Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 398 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #11911 of 29950 Old 06-03-2014, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Tom, is the slope the same below 20hz between the XV and xvse models? Could that be what bass is running into? Overall max output could be greater below 20hz for the xvse on a max output chart, but if the rolloff is steeper, it could be more difficult to attain without eq.

Oh absolutely. Under 20hz I agree....as the room transfer function will have a big role to play as well. Also, the maximum output capabilities <20hz will be reached with program material at very loud volume levels...but you may not reach them with "thd checks". The latter depends on many variables.

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post #11912 of 29950 Old 06-03-2014, 11:12 AM
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Cool. My second XS30 has been ordered and shipped! Great deal on a "b-stock" that I couldn't refuse!

Hope my wife likes the new end table...

Barbie Pop-Star is going to bring down the walls!!!
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post #11913 of 29950 Old 06-03-2014, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Oh absolutely. Under 20hz I agree....as the room transfer function will have a big role to play as well. Also, the maximum output capabilities <20hz will be reached with program material at very loud volume levels...but you may not reach them with "thd checks". The latter depends on many variables.

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Thanks for the response tom. But just for clarification, did you mean to say they have the same roll off below 20hz between the XV and xvse or different?

I didn't know which question "oh absolutely" was answering. smile.gif
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post #11914 of 29950 Old 06-03-2014, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Thanks for the response tom. But just for clarification, did you mean to say they have the same roll off below 20hz between the XV and xvse or different?

I didn't know which question "oh absolutely" was answering. smile.gif

Sorry I wasn't clear. They have different roll-offs <20hz. But both products will reach their maximum clean output levels when dictated by the input signal.

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post #11915 of 29950 Old 06-03-2014, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Sorry I wasn't clear. They have different roll-offs <20hz. But both products will reach their maximum clean output levels when dictated by the input signal.

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Thanks Tom.

So if I understood correctly, the xvse has a steeper rolloff below 20hz as compared to the xv.

Basshead, this is probably explains what you've been experiencing.
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post #11916 of 29950 Old 06-03-2014, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Sorry I wasn't clear. They have different roll-offs <20hz. But both products will reach their maximum clean output levels when dictated by the input signal.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Thanks Tom.

So if I understood correctly, the xvse has a steeper rolloff below 20hz as compared to the xv.

Basshead, this is probably explains what you've been experiencing.

Makes their graphs look correct then. They gave up depth for spl.
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post #11917 of 29950 Old 06-03-2014, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

i'll need to google that. When I recommended that particular SPL meter I didn't consider you may need to use it as the mic for REW. Let me check on this for you.

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I don't actually have a mic. The only reason I download REW is because you ad recommended it for the sine waves or test tones that it has.

What is the difference in using plugging the laptop in the the AVR via HMDI or using the 3.5mm to RCA the the AVR like you suggested?
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post #11918 of 29950 Old 06-03-2014, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

If the Laptop and AVR both have hdmi then you can use that which bypasses the sound card. I found it to be much easier to set up REW this way.

Okay, if doing that, and my SPL meter has a USB connection, shouldn't I be able to hook that directly up to my computer and have it record the measurements in REW? Not sure how accurate it would be as it was a mic. though, as that wasn't really my intention. But if it works all the better.
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post #11919 of 29950 Old 06-03-2014, 05:14 PM
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Guys, how about that boom mic stand with tripod function fo ruse with the Audy mic and a SPL meter. TIA
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post #11920 of 29950 Old 06-03-2014, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by sputter1 View Post

They gave up depth for spl.

For me the jury is still out on this.  I have more work to do on setting up my subs a bit better(I think) and improving my eq, but I have recorded 108dB at 16 Hz from my dual XV15se.  So far I can maintain 110 from just under 20 to past crossover, but I feel like I can gain some more headroom with better integration, as I can exceed 115 at certain frequencies.  This is from 3 meters as well.

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post #11921 of 29950 Old 06-03-2014, 06:54 PM
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For me the jury is still out on this.  I have more work to do on setting up my subs a bit better(I think) and improving my eq, but I have recorded 108dB at 16 Hz from my dual XV15se.  So far I can maintain 110 from just under 20 to past crossover, but I feel like I can gain some more headroom with better integration, as I can exceed 115 at certain frequencies.  This is from 3 meters as well.
Boosting below tune is a risky approach...just be careful. I doubt that any damage as a result would be covered under warranty.

I understand that your leveraging the fact that you don't listen at reference...but the scenario you are toying with is exactly how upgradeitus begins....I remember when I first started in this hobby, I said I would NEVER watch movies more than -18db...and I did exactly as you, boosted below tune. What I found is that the mv dial kept creeping up, and soon my ported sub couldn't handle it. I went to sealed at ending up tearing the spider (not covered under warranty) of the driver with boost.

I guess my point is, if you left it in its natural rolloff, you would likely never be prone to damaging the driver and less prone to upgradeitius. My .02
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post #11922 of 29950 Old 06-03-2014, 07:40 PM
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+1 Dom
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post #11923 of 29950 Old 06-03-2014, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post

Guys, how about that boom mic stand with tripod function fo ruse with the Audy mic and a SPL meter. TIA

I personally picked up a mic stand at my local guitar store, plus an attachment like this. http://www.amazon.com/CM01-Camera-Digital-Recorder-Adapter/dp/B001GWCC4I

I think I paid like $40 for my stand. It's an "on stage stand" brand.. I'm sure I could have paid more or less if I wanted. It's all they had in stock. lol biggrin.gif
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post #11924 of 29950 Old 06-03-2014, 08:38 PM
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I'm only 2.5 hours away I can bring homemade cookies and strawberry rubarb pie:)

i grew up in toledo, now live in columbus, so i'm about 2 hours away from tom and gang.  it just so happens that i LOVE subs, LOVE BBQ, and LOVE rhubarb pie!!!!  oh, and for the few of you that are in steeler country....i LOVE my steelers too!  so basically, just try to keep me away from this GTG!!   talk about a perfect storm.....geez.  

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post #11925 of 29950 Old 06-03-2014, 08:51 PM
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This is probably one of the most insightful and experienced comments I have read in a while. It hasn't been a month and I am finding myself getting going down that road. Hope my triple XS30se's last me for a while, I am broke to think about any new additions anytime soon smile.gif
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Boosting below tune is a risky approach...just be careful. I doubt that any damage as a result would be covered under warranty.

I understand that your leveraging the fact that you don't listen at reference...but the scenario you are toying with is exactly how upgradeitus begins....I remember when I first started in this hobby, I said I would NEVER watch movies more than -18db...and I did exactly as you, boosted below tune. What I found is that the mv dial kept creeping up, and soon my ported sub couldn't handle it. I went to sealed at ending up tearing the spider (not covered under warranty) of the driver with boost.

I guess my point is, if you left it in its natural rolloff, you would likely never be prone to damaging the driver and less prone to upgradeitius. My .02

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post #11926 of 29950 Old 06-03-2014, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Thanks Tom.

So if I understood correctly, the xvse has a steeper rolloff below 20hz as compared to the xv.

Basshead, this is probably explains what you've been experiencing.

Yes that is what I have experienced. I posted the long term compression sweep graphs of both drivers several pages back...the XVse has a much sharper roll off. I use to be +/-3db down to 16hz, now I am +/-3db down to 20hz. This is no eq, subs in same location, mic in the same spot.
XV


XVse



If you look at the charts both drivers have the same output at 16hz, below that is where XV has a advantage.

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post #11927 of 29950 Old 06-03-2014, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by flydeep View Post

This is probably one of the most insightful and experienced comments I have read in a while. It hasn't been a month and I am finding myself getting going down that road. Hope my triple XS30se's last me for a while, I am broke to think about any new additions anytime soon smile.gif

In my experience, it's the below 20hz that causes the most upgradeitus...once you experience it at a certain volume, you keep wanting more and more of that feeling and soon you're running hot with the subs over reference to get that smile on your face!

 

Reference output above 20hz becomes table stakes after you reach a certain class of sub or subs. It's the ULF that starts to differentiate sub systems IMHO. Having said that, I'm speaking from experience of a relatively small room where ULF is not difficult to produce. For those with very large rooms, for most the focus should be on 20hz reference output, as striving below that starts to become a money pit (unless DIY) and you become slave to a sub farm, or sub monuments! Notice, I never said that was a bad thing either! :cool:

 

The XS30SE's look like a very capable sub that I'm sure is designed very well. You shouldn't have any problems with damaging the drivers as a result. In my case, the amp of my sealed sub had too much power for the driver. They implemented a HPF in the amp, but greedy me really liked the low stuff. I boosted through the HPF, and since the amp was powerful enough, it damaged the driver over time. In my case, it was a slow death and all of a sudden it just stopped working. With the XVSE, Tom likely paired the power so you can't ever get in trouble...unless you start running sine waves at very low frequencies for long periods of time. For the ported subs, not sure if boosting below tune damage is a slow death or an immediate one...

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post #11928 of 29950 Old 06-03-2014, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

In my experience, it's the below 20hz that causes the most upgradeitus...once you experience it at a certain volume, you keep wanting more and more of that feeling and soon you're running hot with the subs over reference to get that smile on your face!

Reference output above 20hz becomes table stakes after you reach a certain class of sub or subs. It's the ULF that starts to differentiate sub systems IMHO. Having said that, I'm speaking from experience of a relatively small room where ULF is not difficult to produce. For those with very large rooms, for most the focus should be on 20hz reference output, as striving below that starts to become a money pit (unless DIY) and you become slave to a sub farm, or sub monuments! Notice, I never said that was a bad thing either! cool.gif

The XS30SE's look like a very capable sub that I'm sure is designed very well. You shouldn't have any problems with damaging the drivers as a result. In my case, the amp of my sealed sub had too much power for the driver. They implemented a HPF in the amp, but greedy me really liked the low stuff. I boosted through the HPF, and since the amp was powerful enough, it damaged the driver over time. In my case, it was a slow death and all of a sudden it just stopped working. With the XVSE, Tom likely paired the power so you can't ever get in trouble...unless you start running sine waves at very low frequencies for long periods of time. For the ported subs, not sure if boosting below tune damage is a slow death or an immediate one...

Fly's room is 6000^3 fwiw.

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post #11929 of 29950 Old 06-03-2014, 11:19 PM
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Thanks basshead.

Dominq - My listening room is about 4200 ft^3 primarily because the living room extends into kitchen beyond the MLP, I sit about 8 ft from the TV and subs. What basshead is referring to is the overall first floor space since this living room extends into other rooms about 1500 ft^3 through two 4ft openings. As basshead said it is fairly a large space to pressurize but surprisingly I can feel the ULF effects (I think) at relatively higher volume with subs around 8-10 dB below reference. As I stand in the room (no couch/chair vibrations) I can feel as though there is a slight wind gust and ears popping feeling smile.gif My intent of getting 3 subs was to try and have one near the MLP for the tactile effect.

When I initially spoke with Tom, I told him that I typically will not exceed my listening levels beyond -20dB from reference but I find myself pushing close to -15dB quite often after the family has gone to sleep. so I hear ya when you say expectations change when you have a capable setup.
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Fly's room is 6000^3 fwiw.
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In my experience, it's the below 20hz that causes the most upgradeitus...once you experience it at a certain volume, you keep wanting more and more of that feeling and soon you're running hot with the subs over reference to get that smile on your face!

Reference output above 20hz becomes table stakes after you reach a certain class of sub or subs. It's the ULF that starts to differentiate sub systems IMHO. Having said that, I'm speaking from experience of a relatively small room where ULF is not difficult to produce. For those with very large rooms, for most the focus should be on 20hz reference output, as striving below that starts to become a money pit (unless DIY) and you become slave to a sub farm, or sub monuments! Notice, I never said that was a bad thing either! cool.gif

The XS30SE's look like a very capable sub that I'm sure is designed very well. You shouldn't have any problems with damaging the drivers as a result. In my case, the amp of my sealed sub had too much power for the driver. They implemented a HPF in the amp, but greedy me really liked the low stuff. I boosted through the HPF, and since the amp was powerful enough, it damaged the driver over time. In my case, it was a slow death and all of a sudden it just stopped working. With the XVSE, Tom likely paired the power so you can't ever get in trouble...unless you start running sine waves at very low frequencies for long periods of time. For the ported subs, not sure if boosting below tune damage is a slow death or an immediate one...

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post #11930 of 29950 Old 06-04-2014, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post


Boosting below tune is a risky approach...just be careful. I doubt that any damage as a result would be covered under warranty.

I understand that your leveraging the fact that you don't listen at reference...but the scenario you are toying with is exactly how upgradeitus begins....I remember when I first started in this hobby, I said I would NEVER watch movies more than -18db...and I did exactly as you, boosted below tune. What I found is that the mv dial kept creeping up, and soon my ported sub couldn't handle it. I went to sealed at ending up tearing the spider (not covered under warranty) of the driver with boost.

I guess my point is, if you left it in its natural rolloff, you would likely never be prone to damaging the driver and less prone to upgradeitius. My .02

I sent my in room response graphs to Tom from before and after eq...he said it should not cause any problems with longevity.  I did boost the 16-20 area to be flat, but would not have done so if reference level was the norm or even an occasional thing.  However, I did demo WoTW pod scene at -5 with my house curve and eq and the subs did not noticeably object....it was very impressive.  They still roll off below 16 so I think the demand to produce very low frequencies is still lower than with the old roll of and original drivers.  I am at the very top of my budget with this setup, and I think it is the most capable I can get for the money I spent for output down to 16 Hz outside of DIY.  Even with DIY I think I would have to go with larger cabs to get much of an improvement.

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post #11931 of 29950 Old 06-04-2014, 06:42 AM
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Ok, I know this is not the miniDSP forum, but hoping to catch someone that may know the answer to this.  I am going to be working some more on dialing in my subs next monday, and I am perplexed a bit by the stereo or mono option on the miniDSP, which is found on the system settings tab.  Up until now I have had the miniDSP in mono mode, with a single input from my AVR to input one, and subs hooked up to output 1 and 3.  With no changes other than toggling from mono to stereo, here is what it does to my response:

 

Obviously, stereo is providing a much superior response with a 3.2 dB increase in output at 20 Hz with no eq, eliminating the dip at 40 Hz, and improving the dip at 80.  The only thing I know to do is to check the individual output level of each sub to see if this is increasing one of the subs output, affecting the FR.  This seems like the most likely scenario.n  I have noticed that one of the subs has to be turned up pretty much 100% gain in order to level match when I calibrated in mono.

 

Although the response is much better in my opinion and will make eq a lot better, I wonder what the drawback, if any, will be.

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post #11932 of 29950 Old 06-04-2014, 06:50 AM
 
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Yes you want it to be in stereo mode. That way you can individually set levels and phase in the dsp for each sub.
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post #11933 of 29950 Old 06-04-2014, 07:06 AM
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Yes you want it to be in stereo mode. That way you can individually set levels and phase in the dsp for each sub.

Oh man, this has me very excited.  I think the red(stereo) response is a drastic improvement in the FR.  I have NO eq boosting to do for a 75 dB eq off this response(maybe a little at 80 Hz), and a much stronger bottom end with no eq!!!  I will have to see what this does to my headroom on a max output sweep.  Right now I am about 110 dB from a hair under 20 Hz up to crossover, but with a lot of compression.  Looks like this might add a lot of headroom.  I can't wait to test it out.

 

Brian, do you know, or recall, if one should use Analog or Digital Input on the system settings tab?  I am currently using analog and have not tried the other.

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post #11934 of 29950 Old 06-04-2014, 07:18 AM
 
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I would say analog. Because the signal is coming out of a preout. The digital signal is already converted to analog
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post #11935 of 29950 Old 06-04-2014, 07:46 AM
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Bear - That is very interesting and I didn't know the stereo and mono options made a difference. Can you please keep us miniDSP users updated on what you find? TIA!
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Ok, I know this is not the miniDSP forum, but hoping to catch someone that may know the answer to this.  I am going to be working some more on dialing in my subs next monday, and I am perplexed a bit by the stereo or mono option on the miniDSP, which is found on the system settings tab.  Up until now I have had the miniDSP in mono mode, with a single input from my AVR to input one, and subs hooked up to output 1 and 3.  With no changes other than toggling from mono to stereo, here is what it does to my response:



Obviously, stereo is providing a much superior response with a 3.2 dB increase in output at 20 Hz with no eq, eliminating the dip at 40 Hz, and improving the dip at 80.  The only thing I know to do is to check the individual output level of each sub to see if this is increasing one of the subs output, affecting the FR.  This seems like the most likely scenario.n  I have noticed that one of the subs has to be turned up pretty much 100% gain in order to level match when I calibrated in mono.

Although the response is much better in my opinion and will make eq a lot better, I wonder what the drawback, if any, will be.

Fronts: KEF Q900's, KEF 600c, Rear: Mirage OMD-15's, SW: PSA triple XS30se+miniDSP
AVR: Denon 3313CI, Amp: Emotiva XPA-5
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post #11936 of 29950 Old 06-04-2014, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by flydeep View Post

Bear - That is very interesting and I didn't know the stereo and mono options made a difference. Can you please keep us miniDSP users updated on what you find? TIA!

I sure will.  The graphs i posted were 1/12th smoothed..here they are un-smoothed which indicates an even stronger improvement:

 

 

3-3.5 dB increase below 25 Hz...again this may be due to increasing the output on one of the subs.

 

A 15 dB increase in the 40 Hz null at the peak, an average of 3-10 dB increase out to 70 Hz.

 

A 5 dB increase on the null at 80 Hz.  

 

In addition to making my eq much easier, I am anxious to see if this actually increases my max headroom.  I will put up graphs comparing current max output if I see an increase.

 

Can't wait till Monday now :).  Oh, another thing for miniDSP users, and I will be trying this as well:  miniDSP allows a maximum of 6 PEQ filters.  However, you can load this filter set onto each of the output sides individually for each sub, then measure your dual subs combined response.  You can then send the eq'd response to the eq of REW, and add up to six more PEQ filters on the input side of the miniDSP.  So you can actually do a total of 12 bands of PEQ.

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post #11937 of 29950 Old 06-04-2014, 09:40 AM
 
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Just a tip though. The less filters you use the better
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post #11938 of 29950 Old 06-04-2014, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by mijotter View Post

Yes I have a dedicated Theatre room. I cannot move or add another sub because of the size of the room. The XS30se is in a custom cabinet I built for under the screen that houses all my movies, avr, bd player, as well as shelves for other things down the road.

Well, if you are unable (or unwilling) to move your sub or your MLP, I guess you're just going to have to live with that null.

If you are so hung up on the aesthetic of having your sub inside a cabinet, essentially eliminating any better placement options, all I can say is I hope you at least are happy with how it looks. cool.gif
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post #11939 of 29950 Old 06-04-2014, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

Well, if you are unable (or unwilling) to move your sub or your MLP, I guess you're just going to have to live with that null.

If you are so hung up on the aesthetic of having your sub inside a cabinet, essentially eliminating any better placement options, all I can say is I hope you at least are happy with how it looks. cool.gif

As I have said before I am UNABLE. Yes I am coming to the realization of living with that null because of the size and makeup of my room but I wanted to see if there were any ways I could HELP it at all.

I am not hung up on anything, if I was I wouldn't even be here looking for any and all options outside of what I know I can or can't do. So I'll repeat it one more time, it has nothing to do with aesthetics like you wish to believe and have used to make yourself sound one step higher than me, but with the inability to move the sub more than an inch in either direction. So while I do appreciate your infinite knowledge in that post it is something I have known for a while now but thank you for your concern and help smile.gif
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post #11940 of 29950 Old 06-04-2014, 11:57 AM
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I was after that ULF and I bought a Triax, loved it so much but wanted more, didn't want to spend $3500 to add dual Cordovan Triaxs. I also had a nasty null at 40-80Hz and tried many things and the only solution was multiple subs. I can live without the the ULF stuff, just like the OP said it can lead to some serious insanity. eek.gif I will soon be very happy with four XV15Ses and forget about the crazy ULFs, just from dual V15SEs I am extremely happy and the null is gone and FR is much smoother and will be even more so very soon.wink.gif
Thanks for the Mic adapter and stank Timo, and thank you Domingez for that excellent post.
Cheers Jeff
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