so I DERP'D big time. I just went back thru and checked all my subs gain settings. the gain on the third sub mid wall was set 2 notches above my other 2 subs. Evidently I must of bumped the gain when moving the sub. So what you are seeing above is that sub reaching its limits before the other 2. My apologies folks...geez. I will go start over and report back. redface.gif
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Old 06-01-2014, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post


I spent *years* trying to find a way to take repeatable, in room THD. There's just too much going on in room. There has been one professional review that I can remember that ever found repeat-ability in room----Tom Nousaine. And don't ask him how much his test rig cost..smile.gif And with regards to measurement rig setup and all the variables here....we have spent an entire DAY troubleshooting gremlins in the system after setting up outside. And I mean literally 6 to 8 hours. And these problems would often never be apparent if we didn't have a "control" device/product to measure. There's so much that can change from yesterday to today in terms of mic calibration, sound card settings, preamp stuff, gain structure, software setting, etc, etc....it is almost endless. Jim and I probably have 3000(?) hours outside now and another 1000-2000 inside. We have very high resolution gear and mics. And the first thing we do after setting up for a round of measurements? We measure a "control" sample. Something we have on hand that we have measured dozens if not hundreds of times. And we do this even if we spent all day yesterday measuring. So for someone to say here is in room data from a year ago with around the same settings(maybe?). There are just so many potential variables its tough to make any conclusion imo.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

+1,000

BTW I am taking in room CEA-2010 data from all of the commercial subs now. I think I started with the original XV15. They are buried in the static graphs section at DB. Even with everything as standardized as possible each sub reacts a bit differently in room. Some seem to be a little less or more affected by nulls and standing waves at the listening position, or see more or less gain in the deep bass. Also since CEA-2010 limits are based on distortion thresholds and those limits may be defined by different harmonic makeup for each sub and the room acoustics have the effect of "equalizing" the output of the subwoofer including its harmonic distortion, the CEA-2010 or distortion limited output measured in one room is not directly translatable to other rooms or even outdoors.
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Old 06-01-2014, 07:47 PM
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Ok so I DERP'D big time. I just went back thru and checked all my subs gain settings. the gain on the third sub mid wall was set 2 notches above my other 2 subs. Evidently I must of bumped the gain when moving the sub. So what you are seeing above is that sub reaching its limits before the other 2. My apologies folks...geez. I will go start over and report back. redface.gif


Mistakes happen my friend, good of Tom to chime in so you find your mishap, and thanks again for all that you do, keep it up.
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