Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 397 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #11881 of 31463 Old 06-01-2014, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post

what subs
you have dual XV15's now.? whats your room size??


Yes I have dual XV15SEs now and I'm going to be either adding two more or going with the XV30FSE. My room is 14' W X 27 L X 8' H, I was planning on putting the XV30F about 8' behind the MLP which would be fairly close to the back wall. If I go with the two more XV15s they would be behind the MLP to the right and left of MLP about 6-8' away. I'm really leaning towards the XV30F. What do you think.
Tom you could chime in as well.
Cheers Jeff
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post #11882 of 31463 Old 06-01-2014, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post

Yes I have dual XV15SEs now and I'm going to be either adding two more or going with the XV30FSE. My room is 14' W X 27 L X 8' H, I was planning on putting the XV30F about 8' behind the MLP which would be fairly close to the back wall. If I go with the two more XV15s they would be behind the MLP to the right and left of MLP about 6-8' away. I'm really leaning towards the XV30F. What do you think.
Tom you could chime in as well.
Cheers Jeff

Id probably stick with the added XV15se.... 4 would be killer. that said. Tom V or other members here would know more then I...... i was ready to drop another $$$$ on a pair of XS30se to go with my dual XS30'S. bass bear and TomV suggested a pair of XS15se at a nice savings..... turns out. they were right.... iv'e got the perfect amount of subs and the 15's are small enough to hide.

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post #11883 of 31463 Old 06-01-2014, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post

Id probably stick with the added XV15se.... 4 would be killer. that said. Tom V or other members here would know more then I...... i was ready to drop another $$$$ on a pair of XS30se to go with my dual XS30'S. bass bear and TomV suggested a pair of XS15se at a nice savings..... turns out. they were right.... iv'e got the perfect amount of subs and the 15's are small enough to hide.

Well I just got an email from my good friend Jim at PSA and he totally agrees with you in sticking with the original plan of adding two more XV15SEs. He said almost the same thing you did, four subs would be ideal;) Thanks Merc, appreciate your input.smile.gif
Cheers Jeff
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post #11884 of 31463 Old 06-01-2014, 08:46 PM
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I switched from dual XS30 to triple XS30se last Friday. I did some quick checks for the triples with the first two positions same as the xs30 versions. The REW response I got from the new duals were very similar to the non-se versions extending down to 10 Hz.These measurements were done at around 75 dB and do not know what the difference will be at higher levels. In a week or two I am hopeful of having some measurements where I can compare these them back to back. One thing I can say is that the new se versions sound 'tighter' and cleaner. Maybe look at the spectrogram and higher harmonics could give an indication of the more subtle differences?
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Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post

basshead: Although I don't have the XV15, I do have the XS30, so I suspect the same plus and minus aspects could be attributed to the dual-opposing drivers. I have very little complaints about my XS30, especially for movies. It's a surprising powerhouse. My only reservation was its capability with music. While good to very good with a lot of my music, it is not quite what I wanted for all of my music. Then again, I'm far more anal about music than movie LFE.

I love the idea that the "se" series has tightened up and cleaned the sub's response and has lower distortion. As you mentioned, this bodes well for music, but perhaps not as well for movie LFE. And thanks for taking the time to describe your experience. However, no one knows how a longer break-in period would modify your findings. I think it would be a good idea to revisit this a month or two down the road.

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post #11885 of 31463 Old 06-01-2014, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post

Well I just got an email from my good friend Jim at PSA and he totally agrees with you in sticking with the original plan of adding two more XV15SEs. He said almost the same thing you did, four subs would be ideal;) Thanks Merc, appreciate your input.smile.gif
Cheers Jeff

Oh yea I would do 4 also...just make sure they are level matched and the gains do not get bumped when you move them. rolleyes.gif

It would be nice if gain controls clicked for each adjustment so they do not move easily. Come to find out when I turned the sub and pushed it back towards the wall, the LFE cable pushed up against it and moved the gain lol.

I will say there is much more involved with setting up multiples. It is very easy to make a simple mistake as I did, but thanks to Tom he got me sctratching my head. However that is why I like posting graphs and sharing information....hopefully more PSA owners will do the same here in the near future and we can all learn some things. smile.gif
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post #11886 of 31463 Old 06-01-2014, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by flydeep View Post

I switched from dual XS30 to triple XS30se last Friday. I did some quick checks for the triples with the first two positions same as the xs30 versions. The REW response I got from the new duals were very similar to the non-se versions extending down to 10 Hz.These measurements were done at around 75 dB and do not know what the difference will be at higher levels. In a week or two I am hopeful of having some measurements where I can compare these them back to back. One thing I can say is that the new se versions sound 'tighter' and cleaner. Maybe look at the spectrogram and higher harmonics could give an indication of the more subtle differences?

Wow! I simply can't imagine 3 XS30se's. I have one XS30 and it shakes the walls silly.

That is some impressive in-room response you're getting, flydeep. Glad to hear that the new versions have tightened up and many have immediately noticed that. Not saying the older versions are somehow inadequate, because I'm highly impressed by my PSA for movie LFE. I have a feeling I might be impressed with the new version's musical capability. Thanks for sharing.

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post #11887 of 31463 Old 06-01-2014, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Hi Bass,

I think the key here is to separate FR, compression, and "max output capabilities", into 3 distinct metrics. Also, remember that you can run compression checks and see a certain range "compress" while other areas of the operational bandwidth still have a ways to go. This is especially true in room with all the possible modes/nulls.

Seriously, how far are you from us like 6-8 hours? Maybe I can talk Jim into a big BBQ at the shop type of thing later this summer. You can show me some tips on rew inroom, Jim can setup outside, and we can have bear123 at the grill..smile.gif

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I'm only 2.5 hours away I can bring homemade cookies and strawberry rubarb pie:)

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post #11888 of 31463 Old 06-02-2014, 12:28 AM
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Ok so I have 2 seats in the front row but I sit in the left one. But I went ahead and measured the right seat as well which turned to be flatter across the board than the left seat and doesn't have that nasty null at 80. I tried many many combinations of phase, xo, and distance and have it narrowed down to either 8' distance and phase 0 or 12' distance and phase 100% I overlayed both graphs for both seats and honestly there's pros and cons to each one. So I decided to do some real world tests and popped in some bass scenes on movies that I know the sound well and switched between the 8' and 12' And wouldn't you know it, again they came out equal. One sounded better in this movie and the other setting sounded better in another movie.

Unfortunately I don't have the graphs on this computer as my sister in law needed her laptop but told me she wouldn't delete anything so I will post them later this week hopefully.

So through all this I think the only thing I can confirm is that I've gone crosseyed...

Let me ask you guys this, when should I get concerned as far as a drop in DB's? 10db, 5db, 15? And i'm talking between 30 and 90hz. 5db doesn't really mean much below 20hz right?

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post #11889 of 31463 Old 06-02-2014, 03:35 AM
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Originally Posted by mijotter View Post


Let me ask you guys this, when should I get concerned as far as a drop in DB's? 10db, 5db, 15? And i'm talking between 30 and 90hz. 5db doesn't really mean much below 20hz right?

Play some music with bass kind of loud.  Now turn up your sub in your avr by 6 dB.  I will bet this will make a huge difference.  IMO, more than a 3 dB variance will be noticeable, hence the common +/- 3dB standard for FR.

 

Solution:  Dual subs!  :D

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post #11890 of 31463 Old 06-02-2014, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by mijotter View Post

Ok so I have 2 seats in the front row but I sit in the left one. But I went ahead and measured the right seat as well which turned to be flatter across the board than the left seat and doesn't have that nasty null at 80. I tried many many combinations of phase, xo, and distance and have it narrowed down to either 8' distance and phase 0 or 12' distance and phase 100% I overlayed both graphs for both seats and honestly there's pros and cons to each one. So I decided to do some real world tests and popped in some bass scenes on movies that I know the sound well and switched between the 8' and 12' And wouldn't you know it, again they came out equal. One sounded better in this movie and the other setting sounded better in another movie.

Unfortunately I don't have the graphs on this computer as my sister in law needed her laptop but told me she wouldn't delete anything so I will post them later this week hopefully.

So through all this I think the only thing I can confirm is that I've gone crosseyed...

Let me ask you guys this, when should I get concerned as far as a drop in DB's? 10db, 5db, 15? And i'm talking between 30 and 90hz. 5db doesn't really mean much below 20hz right?

This statement insinuates that you have a dedicated theater room, correct? However, you keep saying you have no option to move your sub. Can you tell us why you can't move your sub??
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post #11891 of 31463 Old 06-02-2014, 12:00 PM
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This statement insinuates that you have a dedicated theater room, correct? However, you keep saying you have no option to move your sub. Can you tell us why you can't move your sub??

Yes I have a dedicated Theatre room. I cannot move or add another sub because of the size of the room. The XS30se is in a custom cabinet I built for under the screen that houses all my movies, avr, bd player, as well as shelves for other things down the road.

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post #11892 of 31463 Old 06-02-2014, 12:32 PM
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Put one in the back of the room.?

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post #11893 of 31463 Old 06-02-2014, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by mijotter View Post

Yes I have a dedicated Theatre room. I cannot move or add another sub because of the size of the room. The XS30se is in a custom cabinet I built for under the screen that houses all my movies, avr, bd player, as well as shelves for other things down the road.

I may have asked already, but could you move the seating? Sometimes just a foot front/back can make a noticeable improvement.

You can check this by moving the measurement mic forward or back (to simulate ear level at the new seating position) and sweeping again.

Tom V.
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post #11894 of 31463 Old 06-02-2014, 04:40 PM
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Hey Tom,

I have an XS30, along with SC-67. I am finally getting around to calibrating this sub and have downloaded REW for the use of the sine waves and bought an SPL meter. You had gave me these instructions earlier:

"I would start with the subwoofer level control in the receiver at its mid point. Then turn the sub gain all the way down. Place the meter as close to ear level as possible at your seating position----C weighting. Now, start with say a 35hz test tone/sine wave and turn the sub gain up just enough so it registers 70dB on the meter. Stop the tone, write down on the notepad. Now, I'd start at every 5hz. 80,75,70,60 and so on...down to say 15hz."

Am I missing anything? So I just plug my laptop into my AVR via HDMI and run those waves are various intervals and record what the SPL meter is displaying? Does it matter that I have already ran the auto cal. in MCACC?

Sorry, I'm extremely new to all of this.... maybe a point by point instructions would be great smile.gif

Anyone else, please feel free if you can help out.
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post #11895 of 31463 Old 06-02-2014, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jer181 View Post

Hey Tom,

I have an XS30, along with SC-67. I am finally getting around to calibrating this sub and have downloaded REW for the use of the sine waves and bought an SPL meter. You had gave me these instructions earlier:

"I would start with the subwoofer level control in the receiver at its mid point. Then turn the sub gain all the way down. Place the meter as close to ear level as possible at your seating position----C weighting. Now, start with say a 35hz test tone/sine wave and turn the sub gain up just enough so it registers 70dB on the meter. Stop the tone, write down on the notepad. Now, I'd start at every 5hz. 80,75,70,60 and so on...down to say 15hz."

Am I missing anything? So I just plug my laptop into my AVR via HDMI and run those waves are various intervals and record what the SPL meter is displaying? Does it matter that I have already ran the auto cal. in MCACC?

Sorry, I'm extremely new to all of this.... maybe a point by point instructions would be great smile.gif

Anyone else, please feel free if you can help out.

You don't have to worry about manually noting each test frequency if you are using REW. Instead of the sine waves just use the SWEEP function in REW. Keep the output levels low(75-80dB) and use a sweep around 5 seconds or so. You will need to connect the soundcard output of the PC to one of the analog inputs on your receiver. I don't have much hands on with REW but I believe you can use the SPL meter as he microphone.

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post #11896 of 31463 Old 06-02-2014, 04:47 PM
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I'm only 2.5 hours away I can bring homemade cookies and strawberry rubarb pie:)

That works, we'll try to make this happen late summer(ish)..smile.gif


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post #11897 of 31463 Old 06-02-2014, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

You don't have to worry about manually noting each test frequency if you are using REW. Instead of the sine waves just use the SWEEP function in REW. Keep the output levels low(75-80dB) and use a sweep around 5 seconds or so. You will need to connect the soundcard output of the PC to one of the analog inputs on your receiver. I don't have much hands on with REW but I believe you can use the SPL meter as he microphone.

Tom V.
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I don't have RCA out on my laptop. Would I just use a headphone to RCA or something?
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post #11898 of 31463 Old 06-02-2014, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by jer181 View Post

I don't have RCA out on my laptop. Would I just use a headphone to RCA or something?

also I have the SPL meter you suggested, HDE-J11, which has a USB output. I wonder if I could hook that directly up to the computer as well?....
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post #11899 of 31463 Old 06-02-2014, 06:01 PM
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I don't have RCA out on my laptop. Would I just use a headphone to RCA or something?

You will need a 3.5mm to RCA adapter most likely.

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post #11900 of 31463 Old 06-02-2014, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by jer181 View Post

also I have the SPL meter you suggested, HDE-J11, which has a USB output. I wonder if I could hook that directly up to the computer as well?....

i'll need to google that. When I recommended that particular SPL meter I didn't consider you may need to use it as the mic for REW. Let me check on this for you.

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post #11901 of 31463 Old 06-02-2014, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

I may have asked already, but could you move the seating? Sometimes just a foot front/back can make a noticeable improvement.

You can check this by moving the measurement mic forward or back (to simulate ear level at the new seating position) and sweeping again.

Tom V.
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I cannot, the front seats are butted right up against the riser for the second row.

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post #11902 of 31463 Old 06-02-2014, 06:30 PM
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I cannot, the front seats are butted right up against the riser for the second row.

If the sub can be moved, nor the seating you can tame peaks with EQ, but for severe nulls the last resort may be some form of bass trap.

Before getting too far into that though I would try to make absolutely certain your measurements are accurate. Try to measure each speaker individually, and then the sub individually.

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post #11903 of 31463 Old 06-02-2014, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

i'll need to google that. When I recommended that particular SPL meter I didn't consider you may need to use it as the mic for REW. Let me check on this for you.

Tom V.
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It appears the 814 I have on hand has a 3.5mm output jack. I'll track down an adapter to make sure this works tomorrow morning.

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post #11904 of 31463 Old 06-02-2014, 06:50 PM
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I cannot, the front seats are butted right up against the riser for the second row.

You should post some photos of your room.  Some fresh sets of eyes might think of an option you are overlooking.

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That works, we'll try to make this happen late summer(ish)..smile.gif


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I am in for this!!
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post #11907 of 31463 Old 06-02-2014, 08:28 PM
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Tom Bear and Ray, I'm in on that myself, maybe you could pick me up Ray since you know where I live biggrin.gif I will have my second Total Hip Replacement done and be all healed by then and I'm the closest to PSA I think, about a little over an hour.
OK guys reco me a boom tripod mic stand that accepts the screw on Audyssey or a SPL meter, do I need to get an adapter for this. I have a nice tripod camera stand now but I would like one with the boom so I can just swing the mic where I want it. Oh and one that doesn't cost an arm and leg. Do you que? I do, let's do it guys, sounds like a great time.smile.gif
Cheers Jeff
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post #11908 of 31463 Old 06-02-2014, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

You don't have to worry about manually noting each test frequency if you are using REW. Instead of the sine waves just use the SWEEP function in REW. Keep the output levels low(75-80dB) and use a sweep around 5 seconds or so. You will need to connect the soundcard output of the PC to one of the analog inputs on your receiver. I don't have much hands on with REW but I believe you can use the SPL meter as he microphone.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

If the Laptop and AVR both have hdmi then you can use that which bypasses the sound card. I found it to be much easier to set up REW this way.

Getting Started with REW: A Step by Step Guide -->http://www.roomeqwizard.com/REWhelp.pdf

Mini DSP Tutorial by Neutro --> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...g-minidsp.html
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post #11909 of 31463 Old 06-02-2014, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

But I can say if you are finding worse performance from the SE driver in any measurement metric being discussed here (except how the FR relates to each specific room transfer)....there is something wrong. The measurement are wrong, your settings are off, or your SE products are non performing the way they should be. My advice would be to try to separate FR, compression and THD data collection. They are really three different things. If you trying to do (sigh) in room thd and compare it to outside GP burst data....at the very least use the same test tones..smile.gif

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Tom, is the slope the same below 20hz between the XV and xvse models? Could that be what bass is running into? Overall max output could be greater below 20hz for the xvse on a max output chart, but if the rolloff is steeper, it could be more difficult to attain without eq.
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post #11910 of 31463 Old 06-02-2014, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Tom, is the slope the same below 20hz between the XV and xvse models? Could that be what bass is running into? Overall max output could be greater below 20hz for the xvse on a max output chart, but if the rolloff is steeper, it could be more difficult to attain without eq.

I think you might be on to something here....hmm

Getting Started with REW: A Step by Step Guide -->http://www.roomeqwizard.com/REWhelp.pdf

Mini DSP Tutorial by Neutro --> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...g-minidsp.html
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Denon Avr 3313ci Receiver , Denon Avr 4520ci Receiver , Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver , Power Sound Audio , Power Sound Audio Triax , Room Equilizer Wizard Rew , v1500 , V3600i , Velodyne Sms 1 In Room Bass Correction Kit With Included Microphone , Xs30 , Xv15

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